Louisiana passes first antievolution "academic freedom" law

[BeauJangles]

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

You can still be taught whatever you like. Just that your truth is not everyone's truth.

Are you trying to argue that everyone is entitled to their own facts?

I am saying that if someone believes we came here through ID then they should be encouraged to pursue that avenue. I think you're stretching it out to other subjects of which I am not. As for evolution and intelligent design, both should be taught to whomever has interest.

You may not believe in ID or God saying "let there be man", but that should not be discouraged IMO. You or your children likewise should not be required to learn that if they choose not to.

If creationism and the Theory of Evolution sat on equal footing, you'd have an argument. However, creationism or intelligent design or whatever, has no scientific backing whatsoever. This debate isn't between two proven, scientific, theories, it's a debate between the entire weight of the scientific community versus a small fringe group of Christians.

By teaching "Intelligent Design" (creation) next to Evolution in classrooms children implicitly assume they are equal. Why is this not okay? Because every year the quality of education in this country declines. We cannot afford to raise a generation of children who believe that "Intelligent Design" (creation) is a scientific theory.

I'm all for teaching every fact we can come across, but god creating humans is not a fact.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

I see a reasonable discussion with you on this subject is pointless. We both made our opinions known and thats good enough for me.

Because what you are proposing is not reasonable.

Obviously not to people like you. You mind is set and anything but what you believe is "not reasonable". I don't give 2 shits about Creation, ID, or evolution as to how "man" came to be. It isn't something that drives me everyday and I'd say doesn't drive most. I'd think that only the 2% on each end of the spectrum really "care" about this and get their panties all twisted over it.

That all being said, it looks as thought the law allows the districts to make the choice so it does not FORCE anything and frankly the more local the choices when it comes to education the better when it comes to the details of the curriculum whereas the state and Fed should have broad guidelines(with the Fed being the broadest).

Also, some here keep trying to use "creationism" and "ID" as the same thing. They are not from what I understand of the subject. "ID" does not exclude "evolution" whereas the two others exclude each other.

 

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

You can still be taught whatever you like. Just that your truth is not everyone's truth.

Are you trying to argue that everyone is entitled to their own facts?

I am saying that if someone believes we came here through ID then they should be encouraged to pursue that avenue. I think you're stretching it out to other subjects of which I am not. As for evolution and intelligent design, both should be taught to whomever has interest.

You may not believe in ID or God saying "let there be man", but that should not be discouraged IMO. You or your children likewise should not be required to learn that if they choose not to.

Could you clarify the statement in bold? It sounds like you're proposing that kids should be able to choose what they want to learn in public school (not counting electives). That is pretty much the most ridiculous idea I've read in concerning education in a while. There are required classes in every school system. The standard ones such as chemistry, biology, English, history...do you think kids should be allowed to opt out of Biology in favor of a creationism class?

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: Excelsior

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

You can still be taught whatever you like. Just that your truth is not everyone's truth.

Are you trying to argue that everyone is entitled to their own facts?

I am saying that if someone believes we came here through ID then they should be encouraged to pursue that avenue. I think you're stretching it out to other subjects of which I am not. As for evolution and intelligent design, both should be taught to whomever has interest.

You may not believe in ID or God saying "let there be man", but that should not be discouraged IMO. You or your children likewise should not be required to learn that if they choose not to.

Could you clarify the statement in bold? It sounds like you're proposing that kids should be able to choose what they want to learn in public school (not counting electives). That is pretty much the most ridiculous idea I've read in concerning education in a while. There are required classes in every school system. The standard ones such as chemistry, biology, English, history...do you think kids should be allowed to opt out of Biology in favor of a creationism class?

It does not matter to me whether you or anyone else thinks its ridiculous. But to clarify, you could have two class rooms, one teaches evolution while the other Intelligent design. For that class parents would choose which their child would attend.

There are millions of people that believe God made man while there are also millions that say evolution from apes are what became man. It is unfair for one to lord over the other and say "this is not teachable because I don't believe its true".

EDIT: didn't read your entire post till after. I think whenever the normal time it is during class that evolution is taught, the parents should be notified to make a choice amongst which avenue they want their child schooled in.

 

[wiin]

I disagree so please prove your evolutionary theory with hard facts, not another theory.

Originally posted by: Vic
Let me just be the first to chime in this thread and say that evolution is a fact. While I'm not a biologist (prefer physics), I'd be happy to discuss details with those who disagree. I'd also like to find out just why you think this theory undermines your religious faith, when the larger consensus (outside of fundie churches and the south) is that science is discovering the glory of God. And I want to stress that last part for the religious faithful, as I grew up in a devout young earth creationist faith myself. However glorious you imagine God to be, absolutely pales in comparison to what science has discovered that God is. So what's the fight here? I dunno. I vaguely remember being taught to distrust science, but the logic didn't hold up. As science is not incompatible with God, just the authority structure of religions.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

I see a reasonable discussion with you on this subject is pointless. We both made our opinions known and thats good enough for me.

Because what you are proposing is not reasonable.

Obviously not to people like you. You mind is set and anything but what you believe is "not reasonable". I don't give 2 shits about Creation, ID, or evolution as to how "man" came to be. It isn't something that drives me everyday and I'd say doesn't drive most. I'd think that only the 2% on each end of the spectrum really "care" about this and get their panties all twisted over it.

That all being said, it looks as thought the law allows the districts to make the choice so it does not FORCE anything and frankly the more local the choices when it comes to education the better when it comes to the details of the curriculum whereas the state and Fed should have broad guidelines(with the Fed being the broadest).

Also, some here keep trying to use "creationism" and "ID" as the same thing. They are not from what I understand of the subject. "ID" does not exclude "evolution" whereas the two others exclude each other.

Yes, my mind is already made up about scientific facts. I also do not have an open mind on the idea of gravity. What's your point?

For the purposes of this discussion they are the same. They both rely on unscientific supernatural causes to explain how life got to where it is today. (ok, the ID people say it could be aliens or something too, but they still rely on some arbitrary thing that they cannot provide evidence for) Nobody but the most insane creationists would attempt to deny evolution in its totality as it can literally be demonstrated in a lab. They both just draw a magical line and say that things can change a little but not a lot. (with no evidence for why). This is why ID and Creationism are lumped together, because all ID is is creationism dressed up in a lab coat.

What you are doing right now is subscribing to the 'teach the controversy' line of dishonest argument that ID people use all the time. As someone mentioned earlier this would be a completely reasonable standpoint if both points of view were equally valid and well supported. It might even be reasonable if there was the slightest shred of evidence for Creationism and ID. Unfortunately there isn't.

This law doesn't promote 'academic freedom', this law allows school boards to place discredited pseudo scientific literature in the classroom in the service of ideology. School boards should have a lot of leeway in what they teach their kids, but they don't have the leeway to teach them fairy tales instead of facts.

I'm not sure why I bother with you.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

It does not matter to me whether you or anyone else thinks its ridiculous. But to clarify, you could have two class rooms, one teaches evolution while the other Intelligent design. For that class parents would choose which their child would attend.

There are millions of people that believe God made man while there are also millions that say evolution from apes are what became man. It is unfair for one to lord over the other and say "this is not teachable because I don't believe its true".

EDIT: didn't read your entire post till after. I think whenever the normal time it is during class that evolution is taught, the parents should be notified to make a choice amongst which avenue they want their child schooled in.

So again, you are saying that everyone is entitled to their own facts. Sorry man, but that's a load of crap.

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

Originally posted by: Excelsior

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

You can still be taught whatever you like. Just that your truth is not everyone's truth.

Are you trying to argue that everyone is entitled to their own facts?

I am saying that if someone believes we came here through ID then they should be encouraged to pursue that avenue. I think you're stretching it out to other subjects of which I am not. As for evolution and intelligent design, both should be taught to whomever has interest.

You may not believe in ID or God saying "let there be man", but that should not be discouraged IMO. You or your children likewise should not be required to learn that if they choose not to.

Could you clarify the statement in bold? It sounds like you're proposing that kids should be able to choose what they want to learn in public school (not counting electives). That is pretty much the most ridiculous idea I've read in concerning education in a while. There are required classes in every school system. The standard ones such as chemistry, biology, English, history...do you think kids should be allowed to opt out of Biology in favor of a creationism class?

It does not matter to me whether you or anyone else thinks its ridiculous. But to clarify, you could have two class rooms, one teaches evolution while the other Intelligent design. For that class parents would choose which their child would attend.

There are millions of people that believe God made man while there are also millions that say evolution from apes are what became man. It is unfair for one to lord over the other and say "this is not teachable because I don't believe its true".

EDIT: didn't read your entire post till after. I think whenever the normal time it is during class that evolution is taught, the parents should be notified to make a choice amongst which avenue they want their child schooled in.

The reason Creationism isn't teachable is that there is no evidence to support it. It has nothing to do with what people believe.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: wiin
I disagree so please prove your evolutionary theory with hard facts, not another theory.

Originally posted by: Vic
Let me just be the first to chime in this thread and say that evolution is a fact. While I'm not a biologist (prefer physics), I'd be happy to discuss details with those who disagree. I'd also like to find out just why you think this theory undermines your religious faith, when the larger consensus (outside of fundie churches and the south) is that science is discovering the glory of God. And I want to stress that last part for the religious faithful, as I grew up in a devout young earth creationist faith myself. However glorious you imagine God to be, absolutely pales in comparison to what science has discovered that God is. So what's the fight here? I dunno. I vaguely remember being taught to distrust science, but the logic didn't hold up. As science is not incompatible with God, just the authority structure of religions.

There you go.

 

[Darwin333]

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

Originally posted by: Excelsior

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

You can still be taught whatever you like. Just that your truth is not everyone's truth.

Are you trying to argue that everyone is entitled to their own facts?

I am saying that if someone believes we came here through ID then they should be encouraged to pursue that avenue. I think you're stretching it out to other subjects of which I am not. As for evolution and intelligent design, both should be taught to whomever has interest.

You may not believe in ID or God saying "let there be man", but that should not be discouraged IMO. You or your children likewise should not be required to learn that if they choose not to.

Could you clarify the statement in bold? It sounds like you're proposing that kids should be able to choose what they want to learn in public school (not counting electives). That is pretty much the most ridiculous idea I've read in concerning education in a while. There are required classes in every school system. The standard ones such as chemistry, biology, English, history...do you think kids should be allowed to opt out of Biology in favor of a creationism class?

It does not matter to me whether you or anyone else thinks its ridiculous. But to clarify, you could have two class rooms, one teaches evolution while the other Intelligent design. For that class parents would choose which their child would attend.

There are millions of people that believe God made man while there are also millions that say evolution from apes are what became man. It is unfair for one to lord over the other and say "this is not teachable because I don't believe its true".

EDIT: didn't read your entire post till after. I think whenever the normal time it is during class that evolution is taught, the parents should be notified to make a choice amongst which avenue they want their child schooled in.

What millions of people believe is not relevant to the discussion. We are talking about science class . You can't just make something up and teach it as a theory. There are multiple steps and benchmarks that must be met in order for a hypothesis (I don't think ID even qualifies as a hypothesis) to become a theory. When you can actually argue that ID is a true scientific theory get back to me, until then keep it out of our science books.

Not to mention that by not teaching them evolution you could be seriously handicapping them.

 

[BeauJangles]

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

Originally posted by: Excelsior

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

You can still be taught whatever you like. Just that your truth is not everyone's truth.

Are you trying to argue that everyone is entitled to their own facts?

I am saying that if someone believes we came here through ID then they should be encouraged to pursue that avenue. I think you're stretching it out to other subjects of which I am not. As for evolution and intelligent design, both should be taught to whomever has interest.

You may not believe in ID or God saying "let there be man", but that should not be discouraged IMO. You or your children likewise should not be required to learn that if they choose not to.

Could you clarify the statement in bold? It sounds like you're proposing that kids should be able to choose what they want to learn in public school (not counting electives). That is pretty much the most ridiculous idea I've read in concerning education in a while. There are required classes in every school system. The standard ones such as chemistry, biology, English, history...do you think kids should be allowed to opt out of Biology in favor of a creationism class?

It does not matter to me whether you or anyone else thinks its ridiculous. But to clarify, you could have two class rooms, one teaches evolution while the other Intelligent design. For that class parents would choose which their child would attend.

There are millions of people that believe God made man while there are also millions that say evolution from apes are what became man. It is unfair for one to lord over the other and say "this is not teachable because I don't believe its true".

EDIT: didn't read your entire post till after. I think whenever the normal time it is during class that evolution is taught, the parents should be notified to make a choice amongst which avenue they want their child schooled in.

How about we let parents decide between two classrooms:

- one that teaches the Holocaust killed 11 million people and that the Nazis were bad and another that teaches the Nazis were good and all those Jews, homosexuals, and other "undesirables" mysteriously vanished?

- one that teaches that the North won the Civil War and another that teaches the South won?

- one that teaches that green is green and blue is blue and another that teaches red is yellow and black is white?

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
It does not matter to me whether you or anyone else thinks its ridiculous. But to clarify, you could have two class rooms, one teaches evolution while the other Intelligent design. For that class parents would choose which their child would attend.

There are millions of people that believe God made man while there are also millions that say evolution from apes are what became man. It is unfair for one to lord over the other and say "this is not teachable because I don't believe its true".

EDIT: didn't read your entire post till after. I think whenever the normal time it is during class that evolution is taught, the parents should be notified to make a choice amongst which avenue they want their child schooled in.

Parents already have more than ample time, freedom, and resources to teach their children their religious traditions at home and in the church of their choice.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Butterbean

Originally posted by: Vic

Second, we are descended from apes. Not directly, but through common ancestors. Get used it. It's a proven fact.

Your persuading me that some of us are

That's okay, I already knew that you're a racist.

Sadly for your whacked beliefs, science has already proven that all of humanity is more than 99% genetically identical.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Vic
Parents already have more than ample time, freedom, and resources to teach their children their religious traditions at home and in the church of their choice.

:thumbsup: Exactly! Let's keep science class limited to science and you religious folks can induge yourself and your kids on your own time. kthnx.

 

[First]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

I see a reasonable discussion with you on this subject is pointless. We both made our opinions known and thats good enough for me.

Because what you are proposing is not reasonable.

Obviously not to people like you. You mind is set and anything but what you believe is "not reasonable".

Any reasonable, educated person does not believe anything but evolution and similar off-shoots should be taught in schools in a science class. You couldn't successfully argue otherwise if your life depended on it, either.

 

[DealMonkey]

In the end it won't matter, the various school boards in Lousiana that attempt to push the boundaries of constitutionality will end up getting served with some nice legal papers from the ACLU and/or other orgs that fight these sort of ridiculous efforts to blur church-state separation. The real losers will be the students as their school's bleed cash to fight all of the legal challenges. Good luck with that!

 

[ericlp]

Originally posted by: babylon5
The future of America demands getting rid of evil subject like science, and more religion!! See how well other countries are doing now when religion dominates society....hmmm

Yes, that is true... I wonder how many teachers left the state when they heard about this? If I was a teacher teaching I would have sent in my resignation already. This is sick times and I can blame bush for this as he is all for this type of BS.

No Child left behind. I think we just left the whole country behind. Now that the gates are open I wonder how many other states are going to be jumping on the bandwagon?

I swear we are heading back into the dark ages and soon you'll have to check off boxes for what religion you are to apply for jobs, credit cards and loans. Choose the wrong box and you'll likely see your credit score drop a few 100 points.

 

[SAWYER]

Why can't one believe in God and evolution?

 

[ericlp]

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

It does not matter to me whether you or anyone else thinks its ridiculous. But to clarify, you could have two class rooms, one teaches evolution while the other Intelligent design. For that class parents would choose which their child would attend.

There are millions of people that believe God made man while there are also millions that say evolution from apes are what became man. It is unfair for one to lord over the other and say "this is not teachable because I don't believe its true".

EDIT: didn't read your entire post till after. I think whenever the normal time it is during class that evolution is taught, the parents should be notified to make a choice amongst which avenue they want their child schooled in.

No No No... You can't straddle the fence on this one. You teach one as a whole or teach the other way around. What next the religious nuts are gonna start attacking math formula's ? Where do you draw the line? Maybe we should just start taxing the crap out of churches and religious schools already. It's pure BS. I sure hope the next president comes down hard on religion and get's up back on track. This BS has gone way too far.

It's Nut Cases like you that just add to our problems. Good Job freak.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Sawyer
Why can't one believe in God and evolution?

There is no reason why a person can't believe in both God and evolution. Not incompatible at all. In fact, adjust the time scales a little and the Genesis account in the Bible is remarkably similar to what science has discovered.

 

[judasmachine]

we are now free to be as dumb as we want to be.

pass the cheetos, ow my balls is on... [flushes lazyboy]

 

[SAWYER]

I think evolution is a tool of God. The Universe and life is far to complex for me to think it is all random chance.

 

[judasmachine]

I do have one serious question though...

If I graduated high school after being taught that Darwin was a mad heretic, and that God made everything, and fail out of college for my lack of knowledge, who can I sue?

 

[KIRBYEE]

.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Sawyer
I think evolution is a tool of God. The Universe and life is far to complex for me to think it is all random chance.

That's a perfectly fine belief IMO.

I personally don't feel that complexity provides proof against random chance, but this argument is circular.