Louisiana passes first antievolution "academic freedom" law

[kage69]

I have no issue with evolution as a principle but I see no reason to teach that human's are from apes since jillions of fossils are missing when they shouldn't be (democrats being from apes maybe).

You should check out an 'intro to physical anthropology' class sometime at your nearest college or university. Then you'll know how retarded you sound now.
And oh look, another one of your weak digs on Dems...shocker... Never any rationale to it, just one of your normal, baseless balls of spit(e).

Seriously, were you molested by a Democrat or something? In addition to the usual ignorant and self-righteous babble you've been crapping in this forum the last many weeks, I've noticed you always make some lame bash on the Dems... No "pinko" or "commie" or "Marxist" this time, but in general the empty repetition of it all makes me wonder if your some kind of bot or really just some kid with issues.

I digress... Time to hit the books, as you've apparently got a lot of reading to catch up on!

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Vic
Let me just be the first to chime in this thread and say that evolution is a fact. While I'm not a biologist (prefer physics), I'd be happy to discuss details with those who disagree. I'd also like to find out just why you think this theory undermines your religious faith, when the larger consensus (outside of fundie churches and the south) is that science is discovering the glory of God. And I want to stress that last part for the religious faithful, as I grew up in a devout young earth creationist faith myself. However glorious you imagine God to be, absolutely pales in comparison to what science has discovered that God is. So what's the fight here? I dunno. I vaguely remember being taught to distrust science, but the logic didn't hold up. As science is not incompatible with God, just the authority structure of religions.

:thumbsup: Well said.

 

[NoStateofMind]

I may be the only one but I applaud the state of Louisiana for allowing diverse subject matter for our children to learn. Embrace an open minded learning atmosphere and more is discovered and invented in such an environment. :thumbsup:

 

[whylaff]

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
I may be the only one but I applaud the state of Louisiana for allowing diverse subject matter for our children to learn. Embrace an open minded learning atmosphere and more is discovered and invented in such an environment. :thumbsup:

I?m all for being open minded and allowing students to explore all realms of history and science, but, do you honestly expect during the discussion of intelligent design when students want to understand models of ID, that one particular religion or concept will not be chosen over another?

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: whylaff

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
I may be the only one but I applaud the state of Louisiana for allowing diverse subject matter for our children to learn. Embrace an open minded learning atmosphere and more is discovered and invented in such an environment. :thumbsup:

I?m all for being open minded and allowing students to explore all realms of history and science, but, do you honestly expect during the discussion of intelligent design when students want to understand models of ID, that one particular religion or concept will not be chosen over another?

Choosing one over another should be discouraged but not disallowed. Will some of them choose their religions version over science? Sure. I just want to see open minds learning what they want to learn, within reason that is. Sorry kids, no paintball classes.

 

[Brainonska511]

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

Originally posted by: whylaff

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
I may be the only one but I applaud the state of Louisiana for allowing diverse subject matter for our children to learn. Embrace an open minded learning atmosphere and more is discovered and invented in such an environment. :thumbsup:

I?m all for being open minded and allowing students to explore all realms of history and science, but, do you honestly expect during the discussion of intelligent design when students want to understand models of ID, that one particular religion or concept will not be chosen over another?

Choosing one over another should be discouraged but not disallowed. Will some of them choose their religions version over science? Sure. I just want to see open minds learning what they want to learn, within reason that is. Sorry kids, no paintball classes.

Science is not about choosing. It's not about a debate with opinions. It is only about the evidence and what it can and cannot support. Intelligent design can never be scientific as it is not falsifiable.

And to an earlier response from Butterbean about the debates being over because the data is in, that's mainly the media simplifying science. I would bet that when it comes to most scientific theories, the average person simply does not have enough background to interpret what is really happening, so things are oversimplified by high schools and the media that reports on new discoveries.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

Originally posted by: whylaff

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
I may be the only one but I applaud the state of Louisiana for allowing diverse subject matter for our children to learn. Embrace an open minded learning atmosphere and more is discovered and invented in such an environment. :thumbsup:

I?m all for being open minded and allowing students to explore all realms of history and science, but, do you honestly expect during the discussion of intelligent design when students want to understand models of ID, that one particular religion or concept will not be chosen over another?

Choosing one over another should be discouraged but not disallowed. Will some of them choose their religions version over science? Sure. I just want to see open minds learning what they want to learn, within reason that is. Sorry kids, no paintball classes.

Mixing religion and science has never been a good idea.

 

[BeauJangles]

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

Originally posted by: whylaff

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
I may be the only one but I applaud the state of Louisiana for allowing diverse subject matter for our children to learn. Embrace an open minded learning atmosphere and more is discovered and invented in such an environment. :thumbsup:

I?m all for being open minded and allowing students to explore all realms of history and science, but, do you honestly expect during the discussion of intelligent design when students want to understand models of ID, that one particular religion or concept will not be chosen over another?

Choosing one over another should be discouraged but not disallowed. Will some of them choose their religions version over science? Sure. I just want to see open minds learning what they want to learn, within reason that is. Sorry kids, no paintball classes.

No offense, but you don't want "diverse subject matter", you want christian creation taught in schools next to scientific fact. I won't even go into how deeply that offends me, but I'll simply point out that for the sake of our children, shouldn't they also be taught other creation stories?

How about the Four Creations story from the Hopi?
How about Norse creation stories?

It's disgusting that children are going to be taught ANY religion next to science, but it's even more disgusting that they won't be taught all religions next to science.

Have you ever heard of separation of Church and State? Or does that not apply to Christians?

 

[ChunkiMunki]

just leave your ID in your own christan schools, where you can bask and worship in "gods" glorious wonder all day long. yes indeed, the giant magicman in the sky made the universe and hasn't been seen since.

 

[m1ldslide1]

Originally posted by: Hafen
Jindal is a friggin idiot. I heard him talking about ID last week, and I don't know what he was doing in his Biology classes... but how he describes the science is just fundamentally flawed and misunderstood. "Teach all the best science" my ass. Its not science, it doesn't follow the scientific method, and is unable to explain any observations or re-interpret long held theories in anything but the most vague, broad and superficial way. Let alone able to make any predictions. All of which any good science, which includes evolutionary theory, is able to do.

ID doesn't teach anything but dispersion and doubt. It is a hollow idea that can only exist by undermining evolution through ignorance and misrepresentation rather than be a competitive explanation scrutinized by reason and facts.

This I put my biology degree on.

I cannot understand the anti-science, anti-reason, pro-supernaturalism, pro-ignorance mentality of the conservative movement. America will not succeed by making its children dumber and mis-educated because a few choose to define their religious thought to a very narrow and shallow interpretation of the body of Christian religious teachings and experience.

I nominate you for governor. Good post. :thumbsup:

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: extra
MMMmmm, queue intelligent design bashing or religion bashing here and describe those with different viewpoints as ignorant and wrong. Throw in one or two intelligent posts separating the issue of evolution and science from religion. Maybe, MAYBE (rarely) a post that references that there really are facts that actually do contradict evolution, (yet most of the facts do point to evolution)--so science still has figuring out to do either way (get ready to queue up the attacks of how if i don't think all the facts agree with evolution i must not understand the theory, or must be wrong somehow, wheee!). Did I sum up the thread pretty well? (didn't read it).

As for the article. Who cares? Whoopti do. Some school class may have a day of the school year devoted to holes in the theory of evolution and alternatives. Can't have that. Meanwhile, 99% of the students will still learn about evolution and be smart enough to see that it is mostly factually proven and the challenges to the theory will give the new budding scientists ideas for new things to test to figure out and fill in holes in the theory. Are people honestly that worried that if their theory is challenged students will shift in droves to not believe in it? Honestly? HONESTLY?

"I hope he [Jindal] doesn't do anything that would hold back the next generation of Louisiana's doctors."

Oh yes, I'm sure this will be an issue. /sarcasm

People make me laugh.

Yes.

Please show me the 'facts' that you have that contradict evolution. I'll be waiting.

It seems like you have fallen for the old 'teach the controversy' position. You are attempting to frame the issue as one between two competing viewpoints, both of which are valid. (even though you give the preponderance of the evidence to evolution) This is false, and it's not being open minded. Being open minded means considering alternatives if they are reasonable, and ID/Creationism is not reasonable.

Finally, you say that people shouldn't be worried about children shifting to no longer accept evolution if it is challenged in the classroom. It's not about that, it's about teaching what's real.

 

[NoStateofMind]

Sorry, I do not believe the state should decide what education should entail in any absolutes. If the parents want to teach them "Hopi" or "norse" then let them learn it. It wouldn't bother me a bit. I may not choose those subjects but some might. What difference does it make to you anyway? Its not you learning it.

Seperation of church and state blah blah. I personally don't care if a child wants to pray in school, bring his bible to school or hell, his satanic bible. I do not care. As long as they do not go out of their way to bother other students learning other things.

We need to stop being so closed minded and open up our minds to other opportunities. If you don't like the subject matter then don't study it, its that simple.

We pound our chests about freedom yet if you bring a bible into school watch all hell break loose.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Sorry, I do not believe the state should decide what education should entail in any absolutes. If the parents want to teach them "Hopi" or "norse" then let them learn it. It wouldn't bother me a bit. I may not choose those subjects but some might. What difference does it make to you anyway? Its not you learning it.

Seperation of church and state blah blah. I personally don't care if a child wants to pray in school, bring his bible to school or hell, his satanic bible. I do not care. As long as they do not go out of their way to bother other students learning other things.

We need to stop being so closed minded and open up our minds to other opportunities. If you don't like the subject matter then don't study it, its that simple.

We pound our chests about freedom yet if you bring a bible into school watch all hell break loose.

Kids praying in school is allowed and always has been allowed.

It's not closed minded to teach things that are facts. If schools followed what you are advocating we might as well close them all. It's not closed minded to teach 2+2=4. We don't have to open our minds to the idea that 2+2 could somehow also equal 5.

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Sorry, I do not believe the state should decide what education should entail in any absolutes. If the parents want to teach them "Hopi" or "norse" then let them learn it. It wouldn't bother me a bit. I may not choose those subjects but some might. What difference does it make to you anyway? Its not you learning it.

Seperation of church and state blah blah. I personally don't care if a child wants to pray in school, bring his bible to school or hell, his satanic bible. I do not care. As long as they do not go out of their way to bother other students learning other things.

We need to stop being so closed minded and open up our minds to other opportunities. If you don't like the subject matter then don't study it, its that simple.

We pound our chests about freedom yet if you bring a bible into school watch all hell break loose.

Kids praying in school is allowed and always has been allowed.

It's not closed minded to teach things that are facts. If schools followed what you are advocating we might as well close them all. It's not closed minded to teach 2+2=4. We don't have to open our minds to the idea that 2+2 could somehow also equal 5.

Nice job being a smartass. No one is arguing that "facts" should not be taught, but you have taken the affirmative that thats what I'm advocating. Silly rabbit.

You don't have to like what is taught or learn what they learn. Why does it offend you that someone is studying what you don't like?

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Butterbean
I see no threat in this. Bad science is an epidemic at this time, and there are often political agendas behind it. The global warming stuff is flawed from beginning to end, but it still gets force fed with great hostitly for any disagreement. I have no issue with evolution as a principle but I see no reason to teach that human's are from apes since jillions of fossils are missing when they shouldn't be (democrats being from apes maybe). If people want to allow room for controversies about human origins I could not care less. The UK also passed laws to counter global warming rubbish ala Gore and more power to them. I feel like I am re-living the 1930's and rugenics with all the incredibly shoddy science going around (and psychologists/psychiatrists are some of the most guilty of al). There are weirdos on creation side and weirdos on the evolution side. It's not so bad they keep each other busy imo.

Schools must warn of Gore climate film bias
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...climate-film-bias.html

You are single-handedly dumbing down this forum. Go read a book! (Other than the bible!)

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

Nice job being a smartass. No one is arguing that "facts" should not be taught, but you have taken the affirmative that thats what I'm advocating. Silly rabbit.

You don't have to like what is taught or learn what they learn. Why does it offend you that someone is studying what you don't like?

I don't care what people are studying, I care what people are teaching. If kids want to study the bible all day long I think that's great for them. What we are talking about however is what is taught in our schools, and so in that case I care very much.

Schools should teach what is fact, what is real. Evolution is a fact. Teaching anything else is an abrogation of the duty that administrators, legislators, and teachers have to educate our population. This is not a case where there is legitimate controversy. One side you have an exhaustively tested theory supported by overwhelming mountains of evidence, and the other side you have someone saying... 'nuh uh!'. I have no patience for it.

 

[abaez]

Either way, if it does makes it way through the courts, I hope it gets the smackdown it deserves.

 

[naddicott]

The irony is, Louisiana puts all this effort into having children poke holes in something as relatively bulletproof as evolution, but has no such effort to support vigorous questioning and analysis of some of a much more tenuous "science" taught in public curriculum - say H.S. economics (e.g. letting students get into the implications of "perfect information" assumptions being wrong).

"critical thinking skills, logical analysis, and open and objective discussion of scientific theories" - are laudable goals, but there are so many (untouched) subjects that are more fertile ground for such a process. All the Louisiana effort will accomplish is create a false association of "critical thinking" with beating one's head against a brick wall. I'd rather students have the potential to " think critically" about something and actually stand a chance in hell of potentially being right when they argue from the contrarian viewpoint.

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

Nice job being a smartass. No one is arguing that "facts" should not be taught, but you have taken the affirmative that thats what I'm advocating. Silly rabbit.

You don't have to like what is taught or learn what they learn. Why does it offend you that someone is studying what you don't like?

I don't care what people are studying, I care what people are teaching. If kids want to study the bible all day long I think that's great for them. What we are talking about however is what is taught in our schools, and so in that case I care very much.

Schools should teach what is fact, what is real. Evolution is a fact. Teaching anything else is an abrogation of the duty that administrators, legislators, and teachers have to educate our population. This is not a case where there is legitimate controversy. One side you have an exhaustively tested theory supported by overwhelming mountains of evidence, and the other side you have someone saying... 'nuh uh!'. I have no patience for it.

You can still be taught whatever you like. Just that your truth is not everyone's truth.

 

[Jaskalas]

I stand on teaching evolution at school and religion at home. There are much more important things to fight over at the moment. Global Warming, for example.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

You can still be taught whatever you like. Just that your truth is not everyone's truth.

Are you trying to argue that everyone is entitled to their own facts?

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

You can still be taught whatever you like. Just that your truth is not everyone's truth.

Are you trying to argue that everyone is entitled to their own facts?

I am saying that if someone believes we came here through ID then they should be encouraged to pursue that avenue. I think you're stretching it out to other subjects of which I am not. As for evolution and intelligent design, both should be taught to whomever has interest.

You may not believe in ID or God saying "let there be man", but that should not be discouraged IMO. You or your children likewise should not be required to learn that if they choose not to.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

You can still be taught whatever you like. Just that your truth is not everyone's truth.

Are you trying to argue that everyone is entitled to their own facts?

I am saying that if someone believes we came here through ID then they should be encouraged to pursue that avenue. I think you're stretching it out to other subjects of which I am not. As for evolution and intelligent design, both should be taught to whomever has interest.

You may not believe in ID or God saying "let there be man", but that should not be discouraged IMO. You or your children likewise should not be required to learn that if they choose not to.

I'm sorry, but this is a terrible idea. If someone wants to believe ID then by all means they should go try and prove it. (good luck as it isn't falsifiable) This in no way means that the schools should be teaching this crap to people though. Schools should teach science in science class. ID is not science. If we follow what you want then the schools will never get any teaching done, because they will have to spend the whole year teaching the creation myth of the Olympian gods next, followed by the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

You can still be taught whatever you like. Just that your truth is not everyone's truth.

Are you trying to argue that everyone is entitled to their own facts?

I am saying that if someone believes we came here through ID then they should be encouraged to pursue that avenue. I think you're stretching it out to other subjects of which I am not. As for evolution and intelligent design, both should be taught to whomever has interest.

You may not believe in ID or God saying "let there be man", but that should not be discouraged IMO. You or your children likewise should not be required to learn that if they choose not to.

I'm sorry, but this is a terrible idea. If someone wants to believe ID then by all means they should go try and prove it. (good luck as it isn't falsifiable) This in no way means that the schools should be teaching this crap to people though. Schools should teach science in science class. ID is not science. If we follow what you want then the schools will never get any teaching done, because they will have to spend the whole year teaching the creation myth of the Olympian gods next, followed by the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

I see a reasonable discussion with you on this subject is pointless. We both made our opinions known and thats good enough for me.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

I see a reasonable discussion with you on this subject is pointless. We both made our opinions known and thats good enough for me.

Because what you are proposing is not reasonable.