LOTR: TTT Discussion only... likes and dislikes *SPOILERS*

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jjones

Lifer
Oct 9, 2001
15,425
2
0
Originally posted by: tedthebear
I am a huge Tolkien fan and I read the trilogy probably five times in my life so:

I really liked Fellowship of the Ring very much and went back to see it twice. But The Two Towers left me dissatisfied and I won't go back a second time to see it. This time around Jackson changed too much of the story for my taste and what he invented was tedious and no where near as good as what he left out. IMHO, there was too much Helm's Deep and not enough Fangorn. This movie was obviously directed at the Game Boy crowd with its over emphasis on battles.
Yes, Faramir was a shock if you had read the books, and I honestly doubt that the Nazgul would have let Frodo get away with the ring after he offered it to him...
The Helm's Deep sequence went on and on and on...yawn. And where did the elves come from? That wasn't in the book I don't think. Where were the trees that Gandalf drove the orcs under???

What I did like:

Gollum! He was wonderful, my precious!
Nazgul
Balrog again!
Treebeard, except during the ent attack on Isenguard. That looked fake. The ents wading through the water really looked like miniatures to me. Jackson should have kept the camera's POV on the ground looking UP at the ents, so that they always seemed huge like trees.

I gave FOTR an A. I give TTT a B-.

Still, I think Jackson has done a far better job than to be expected from Hollywood.
I agree in almost every regard except I will be seeing it a second time and probably a third. The first showing of FOTR I found myself comparing it too much to the book and it took a second showing to enjoy it as a movie. The same for TTT.

Like everyone, I didn't like the whole Faramir episode and WTF was the point of going to Osgiliath? Same for Aragorn's premature ending. Both completely unnecessary. Would have liked to see less of all the women and children at Helm's Deep and more of Fangorn Forest. The Entmoot and the decision to invade Isengard was better in the book and the change there seemed pointless as well.

The elves showing up at Helm's Deep was okay, acceptable at least, but the part that seemed completely out of whack was when Gandalf shows up with Eomer. I thought Eomer only had a couple of hundred riders with him. How does he show up with the thousands he seemingly had?

I really disliked the change and lessened impact of Fangorn Forest. The Huorns were an integral part of the book and gave the role the forest played a much darker presence and impact. I don't know why it was changed; the CG for it would have been accomplished easily enough because even in the books Tolkein devoted very little time to describing the movements of the Huorns; they moved en masse and at Helm's Deep they just showed up with the dawn.

All in all, I am disappointed in it in that I guess I will never see a faithful rendition of LOTR done by Hollywood. I'll qualify this by saying that although there were some unavoidable changes in FOTR, I feel PJ kept faithfully to the story of the first book. In TTT there were too many plot changes to say he remained faithful and the worst part of it is that the changes were completely unnecessary.

I'll still enjoy the movies for the terrific movies that they are and they are infinately better than Bakshi's attempt to bring the books to the big screen.

 

bentwookie

Golden Member
Aug 3, 2002
1,771
0
0
Originally posted by: kami
TTT is now estimated at around $101 million after 5 days. Fellowship of the Ring was only around $75 million at this point!

about $25 million in disappointed viewers
 

kami

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
17,627
5
81
I think Jackson is doing a good job with what he has to work with.
No kidding. People are way too hard on him.

As a movie audience observing a film adaptation of a book, we sometimes are a bit too eager in dismissing changes in the film from the book it's based on as a big mistake and that it ruins the movie.... That the director/writers missed great opportunities to make it all better by not following the book more closely. What about all the time and effort? 8 years...that is how much time PJ will have spent on this from start to finish. Yes he has made some mistakes but for the most part he has made the correct decisions in translating the book. And some of these changes are made due to other reasoning such as budget or running time. Also, I'm willing to bet that most of the time that a director and writer is involved in making a film from a great book like LOTR, they're probably bigger fans of the book than we all are and will do their best to make sure their film measures up to that book they love.


kami <---hates unreasonable purists
 

Storm

Diamond Member
Nov 5, 1999
3,952
0
76
After thinking about it... Im not so much concerned with Faramir as I am with the amount of stuff they need to
cover in ROTK... Its going to be a looong movie even as theatrical release.
 

Entity

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
10,090
0
0
I'm still not quite sure about how I felt about it. As a movie, it was good - bordering on excellent. However, I agree that there are certain elements that Jackson could have easily done a much better on - beginning with the depiction of Faramir, of course, and the overemphasis on the comic aspects of Gimli. It seemed a bit too stretched, as well; some things were given more emphasis than they should be, some were given not enough.

OTOH:

I think the introduction of Osgilath was necessary, because people who haven't read the books need to have some sort of cliffhanger; now they know that we will be seeing a battle in the next movie that will make Helm's Deep seem like smallchange. The only way to sensibly end up in Gondor, I guess, was to have Faramir be somewhat changed in his depiction - which, in turn, also helped the viewer understand how powerful the ring truly was.

For reference, I can just ask my g/f what she thought; she's only read a tiny bit of FOTR, so asking her what she thought of the movies is more based on general cinema and less on the adherence to the book. She really enjoyed TTT, moreso than FOTR. I guess that says something.

I'm going to do my best to reserve judgment until the full versions (director's cut, whatever you want to call it) come out for each movie. Then I'll know how I really feel; right now, I like the movies, but I am a tad disappointed.

Rob
 

isildur

Golden Member
Jan 3, 2001
1,509
0
76
Originally posted by: Swag1138
Originally posted by: LethalWolfe
Originally posted by: Swag1138
Originally posted by: isildur
In a discussion with one of my friends, I put it like this. Its like when you want a new GI-Joe figure, and your mom buys you a C.O.M.A.N.D.O. figure. The same in function, almost the same in appearance, but completely different from what you wanted. You cant help but be dissapointed.

Different media, different styles, different strengths, different weaknesses.

Expecting LotR movies to be exactly like LotR books is more of a fantasy than all of Middle Earth.


A fantastic example of this is original Dune vs. TV movie Dune. Original Dune=okay movie, but deviated from the book thus pissing people off. TV Moive Dune=movie very true to the book, 4 or 5 hours long, boring as hell and sucks @ss.


Lethal

I know what your saying, and understand it clearly. I dont EXPECT it to be exactly like the books, I know this is impossible. The only problem that I cannot forgive is Faramir, I dont agree with the reasons given for completely changing the character. He was one of my favorite characters in the books, and most people I know who have read the books agree with me on that point. In the movie, however, while I still like Faramir (being that I know how noble his heart really is) people who have never read the books hated him royally.

Perhaps I should hold off judgement until ROTK, and see if PJ can pull it together so that Faramir can show his true character, but it still hurts my enjoyment of TTT. This is my opinion. You cannot change it with explanations about "its better for the movie" because I cannot see how making Faramir into a horses ass is better for the Lord Of The Rings. If PJ can pull it off, then I will once again be all for him, but Im sorry, right now I am unable to forgive what he did to Faramir.

The rest of the movie is amazing, no way to argue that, and hell, even the parts with Faramir, when taken just as the movie, are good. But as an almost lifelong fan of the books, I just cant let it go.


I left the Dune part quoted because I happened to like the TV Dune movie. As well as the original Dune.

dude, the problem with getting your panties all up in a bunch over Faramir is that he wasn't a central character - if you can write off the movie b/c you don't like what they did with your favorite 2ndary character, maybe you just shouldn't go at all. Sorry, but it just seems kind of silly to write off a work of this scope b/c you don't like how the director chose to make a low lever character who happened to be near/dear play out.

I liked the Faramir of the book too, but he isn't an important character in the greater scheme of the plot. <shrug>

Shoot, I thought Tom B was an interesting character too (enigmatical), but its not like he was really CRUCIAL to the movement of the story or anything either.
 

PlatinumGold

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
23,168
0
71
I'm not a great critic. I don't remember the books in enough detail to make the kinds of comments some already have made. for me it comes down to this, i went in, watched the film and came out a little less satisfied with my life. it was one of those totally engaging movies that i got soo wrapped up in that when i walked out of the movie i was definitely left w/ a sense of boredom regarding my life. it took a whole day for that feeling to pass.

the movie was THAT good.
 

PowerEngineer

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2001
3,558
735
136
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
I'm not a great critic. I don't remember the books in enough detail to make the kinds of comments some already have made. for me it comes down to this, i went in, watched the film and came out a little less satisfied with my life. it was one of those totally engaging movies that i got soo wrapped up in that when i walked out of the movie i was definitely left w/ a sense of boredom regarding my life. it took a whole day for that feeling to pass.

the movie was THAT good.

The books are even better! You owe it to yourself to reread them.

On Jackson:

I agree that some license needs to be taken in turning these (and any other) books into a movie. I can certainly understand why he chose to skip over some things, like Tom B. But he goes way too far. There's no need to trash Faramir, etc. Rather than presenting a repackaged version of Tolkein's story, he seems to feel entitled to change the story to his own liking. Sound a bit like Worm Tongue...
 

Michael

Elite member
Nov 19, 1999
5,435
234
106
Can someone please explain to me how Faramir was "trashed". He was tempted by the ring, but he easily overcame it. I thought it was quite clear that he represented the strength that men possess.

I wasn't fond of the Elves at Helm's Deep. That was a stand of men against the darkness. It was supposed to be the few brave men (and an elf and a dwarf) standing against Saruman's might.

I liked the set-up before the battle with the women and children. It showed what they were fighting for.

As a long-time member of the SCA, I have decades of standing shoulder to shoulder in a shield wall either bracing for an attack or charging into a shield wall. My pulse was pounding during the battle scenes and I wanted to be there standing with the king.

Michael
 

kduncan5

Golden Member
Apr 22, 2000
1,794
0
0
All I can say is I'm just thrilled beyond words that someone took the initiative to recreate on film, one of the best stories ever written. Even though there were a few changes in the storyline, I think Peter Jackson is doing an excellent job with the time constraints that are inherent in translating books to film. I was moved by both FOTR and TTT, and I think it's going to be a long year to wait for ROTK to arrive. -kd5-
 

BigSmooth

Lifer
Aug 18, 2000
10,483
7
81
Loved the film. It hasn't been long since I read the trilogy, so I did notice the changes, but they all worked cinematically, so who cares? No, Gimli is nothing like I imagined him, but I think his one-liners improved the movie for many of the people at the theater.

I was just floored by the visual effects in this film. They're really seamlessly integrated. Gollum was just amazing.
 

Akaz1976

Platinum Member
Jun 5, 2000
2,810
0
71
I demand that after the third movie is released every movie theater that can shows all of the three films, extended versions in film quality.

Amen!

Been a very long time since i read the LOTR so would some one enlighten me as to what Hurons were suppose to be? btw elves fighting was really cool even if it was not in the book and it did make sense as far as the movie is concerned.

Akaz
 

m2kewl

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2001
8,263
0
0
just came back from watching TTT and man, it was awesome! here's my thoughts:

1. gollum is badass for a cgi inserted character!
2. gandalf's beginning fight scene was great, altough that part where he chased the sword was weird.
3. ents taking on isengard <sp?> was cool - too bad it was short. (the ent putting himself out of fire was funny as hell)
4. fight scenes in helms deep - speechless.
5. ARRRRRRRRGGGHH - i need to wait another year for the ROTK?!?! :|

all in all, it was damn worth the ten bucks i paid, and i'll be shelling another ten this weekend. there hasn't been anything this good since godfather and star wars!!

ps: you bet i'll be picking up the books this xmas!
 

LocutusX

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
3,061
0
0
I was a bit miffed at seeing Haldir get killed at Helm's Deep... dammit PJ, Elves rock and Men suck, don't you understand?


(yeah I know, Haldir & the Lothlorien Elves weren't even supposed to be there, but <valleygirl accent> WHATEVER...)
 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,502
1
81
Originally posted by: bentwookie
Most likely the extended dvd will add more breadth and explanation just like fotr extended

peter jackson is worse than lucas...

The Extended Edition added an extra 30 or 50 minutes to the movie. Do you think it would have realistic for Jackson to release that long a movie in the theaters?

 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,502
1
81
Originally posted by: neomits
Originally posted by: ScottyB
Originally posted by: neomits
The only thing that bugged me was parts where the audience was laughing at his lines - lines that weren't meant to be funny. Argh. Just drives me nuts. I want my own copy of the film so I don't have to put up with this bullshit.

OMG YES!!! I saw it the first time with very few ppl so no one laughed at this part (almost everyone there was a critic for a paper or something) and I was amazed by how awesome the performance of a CGI character was. Then I saw it last night and ppl laughed. It pissed me off so much, but after seeing it a third time my friends and I agree that it was pulled off a little weird. I mean if you even have the slight hesitation that the audience will laugh at this serious part then it needs to be worked out.

Second time seeing it is DEFINETLY way better

and yes for all the small things PJ does change he makes it all good by adding things in that weren't fully described in the books. Using trolls to open the Black Gates !!! GREAT STUFF

I know the theater emplyees should just slice peoples' necks if they laugh at a part they think is funny and you think is serious. I mean who do they think they are?

I meant Peter Jackson should have figured it out before hand that "hey some ppl might think this is funny when its not supposed to be" and he should go back and make it to where it can't be misinterpreted. Unless he really meant for it to be funny.

I'm not saying the people are at fault for laughing

You never know how some people will react to movie's dialogue, sceen, or character. I saw the Exorcist with an audience that was laughing so hard during the movie that I could not hear the dialogue.

 

prontospyder

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,262
0
0
I stumbled upon this great post over at theonering.net forums:

I'm very glad I found TORN 3 years ago and was able to follow the progress from the casting and location scouting stage to the present. It's made a world of difference in my understanding of the process that PJ went through.

He originally was told to make it in one movie, refused, and presented a two-movie script. He couldn't get studios to bite. He came to Hollywood to meet with various studios to try to get backing. They all turned him down except New Line, where fortunately the decision-maker was a Tolkien fan who gave PJ the green light to make three films. Then the script had to be rewritten and reexpanded from two movies to three. It's my strong suspicion that a lot of the major changes here are leftovers from the extremely torn apart and condensed TTT which was absorbed into the other two books for the two movie script. I don't know that that's true, but it seems very likely.

Another comforting thought (at least to me) is knowing that many copies of the book were worn out throughout the filming, that the actors carried them around and brought them to PJ, Fran, and Philippa on many occasions to point out something about a scene or a character. And Christopher Lee, the set's resident Tolkien scholar (having read the books yearly since they were published) was always there to comment or question. With all of that attention to detail, it seems to me that major changes to the story must have been things that could not be changed or that it was thought would contribute in some way to a plot point or exposition later on. I look forward to the director/writer commentary for TTT, it should be fascinating.

It is a shock to see moments you're so familiar with gone or greatly changed. And it hurts even more if it happens to be a favorite moment. I know, I've had many in both films that will either never be seen or are changed. But I know from those years of watching these movies grow and talking with people here about how we would all do it, that NO movie is going to be Tolkien's LOTR, simply because no one really knows what that would be like. When we read, we all see OUR LOTR. I know, because whenever we talk about how a thing should be done, everyone has a different opinion from everyone else. I came to the conclusion a while ago that even if Tolkien's imagination was put directly on the screen, we would all find many things about it jarring because it would be so different from how we've all fondly imagined it. So yes, this is PJ's LOTR. He's the lucky fan who got the backing to make his vision. He's also the unlucky fan who had to deal with the immense headache of actually making it. He has said that he still wakes up in the night dreaming that people have just told him about an emergency he has to fix and are standing around waiting for his decision.

Considering what he has accomplished, and those many moments on screen where it does exactly match my own imagination, I cannot bring myself to say that he has failed. When I read the books, I continue to see my LOTR, which I love. When I see the movies, I see PJ's LOTR which has some wonderful moments I never imagined, or not so well...and some moments on which he and I do not see eye to eye and probably never will. But I'd rather have PJ's LOTR to watch than none at all.

I think this is really the thing you're struggling with: you wanted to see your LOTR on screen, and not someone else's. I found that multiple viewings help a lot with that. When you get used to what is there, it's easier to see the merit in it. Familiarity helps a lot.

As for the complexity, alas, we are getting three three-hour movies, not three six-hour movies (which we'd all love, no doubt). Complexity will be lost, as will many of those lovely nuances of character and relationship. Again, we all think they should be there, but everyone has a different priority for them. We will see the ones that the screenwriters felt were essential, just as they had to decide what themes the movies were going to be about, not having time to develop them all.

Those who have not read the books won't know what they're missing. It's narrative holes that bother them, not the stuff we miss (I have a couple non-readers in my house to get reactions from). Some of them will be moved to read the books to get their answers, and then they will discover what they're missing.

And there is no such thing as loving the books too much. But the book and the movie exist in different mediums, and so each must be taken on its own terms to be enjoyed.

Silverlode

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