"Lost" Series Finale "The End" Sunday 9-11:30pm NO SPOILERS UNTIL AIRED

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Via

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2009
4,695
4
0
I want my six years back.

Not really - I enjoyed the ride. But the final wrapup was pretty lame.

The purgatory angle was predicted back in season 2.

I wish they had gone with the whole "Hurley is a mental patient imagining all of this" plotline. That would have been easiler to accept.
 

meltdown75

Lifer
Nov 17, 2004
37,558
7
81
the Lost defenders... they're everywhere... in the office, in my golf league, on facepage... can't... escape...
 
Oct 19, 2000
17,861
4
81
The purgatory angle was predicted back in season 2.

Yeah, it was predicted as the island itself being purgatory. Turns out the island was real. There was a purgatory, but not in how it was predicted....not even close.

As for the ending wreckage shots during the credits, I never once thought it was part of the story, and I'm surprised so many thought it was. I saw it merely as an homage to the beginning of the series six years ago....something to show with the credits as a throwback to the faithful viewers.
 

CoinOperatedBoy

Golden Member
Dec 11, 2008
1,809
0
76
As for the ending wreckage shots during the credits, I never once thought it was part of the story, and I'm surprised so many thought it was. I saw it merely as an homage to the beginning of the series six years ago....something to show with the credits as a throwback to the faithful viewers.

That's how I saw it, too. Just a nostalgic view of 815, possibly, as others have said, to be found by future visitors. It wasn't really revelatory in any way.
 

Kev

Lifer
Dec 17, 2001
16,367
4
81
Thanks for making an honest effort to actually address the points I've made. I like how I take the effort, when prompted, to enumerate the issues I have with the show and its ending, and the response, generally speaking, completely ignores what I've said and basically just calls me a poop head. GG ATOT.

Maybe you disagree with my subjective opinions or my theories about what went on behind the scenes, but naturally you can't objectively defend the actual narrative problems in LOST. You, as a group, either pretend they aren't there or try to shift focus onto the people who complain about them. Fine, maybe you don't care about the holes or the turn the show took halfway through, but don't act like I'm the asshole for noticing these things.

I haven't seriously called anybody an idiot for disagreeing with me in this thread, although I've gotten frustrated that it seems some of you straight up don't read what I've typed and yet respond anyway. You rely on logical fallacies and personal attacks to fuel your defense. So basically, fuck off. You fail at any kind of intellectual discourse.

I pretty much agree with 100% of what you say, but isn't it obvious to you yet that the people you are arguing with don't care about your reasons for not liking the show? The answers were obviously not important to them, so they do not fault the writers for not providing the answers.
 

BD2003

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
16,815
1
76
Kev said:
isn't it obvious to you yet that the people you are arguing with don't care about your reasons for not liking the show? The answers were obviously not important to them, so they do not fault the writers for not providing the answers.

Exactly. This isn't a philosophical or political debate, or a scientific thesis defense. It's a discussion of a work of art. There is no objective standard by which it's to be measured.

It's like you're arguing that historical inaccuracies made Shakespeares Julius Caesar a fail - but those massive inaccuracies don't take away from it AT ALL, because it was never meant to be a god damn history lesson.

I read entirely what CoinOperatedBoy said, and I found little worth responding to. Those things that you see as narrative problems simply don't bother me. I don't need to defend anything. You're never going to convince anyone that liked it that they shouldn't.

Believe it or not, there are people that actually enjoyed the show and find there's still a great deal of pleasure to be had discussing and analyzed what "happened", not the narrative fucking structure and it's flaws. You're just like a troll sitting in the corner thats constantly jumping up and down screaming "but it's stupid....waaah...narrative problems waahhh!!!".

It's tiring. I know I shouldn't have expected more, but for the love of god give it a rest already. WE GET IT.
 

blackdogdeek

Lifer
Mar 14, 2003
14,454
10
81
i was sitting on the bus today on the way in to work thinking about the final scene with kate and jack and how touching it was. kate had been so tough for all this time and she finally tells jack she loves him and pleads with him to tell her that she will see him again. i felt just as moved as i did watching that scene on sunday.

love it or hate it, you have to admit they did a good job producing moments like these. that's why i loved this show. i still remember when sawyer revealed to jack that he met christian in a bar in sydney and how christian wanted so badly to be able to tell his son how proud he was of him and jack's emotional though restrained expression and how that one moment bonded jack and sawyer and how moved i was by that.

i will miss this show. even if you hated it, you have to admit that it was much better than so much of the other programming on tv today, especially considering that it was a serial drama which is something we don't see very often anymore.
 

CoinOperatedBoy

Golden Member
Dec 11, 2008
1,809
0
76
I pretty much agree with 100% of what you say, but isn't it obvious to you yet that the people you are arguing with don't care about your reasons for not liking the show? The answers were obviously not important to them, so they do not fault the writers for not providing the answers.

Yeah, I realize this. But this has kind of raged on a few different fronts:

1. Objective analysis of narrative specifics
2. Subjective impressions of the overall story arc
3. Theories about the writing process

I see it was a mistake to get into (2) and (3) at all, even though our subjective opinions are based a lot on the objective quality of the show, and we can use those identifiable qualities to make some assumptions about the writers and their goals as well. I guess I felt like if I could take the first approach and prove that LOST had some narrative deficiencies, at least the defenders might understand my feelings on the other parts, even if it doesn't change their own minds.

Instead, they seem more butt hurt that people realize there were actual problems with LOST, and talking about them is anathema. That's some serious fanboy behavior, and yet my opinion should be discarded as that of a "hater". Makes no sense to me. And I've been one of the biggest LOST dorks around.

But anyway, even with the errors or omissions of LOST, some people like the ending and some don't and I don't think any amount of discussion is going to change those opinions significantly. Nor can I (or anyone) definitively say what happened with the writing on this show, even if I think my guesses are informed by interviews, supplementary material, and the show itself. So yeah, poor decision to even talk about those things.
 

CoinOperatedBoy

Golden Member
Dec 11, 2008
1,809
0
76
Exactly. This isn't a philosophical or political debate, or a scientific thesis defense. It's a discussion of a work of art. There is no objective standard by which it's to be measured.

This is such a ridiculous fallacy. Please think about this. I won't address the rest of your personal attack or poor analogy.
 

BD2003

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
16,815
1
76
CoinOperatedBoy said:
This is such a ridiculous fallacy. Please think about this. I won't address the rest of your personal attack or poor analogy.

I believe the idea that you can objectively measure the quality of writing or any other art form on ANY level is completely and utterly fallacious. I think we can both agree that this difference in opinion is obviously irreconcileable, so let's just leave it there.
 

CoinOperatedBoy

Golden Member
Dec 11, 2008
1,809
0
76
I believe the idea that you can objectively measure the quality of writing or any other art form on ANY level is completely and utterly fallacious. I think we can both agree that this difference in opinion is obviously irreconcileable, so let's just leave it there.

I'd rather not. You can drop it if you like, but I'm interested in hearing your opinion on experts and critics in art fields. What about these people who have studied a particular form, are aware of its history and its present state, and provide professional opinions on quality in that context? Do you honestly feel that they cannot make any objective judgment about art?

And as an extension of that, if we cannot objectively measure quality or cannot rely on anyone to do so, do you also believe it's pointless to revere particular artists regarded as masters and innovators, or to hold up certain work as masterpieces? Can we not say on some level that Rembrandt was a better painter than a technically unskilled amateur who has only lifted a brush for the first time? As a viewer, perhaps you might prefer or have some personal resonance with the work of the amateur, but I find it odd to suggest that we cannot objectively identify Rembrandt as a superior craftsman in this hypothetical scenario.

I'm honestly curious about your stance on this. I'm not trying to cast myself as a serious art critic in regards to LOST or trick you into validating my opinion. I just don't understand this kind of relativism in critique and it seems counter to common sense, but I'm willing to entertain the suggestion.
 

BD2003

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
16,815
1
76
CoinOperatedBoy said:
I'd rather not. You can drop it if you like, but I'm interested in hearing your opinion on experts and critics in art fields. What about these people who have studied a particular form, are aware of its history and its present state, and provide professional opinions on quality in that context? Do you honestly feel that they cannot make any objective judgment about art?
No, they cannot make an objective judgement. To believe they can is to completely misunderstand what the word objective means. They can make a very informed subjective opinion, but the relevance of that opinion is more likely to lie in how much of that experience aligns with yours. Their opinions may be more sophisticated and nuanced in the context of the field of art criticsm, but that's really only relevant to other art critics. I personally find modern art with a colored red box on a white canvas to be a complete and utter joke, but many art critics find such works incredibly interesting - it's not that I'm missing something, or that they're seeing something I'm not. It neither. Art by it's very nature is subjective, since it must be interpreted and receieved by the viewer before it has any meaning. 2 + 2 will always be 4 no matter who is doing the adding. THAT'S objective.


And as an extension of that, if we cannot objectively measure quality or cannot rely on anyone to do so, do you also believe it's pointless to revere particular artists regarded as masters and innovators, or to hold up certain work as masterpieces? Can we not say on some level that Rembrandt was a better painter than a technically unskilled amateur who has only lifted a brush for the first time? As a viewer, perhaps you might prefer or have some personal resonance with the work of the amateur, but I find it odd to suggest that we cannot objectively identify Rembrandt as a superior craftsman in this hypothetical scenario.

There is certainly the ability for many people reach a consensus of sorts on subjective quality. But it's still a shared opinion. That doesn't take away from it at all, but that doesn't raise it to the level of an objective math problem. It's the fact that many people agree that Rembrandt was a master that makes him one, not the art itself. Different people and generations will come to different conclusions.

I'm honestly curious about your stance on this. I'm not trying to cast myself as a serious art critic in regards to LOST or trick you into validating my opinion. I just don't understand this kind of relativism in critique and it seems counter to common sense, but I'm willing to entertain the suggestion.[/QUOTE]
 
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Tweak155

Lifer
Sep 23, 2003
11,448
262
126
i was sitting on the bus today on the way in to work thinking about the final scene with kate and jack and how touching it was. kate had been so tough for all this time and she finally tells jack she loves him and pleads with him to tell her that she will see him again. i felt just as moved as i did watching that scene on sunday.

love it or hate it, you have to admit they did a good job producing moments like these. that's why i loved this show. i still remember when sawyer revealed to jack that he met christian in a bar in sydney and how christian wanted so badly to be able to tell his son how proud he was of him and jack's emotional though restrained expression and how that one moment bonded jack and sawyer and how moved i was by that.

i will miss this show. even if you hated it, you have to admit that it was much better than so much of the other programming on tv today, especially considering that it was a serial drama which is something we don't see very often anymore.

Even the "touching" moments didn't matter anymore when you found out they were dead. Little too late for that.

EDIT:

With as much as they left us in the dark about, they could have just left us in the dark that they were in purgatory. What is one more thing to add to the list?
 
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BD2003

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
16,815
1
76
I have however, objectively determined that it is borderline impossible to respond to a multi-point post on an iPhone.

I understand that you may be coming at this from a writers perspective. I'm not. Things that bother you I simply don't notice or don't care.

Think about it in terms of music. I'm not a musician, but I can appreciate music. I know nothing about music theory, playing an instrument, or any such things. Still, I just feel a certain way about some music, even if I can't explain it in terms of notes and harmony. Should this invalidate my opinion on music? I dont think so, although musicians and critics may find my analysis lacking. But I will likely find theirs as well, as they're referencing things I don't understand or care about.

I certainly think there is room for a great deal of crossover, and it's likely that critics and amateurs will often find the same things pleasing for the same underlying reasons, but neither side has a monopoly on what is or isn't quality.
 
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blackdogdeek

Lifer
Mar 14, 2003
14,454
10
81
Even the "touching" moments didn't matter anymore when you found out they were dead. Little too late for that.

EDIT:

With as much as they left us in the dark about, they could have just left us in the dark that they were in purgatory. What is one more thing to add to the list?

what do you mean? they weren't dead except in the flash sideways. everything on the island happened in real life. when they died in real life then they ended up in the flash sideways.
 

Tweak155

Lifer
Sep 23, 2003
11,448
262
126
what do you mean? they weren't dead except in the flash sideways. everything on the island happened in real life. when they died in real life then they ended up in the flash sideways.

All of the love connections never made it off the island... so it was all invalid.

All dudes and a chick made it off. And the chick liked the dead dude.
 

blackdogdeek

Lifer
Mar 14, 2003
14,454
10
81
All of the love connections never made it off the island... so it was all invalid.

All dudes and a chick made it off. And the chick liked the dead dude.

jack and kate's relationship occurred off the island before they went back to the island. penny and desmond were re-united after desmond left the island. they sailed all over the world together before desmond went back to the island. we have no idea what happens to desmond after jack dies saving the island.
 

A Casual Fitz

Diamond Member
May 16, 2005
4,654
1,018
136
It's tiring. I know I shouldn't have expected more, but for the love of god give it a rest already. WE GET IT.

You might... but many others clearly don't. Props to CoinOperatedBoy for continuing to argue the logical fallacy that Lost became.
 

Tweak155

Lifer
Sep 23, 2003
11,448
262
126
jack and kate's relationship occurred off the island before they went back to the island. penny and desmond were re-united after desmond left the island. they sailed all over the world together before desmond went back to the island. we have no idea what happens to desmond after jack dies saving the island.

Ok? They died as our last notion of what happened. It didn't END that way. They tried to end it with some buttery purgatory version. What does it matter what happened previously?
 

BD2003

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
16,815
1
76
Ok? They died as our last notion of what happened. It didn't END that way. They tried to end it with some buttery purgatory version. What does it matter what happened previously?

Well, think about it. In real life, what does anything that we do matter? We are all going to die in the end. Even if your actions while alive had an impact, the heat death of the universe will make sure any of that means nothing in the end either.

But LOST was a world where those things did matter. That light that Jack saved was presumably the same light that Christian walked into in the end. In the lost fantasy, Jack appears not only to have saved the world, but the afterlife and in a sense, all of existence. In that fantasy, his actions DID matter.

He did this without truely understanding why, something we all have to do in the throught our lives. My favorite scene in the entire series was near the very end, and it's significance was only truely apparent after you knew they were in the afterlife. The scene where Kate approaches a confused Jack at the end of the concert with a smile and a twinkle in her eye. Jack is standing there and just loses it and proclaims "what is happening to me???", but Kate already knew what he didn't. That he saved us all, that it DID matter. It was a look of gratitude, of love, of the way a sort of condescending way a parent looks at a child that doesn't understand what she does but will eventually. With the suspension of disbelief required to enjoy any work of fantasy, it was an absolutely moving and beautiful moment.

It was moments like that which made the series so magnificent. If all of the questions were answered, if the "light" was just an alien artifact, that would have been an empty moment. If you were just focusing on the "quality" of the writing, you might have completely missed the emotional impact.
 

CoinOperatedBoy

Golden Member
Dec 11, 2008
1,809
0
76
No, they cannot make an objective judgement. To believe they can is to completely misunderstand what the word objective means. They can make a very informed subjective opinion, but the relevance of that opinion is more likely to lie in how much of that experience aligns with yours. Their opinions may be more sophisticated and nuanced in the context of the field of art criticsm, but that's really only relevant to other art critics. I personally find modern art with a colored red box on a white canvas to be a complete and utter joke, but many art critics find such works incredibly interesting - it's not that I'm missing something, or that they're seeing something I'm not. It neither. Art by it's very nature is subjective, since it must be interpreted and receieved by the viewer before it has any meaning. 2 + 2 will always be 4 no matter who is doing the adding. THAT'S objective.

I'm referring to observable properties of the work itself. In terms of painting, you can examine color palette, characteristics of brush stroke, perspective, subject choice, etc., and how deftly the artist employs them. You can separate an analysis of these techniques from a subjective opinion on their result. With your red-box-on-blank-canvas example, one could definitively say that it took less technical skill than a realistic portrait, and have reasons to back that up. This judgment doesn't necessarily inform the emotional impact, underlying meaning, or value of the work in any other context, but is nonetheless a valid observation.


There is certainly the ability for many people reach a consensus of sorts on subjective quality. But it's still a shared opinion. That doesn't take away from it at all, but that doesn't raise it to the level of an objective math problem. It's the fact that many people agree that Rembrandt was a master that makes him one, not the art itself. Different people and generations will come to different conclusions.

I think you're reducing critique to an emotional response, and tangling that up with critical assessment. I'm not talking about looking at a piece of art as a whole and being able to definitively say, "This is good" or "This is bad." But one can say, "This artist employed a realistic use of color and texture," or "This work displays a flawless use of perspective to show depth," and that will always hold measurably true.


Think about it in terms of music. I'm not a musician, but I can appreciate music. I know nothing about music theory, playing an instrument, or any such things. Still, I just feel a certain way about some music, even if I can't explain it in terms of notes and harmony. Should this invalidate my opinion on music? I dont think so, although musicians and critics may find my analysis lacking. But I will likely find theirs as well, as they're referencing things I don't understand or care about.

See above. I feel as though you're making my point. You might have a personal impression of music, but you don't understand it from a technical point of view. An expert or experienced musician would, and therefore has a basis on which to make objective judgments.

Example: Someone with a good ear can identify a challenging melody and explain how a guitarist played it impressively. You might not like how it sounds. These two ideas are not at odds, but if you were to say that the guitarist did not play properly, you would be demonstrably wrong. Your subjective opinions are equally valid, but an objective critique is available to the expert where it is not to you, even if you don't care.

In terms of LOST, I feel even a non-writer can identify narrative deficiencies and be provably correct. It doesn't take an accomplished author or screenwriter to find some of its plot holes. Can we take those issues and make some judgments about overall quality? I think we can. Can we conclude definitively "LOST sucks" or not? Probably not. How much an individual enjoys the show despite its flaws will always be variable. My point is only that the people who love the show should not deny that those things exist by trying to say the show is immune to this kind of criticism.
 
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