Louisiana atheist vilified for objecting to prayer in public school

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sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,130
5,658
126
There's no reason to have it there either.

Grow some balls? And do nothing? Yeah, real ballsy move there.

I don't really agree with him ratting it out, pick your battles and ignore shit like this. Move away and never come back.

His parents are straight up pathetic but hey, as are the people making threats.

This.
 

frostedflakes

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2005
7,925
1
81
No, actually, it doesn't.

They aren't forcing him to do anything. They aren't forcing him to believe anything. They aren't forcing him to say anything. They aren't forcing him to listen to anything.

Also,



From these, I don't think he can actually sue the school, since they haven't done anything. The only lawsuit he really has is against the students threatening him with bodily harm, etc. The teacher was just exercising their free speech, and his parents are within their rights to not pay for his college and expel him from their house. He's an adult now.
The Supreme Court has ruled on numerous occasions that school-sponsored prayer is unconstitutional.

Although I tend to agree with your interpretation, I don't see the big deal as long as nobody is forcing you to pray along with everyone else. Having to overhear other people talking to their imaginary friend in no way forces their beliefs on me, so I don't see how it violates the Establishment Clause. Now the state making a law that says "you must believe in this, attend this church, etc." is a different matter, and to me this is the kind of stuff the First Amendment was meant to prevent. But historically the Supreme Court's interpretation has been different.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,130
5,658
126
Actually the first amendment says yes. As others have said, the prayer is not a requirement and the students don't have to follow along. He made the dick move and started the threats. Not saying everyone else is justified, but he started it.

BS
 

busydude

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2010
8,793
5
76
He made the dick move and started the threats. Not saying everyone else is justified, but he started it.

Confused. 404, Threat not found. He spoke to the school superintendent about it being unconstitutional.
 

pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
21,513
4,607
136
The 14th amendment in conjunction with 1st amendment says NO to school prayer.

In my opinion it doesn't say that:

"wall of separation between church and state," as written in Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists Association in 1802. The original text reads: "...I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State." Jefferson reflected his frequent speaking theme that the government is not to interfere with religion.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". Together with the Free Exercise Clause ("... or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"), these two clauses make up what are called the "religion clauses" of the First Amendment.

The establishment clause has generally been interpreted to prohibit
1) the establishment of a national religion by Congress.
2) the preference by the U.S. government of one religion over another.

The first approach is called the "separation" or "no aid" interpretation, while the second approach is called the "non-preferential" or "accommodation" interpretation. The accommodation interpretation prohibits Congress from preferring one religion over another, but does not prohibit the government's entry into religious domain to make accommodations in order to achieve the purposes of the Free Exercise Clause.

IMO If the state prevents them from praying as they wish is a violation of the First Amendment.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". Together with the Free Exercise Clause ("... or prohibiting the free exercise thereof")
 
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DangerAardvark

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2004
7,581
0
0
ATOT's turned into pussies. Submit to authority (unless it's Obama). Vilify the brave. Discard the entire Bill of Rights (except the second amendment), if needed to uphold the will of the majority. Defend the status quo (as if it needs defending). Pathetic.
 

Sea Moose

Diamond Member
May 12, 2009
6,936
7
76
fowler shoulda just stfu. u dont wanna pray, then dont follow along.

THis, one of the charity groups i do work with always say a prayer before they go out. I joined their group so i stand with them and bow my head. I do not say the words as i dont believe in that stuff. Though i respect that they do.

Fowles is a trouble making dick and deserves repercussion
 

DangerAardvark

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2004
7,581
0
0
THis, one of the charity groups i do work with always say a prayer before they go out. I joined their group so i stand with them and bow my head. I do not say the words as i dont believe in that stuff. Though i respect that they do.

Fowles is a trouble making dick and deserves repercussion

Like I said: pathetic.
 

Bateluer

Lifer
Jun 23, 2001
27,730
8
0
No, he wasn't.

Confused. 404, Threat not found. He spoke to the school superintendent about it being unconstitutional.



But Fowler -- knowing that government-sponsored prayer in the public schools is unconstitutional and legally forbidden -- contacted the school superintendent to let him know that he opposed the prayer, and would be contacting the ACLU if it happened.

He told the school officials he would be contacting the ACLU if they didn't cancel the prayer. So yes, 1) he was making a threat, and 2) he was forcing his believe on others more than they were forcing their's on him.
 

silverpig

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
27,709
11
81
In my opinion it doesn't say that:

"wall of separation between church and state," as written in Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists Association in 1802. The original text reads: "...I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State." Jefferson reflected his frequent speaking theme that the government is not to interfere with religion.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". Together with the Free Exercise Clause ("... or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"), these two clauses make up what are called the "religion clauses" of the First Amendment.

The establishment clause has generally been interpreted to prohibit
1) the establishment of a national religion by Congress.
2) the preference by the U.S. government of one religion over another.

The first approach is called the "separation" or "no aid" interpretation, while the second approach is called the "non-preferential" or "accommodation" interpretation. The accommodation interpretation prohibits Congress from preferring one religion over another, but does not prohibit the government's entry into religious domain to make accommodations in order to achieve the purposes of the Free Exercise Clause.

IMO If the state prevents them from praying as they wish is a violation of the First Amendment.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". Together with the Free Exercise Clause ("... or prohibiting the free exercise thereof")

From another forum I frequent:

"According to the US Supreme Court who in the 1992 case of Lee v. Weisman, 505 U.S. 577 (1992) specifically rejected such an approach. That case was a reaffirmation of the clear principles of such landmark cases as Engel v. Vitale, 370 U.S. 421 (1962) and Abington v. Schempp, 324 U.S. 203 (1963) applied specifically to a high school graduation ceremony.

In the 1992 case the principal of Nathan Bishop Middle School in Providence, Rhode Island, Robert E. Lee, invited a Jewish rabbi to deliver a prayer at the 1989 graduation ceremony, the parents of student Deborah Weisman requested a temporary restraining order seeking to bar the rabbi from speaking. When the Rhode Island district court denied the Weismans' motion, the family did attend the graduation ceremony, and the rabbi did deliver the benediction. After the graduation, the Weismans continued their litigation, and won a victory at the First Circuit Court of Appeals. The school district appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court, arguing that the prayer was nonsectarian and was doubly voluntary, as Deborah was free not to stand for the prayer and because participation in the ceremony itself was not required.

SCOTUS Justice Anthony Kennedy who was expected to water down the school prayer cases delivered the majority opinion strengthening the prohibition on even voluntary school prayer in such circumstances.

Mr. Justice Kennedy noted that even the nonsectarian nature of the prayer was no defense, as the Establishment Clause forbade coerced prayers in public schools, not just those representing a specific religious tradition. Addressing the State's contention that attendance at the graduation exercises was voluntary, Kennedy wrote:

"To say a teenage student has a real choice not to attend her high school graduation is formalistic in the extreme. True, Deborah could elect not to attend commencement without renouncing her diploma; but we shall not allow the case to turn on this point. Everyone knows that, in our society and in our culture, high school graduation is one of life's most significant occasions. A school rule which excuses attendance is beside the point. Attendance may not be required by official decree, yet it is apparent that a student is not free to absent herself from the graduation exercise in any real sense of the term "voluntary," for absence would require forfeiture of those intangible benefits which have motivated the student through youth and all her high school years."


In answering the argument that participation in the prayer was itself voluntary, Mr. Justice Kennedy formulated what is now known as the coercion test:

"As we have observed before, there are heightened concerns with protecting freedom of conscience from subtle coercive pressure in the elementary and secondary public schools. Our decisions in [Engel] and [Abington] recognize, among other things, that prayer exercises in public schools carry a particular risk of indirect coercion. The concern may not be limited to the context of schools, but it is most pronounced there. What to most believers may seem nothing more than a reasonable request that the nonbeliever respect their religious practices, in a school context may appear to the nonbeliever or dissenter to be an attempt to employ the machinery of the State to enforce a religious orthodoxy."


Stave's remarks are disingenuous in the extreme and as is now being reported it was a subterfuge to put a moment of silence in the official program and turning a blind eye to the Lord's Prayer being recited by a student. "
 

DangerAardvark

Diamond Member
Oct 22, 2004
7,581
0
0
He told the school officials he would be contacting the ACLU if they didn't cancel the prayer. So yes, 1) he was making a threat, and 2) he was forcing his believe on others more than they were forcing their's on him.

He was threatening to MAKE THEM OBEY THE LAW, cuntface.


YHPM

ATOT Moderator ElFenix
 
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silverpig

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
27,709
11
81
He told the school officials he would be contacting the ACLU if they didn't cancel the prayer. So yes, 1) he was making a threat, and 2) he was forcing his believe on others more than they were forcing their's on him.

He wasn't trying to get the prayer changed to "Oh mighty flying spaghetti monster, we know that all gods are bullshit, so let's get this ceremony going. Ramen."
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,130
5,658
126
He told the school officials he would be contacting the ACLU if they didn't cancel the prayer. So yes, 1) he was making a threat, and 2) he was forcing his believe on others more than they were forcing their's on him.

No, he wasn't. What belief was he forcing? What "threat" would there be if there was no legal issue here?
 

silverpig

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
27,709
11
81
They weren't breaking any laws, as we've already established. Please read my 'They didn't force etc' statement on the first page.

Also, watch the language.

Read my post a few up. The SCOTUS disagrees with you.
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,943
542
126
2) he was forcing his believe on others more than they were forcing their's on him.
Absolute bullshit.

He wasn't forcing anyone not to pray. He was exercising his right to enjoy a government sponsored program free from religious endorsement -- a right which everyone enjoys. For the very same reason those(you?) ignorant hicks would be screaming bloody murder if a school leader led the crowd in an Islamic prayer or a Hindu blessing to the exclusion of any Christian prayer, he is justified in objecting to this establishment of Christianity by governmental authorities.

Go back to school you ignorant twat.
 

KaOTiK

Lifer
Feb 5, 2001
10,877
8
81
On the bright side, at least he knows which nut jobs he has to avoid. I'm guessing he is moving out of state.
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,943
542
126
Actually the first amendment says yes. As others have said, the prayer is not a requirement and the students don't have to follow along.
The prayer is a requirement. He couldn't choose to attend the graduation ceremony without the establishment of a state-sponsored religion. There wasn't one. If he wanted to attend a graduation ceremony, he would be required to attend a state-sponsored religious ceremony.

He made the dick move and started the threats.
Fuck off. The dicks are the ones that don't understand they aren't the only people in the country.

Not saying everyone else is justified, but he started it.
You're so full of shit. There would be no issue if his rights weren't violated by these dumbfuck backwater yokels in the first place.
 

DominionSeraph

Diamond Member
Jul 22, 2009
8,391
31
91
IMO If the state prevents them from praying as they wish is a violation of the First Amendment.

A government institution does not have freedom of religion, as that would be an establishment of religion. An official school graduation prayer is an establishment that the government itself has a preference for a religion. It sends a clear message as to what is the official belief structure.

School officials are not allowed to send their beliefs through their government positions. Their religion must remain separate for religion to be separate from the government.
Their exercise is restricted as long as they're under the guise of governmental actors. Their First Amendment freedoms do not allow them to violate the First Amendment by establishing a religion through their pattern of religious actions.

The government must remain secular, and in that realm there are no gods to which to pray.
 

Bateluer

Lifer
Jun 23, 2001
27,730
8
0
Absolute bullshit.

He wasn't forcing anyone not to pray. He was exercising his right to enjoy a government sponsored program free from religious endorsement -- a right which everyone enjoys. For the very same reason those(you?) ignorant hicks would be screaming bloody murder if a school leader led the crowd in an Islamic prayer or a Hindu blessing to the exclusion of any Christian prayer, he is justified in objecting to this establishment of Christianity by governmental authorities.

Go back to school you ignorant twat.

Sigh . . .I'll try again to get through to you. He threatened to call the ACLU and sue the school if they held a prayer at graduation. This is not a religious endorsement, the payers at graduations are very generic, non-denominational, motivational things. There's no Christian establishment here. I would have no problem if he stated that he wanted to say a Hindu blessing or a Buddhist chant, and I doubt the school would either.

I find it ironic that you tell me to go to school and throw a personal insult when your own position is pretty much based on 'I don't wanna listen to prayers!!!1 They offends me!1'. And then have the gall to tell me to to go back to school. Grow up.
 
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