Low Cost NAS Server

[ljbaumer]

Hey Everyone,

This is my first post in these forums as I just stumbled across them today through some searching about a NAS server which I am planning to be building so forgive me if I posted this is the wrong section.

Anyways, I read the sticky and here I go:

1. What YOUR PC will be used for. That means what types of tasks you'll be performing.

NAS server, aprox 6TB of available storage. Streaming video to my computers around the house or PS3.

2. What YOUR budget is. A price range is acceptable as long as it's not more than a 20% spread

I'd like to keep it as cheap as possible but I haven't really defined any limits so far.

3. What country YOU will be buying YOUR parts from.

U.S.
California to be specific

4. IF you're buying parts OUTSIDE the US, please post a link to the vendor you'll be buying from.
We can't be expected to scour the internet on your behalf, chasing down deals in your specific country... Again, help us, help YOU.

N/A

5. IF YOU have a brand preference. That means, are you an Intel-Fanboy, AMD-Fanboy, ATI-Fanboy, nVidia-Fanboy, Seagate-Fanboy, WD-Fanboy, etc.

None at all, I am just trying to keep it cheap and functional

6. If YOU intend on using any of YOUR current parts, and if so, what those parts are.

I don't have a large selection of parts but I do have 2x 1gb of crucial RAM (200 pin) http://www.crucial.com/store/partspe...e=ct12864ac667 which I thought I could potentially use.

7. IF YOU plan on overclocking or run the system at default speeds.

Probably not since it is just going to be NAS


8. What resolution, not monitor size, will you be using?

Headless

9. WHEN do you plan to build it?
Note that it is usually not cost or time effective to choose your build more than a month before you actually plan to be using it.

As soon as I get the build sorted out I am planning on building the build.

X. Do you need to purchase any software to go with the system, such as Windows or Blu Ray playback software?

Nope

So far I have been doing some research today and this is what I was thinking of doing:

• Jetway JNC96-525 1.8GHz Fanless Mini-ITX Motherboard with 12V DC In
  
• CFI‐A2059 Value NAS Chassis 300W (2 Hot Swap HDD + Internal HDD + Optical Bay)

but I didn't really explore any AMD options and I haven't really figured out what HDDs I wanted or if these parts will even work well.

Any suggestions are much appreciated!

Thanks,
ljbaumer

 

[mfenn]

A couple of DDR2 SODIMMs aren't going to be terribly useful I'm afraid.

I have a few more questions for you:

- What OS are you planning to use? Does that need to be included?
- Any physical space/size considerations? I see that you're looking at ITX boards, but I wanted to double-check.
- Strictly streaming workloads? How many clients? I can see going for a 2+1 RAID5 with 3TB drives or a 3+1 RAID5 with 2TB drives. The 2TB drive version would be more costly, but would be higher performance.

 

[ljbaumer]

I was planning on using FreeNAS + ZFS and there aren't any specific sizes that I need to fit it into although I guess I would prefer smaller. But size is one of the last things I am taking into consideration.

At the same time at most 2 clients. But not just streaming, I would also use it as backup and maybe if it's possible in the future if I set up home surveillance i could use it as a DVR for daily recordings? And also what do you mean by the 2tb version being higher performance? How would it be different?

Thanks for your reply!

 

[k1114]

As someone who is in the middle of transitioning away from an atom based setup, I high recommend you don't go that route if you plan on doing any streaming. I used an Atom based mini-ITX board for FreeNAS w/ZFS and two drives and it worked great, but steaming was just out of the question.

 

[ljbaumer]

As someone who is in the middle of transitioning away from an atom based setup, I high recommend you don't go that route if you plan on doing any streaming.

What are the negatives of an atom based system? Can they not handle streaming?

Thanks!
ljbaumer

 

[mfenn]

I was planning on using FreeNAS + ZFS and there aren't any specific sizes that I need to fit it into although I guess I would prefer smaller. But size is one of the last things I am taking into consideration.

At the same time at most 2 clients. But not just streaming, I would also use it as backup and maybe if it's possible in the future if I set up home surveillance i could use it as a DVR for daily recordings? And also what do you mean by the 2tb version being higher performance? How would it be different?

Thanks for your reply!

The 2TB setup is faster because it uses 4 drives instead of 3. More spindles equals more performance. Also, for ZFS you definitely want a good amount of CPU grunt and RAM.

So I guess this is where the "as cheap as possible" part comes into play. A Linux setup with normal software RAID and LVM (or even FreeNAS using UFS) will be a lot cheaper than a machine that can properly handle ZFS. Are you willing to give up the ZFS features (checksum on read, snapshots, lazy allocation, quotas) in order to lower the cost?

 

[mfenn]

What are the negatives of an atom based system? Can they not handle streaming?

Thanks!
ljbaumer

Atom is a very very slow CPU and cannot handle any sort of assisted streaming (transcoding on the server) nor can it handle ZFS.

 

[ljbaumer]

Ok thanks!

I am willing to give up ZFS for price but I am not willing to give up transcoding or streaming ability so I guess I will be skipping atom processors. I need the transcoding for streaming to a PS3.

 

[k1114]

What are the negatives of an atom based system? Can they not handle streaming?

Thanks!
ljbaumer

Atoms are.... "barely breathing" for a lack of better term. Streaming is rough at best, and transcoding is effectively impossible. ZFS with more than two drives will suffer badly.

I would recommend starting by figuring out your software approach, and then working out your hardware requirements based on that. Are you sure FreeNAS is the right choice for an OS? I went through FreeNAS, Openfiler, CentOS/RHEL, WHS, WHS 2011, and SBS 2011 E before deciding on an OS. Streaming was a whole other battle - what common streaming software will all of your clients support? What are it's requirements?

 

[mfenn]

So, with that out of the way, can you give us a hard budget? "As cheap as possible" isn't too useful, because everybody has a different preference in what compromises they're willing to make. Some people will live with a $400 machines because it's $400, others would rather spend more on a $500 machine.

As a starting point, you're looking at $350-400 in drives alone.

 

[ljbaumer]

Atoms are.... "barely breathing" for a lack of better term. Streaming is rough at best, and transcoding is effectively impossible. ZFS with more than two drives will suffer badly.

I would recommend starting by figuring out your software approach, and then working out your hardware requirements based on that. Are you sure FreeNAS is the right choice for an OS? I went through FreeNAS, Openfiler, CentOS/RHEL, WHS, WHS 2011, and SBS 2011 E before deciding on an OS. Streaming was a whole other battle - what common streaming software will all of your clients support? What are it's requirements?

I am not set on using FreeNAS but from I've read it seems very usable but if there are any other alternatives that you recommend I am happy to check them out and switch over. As I think I stated earlier I am pretty new to this so I am open to anything for this and am just trying to learn

I will be streaming to MAC's running OSX 10.6 and 10.8 and a PS3. I can make them run other OS's if it makes it easier and I can install linux software onto the main MAC that I will be using through FINK and such.

Thanks again,
ljbaumer

 

[ljbaumer]

So, with that out of the way, can you give us a hard budget? "As cheap as possible" isn't too useful, because everybody has a different preference in what compromises they're willing to make. Some people will live with a $400 machines because it's $400, others would rather spend more on a $500 machine.

As a starting point, you're looking at $350-400 in drives alone.

Ok, so since I am going to spend $350-$400 on driver I am looking to spend around $700 if possible to get a machine capable of streaming and backup going.

thanks,
ljbaumer

 

[mfenn]

Hmm, OK so 3 drives it is, you don't have the budget for the faster 4-drive setup.

i3 3220 $130
ASRock B75M-DGS $58
G.Skill DDR3 1333 8GB $42
Toshiba 3TB 7200RPM x3 $405
CX430 $28
NZXT Source 210 $30
Total: $693

This is about the minimum machine that can do the job. It's only got 3 drives, so don't expect to be streaming from 3 clients AND backing up AND running a surveillance system at the same time. It's also only got a dual-core, so you will only be able to transcode to one machine at a time (maybe 2 at low quality settings).

Also, there is no separate OS disk, so I recommend installing that on a USB stick.

 

[ljbaumer]

Hmm, OK so 3 drives it is, you don't have the budget for the faster 4-drive setup.

i3 3220 $130
ASRock B75M-DGS $58
G.Skill DDR3 1333 8GB $42
Toshiba 3TB 7200RPM x3 $405
CX430 $28
NZXT Source 210 $30
Total: $693

This is about the minimum machine that can do the job. It's only got 3 drives, so don't expect to be streaming from 3 clients AND backing up AND running a surveillance system at the same time. It's also only got a dual-core, so you will only be able to transcode to one machine at a time (maybe 2 at low quality settings).

Also, there is no separate OS disk, so I recommend installing that on a USB stick.

Wow thank you so much!

I will definitely run the OS of a USB drive as I see no reason to do otherwise. As for the OS, do you think FreeNAS will do the job? I am completely open to other operating systems but I don't really know of a lot of NAS OS's aside from a couple linux ones, I am looking to run free software although I am willing to pay some small fees if it really is going to make a difference.

Once again, thanks a ton for all your help!
ljbaumer

 

[k1114]

Edit: lemme take this long post and shorten it waaaaaay down.

I think you should build with powerful enough hardware to switch to a windows based OS if you aren't happy with FreeNAS. The components listed above are great, though you'll need a 160gb+ OS drive if you want the option to make the switch later. Once you start trying to setup batch transcoding, itunes streaming, security dvr functionality, etc, you might find yourself disappointed with what FreeNAS can do for you.

Also, check out stablebit.com as an example of what drive pooling in windows can offer you.

 

[ljbaumer]

Edit: lemme take this long post and shorten it waaaaaay down.

I think you should build with powerful enough hardware to switch to a windows based OS if you aren't happy with FreeNAS. The components listed above are great, though you'll need a 160gb+ OS drive if you want the option to make the switch later. Once you start trying to setup batch transcoding, itunes streaming, security dvr functionality, etc, you might find yourself disappointed with what FreeNAS can do for you.

Also, check out stablebit.com as an example of what drive pooling in windows can offer you.

Thanks,

Can you give me the links to some of the OS's I could potentially run for my NAS server so I could check them out and read up on them? I have an 80GB HDD sitting around my house... could I use that as a OS drive instead?

Also would I need a monitor for the server if I am going to be installing all this other software for other features like stablebit? Or could I just manage it over the network from another machine? Would MAC's work with Windows Home Server 2011? (2007?)

Also what do you guys think of unRAID? I've read some really positive things about it.

Thanks again,
ljbaumer

 

[smitbret]

Sounds like you're in the same boat as I am/was. I too need a NAS setup and I want it to stream video to 5 different locations, 4 of which will need transcoding. I also will be running a headless system.

So, my evolution has gone something like this:

FreeNAS
unRAID
WHS 2011 + FlexRAID
WinXP 64-bit + FlexRAID

From my research, FreeNAS with a RAIDz1 or RAIDz2 is simply the fastest and has the best set of error controls. But after awhile I realized its more of an enterprise solution, uses more resources and will require a bit more intervention and I really want a set it and forget it type of thing.

So I looked into unRAID. Rock solid stability, freedom to expand storage by just throwing in a drive, runs off a flash drive, great parity system, drive sizes can be mixed and matched without any storage penalties, does not require any kind of high-end hardware (you can run it off an old Sempron or even Atom system) and it can still easily stream to 3 or 4 devices at the same time. It has a Plex plugin, so if you up the power of the CPU it will take care of all streaming/transcoding tasks. If I wasn't so tied to my current DLNA serving software, this would still be the way I would go.

FlexRAID offers similar features as unRAID but has to run on top of an existing OS. I am going this route because I can run my DLNA software in Windows and manage everything through remote desktop from any other PC in the house.

I'm still a couple of weeks out from the build so I may change my mind again, but I doubt it. If I was a little more convinced of the stability of FlexRAID's Realtime RAID it would be a wash.

 

[k1114]

You won't need a monitor with any OS, as long as you have a monitor you can use long enough for the initial install. With a windows based OS you will just use remote destkop or a web interface. With FreeBSD/*NIX you're going to use ssh/telnet and a web interface.

I've tried unRAID before, but the problem I ran into is lack of flexibility. There are some decent plugins, but what you get is what you get for the most part. FlexRAID (mentioned above) is a similar product to StableBit; it's going to give you a really flexible way to create drive pools, and isn't dependent on having a specific OS installed. It's more expensive than StableBit, but is compatible with more operating systems.

The OS is really just going to come down to exactly what you need and how comfortable you are with the one you choose. I'm in the middle of a new build right now and I'm 99% confident that I will go with SBS 2011 essentails again, or Server 2012 essentials (though I have a MSDN license, so I don't factor in cost - which you should)

 

[ljbaumer]

You won't need a monitor with any OS, as long as you have a monitor you can use long enough for the initial install. With a windows based OS you will just use remote destkop or a web interface. With FreeBSD/*NIX you're going to use ssh/telnet and a web interface.

I've tried unRAID before, but the problem I ran into is lack of flexibility. There are some decent plugins, but what you get is what you get for the most part. FlexRAID (mentioned above) is a similar product to StableBit; it's going to give you a really flexible way to create drive pools, and isn't dependent on having a specific OS installed. It's more expensive than StableBit, but is compatible with more operating systems.

The OS is really just going to come down to exactly what you need and how comfortable you are with the one you choose. I'm in the middle of a new build right now and I'm 99% confident that I will go with SBS 2011 essentails again, or Server 2012 essentials (though I have a MSDN license, so I don't factor in cost - which you should)

Alright thanks for your tips!

I have a license to 2008 SBS... would that work just as well? Or will it not be the same experience as using SBS 2011 or 2012? I don't think I'm willing to shell out $400 for server software... Also are there any websites where I can find plugins and applications built for SBS?

Sounds like you're in the same boat as I am/was. I too need a NAS setup and I want it to stream video to 5 different locations, 4 of which will need transcoding. I also will be running a headless system.

So, my evolution has gone something like this:

FreeNAS
unRAID
WHS 2011 + FlexRAID
WinXP 64-bit + FlexRAID

From my research, FreeNAS with a RAIDz1 or RAIDz2 is simply the fastest and has the best set of error controls. But after awhile I realized its more of an enterprise solution, uses more resources and will require a bit more intervention and I really want a set it and forget it type of thing.

So I looked into unRAID. Rock solid stability, freedom to expand storage by just throwing in a drive, runs off a flash drive, great parity system, drive sizes can be mixed and matched without any storage penalties, does not require any kind of high-end hardware (you can run it off an old Sempron or even Atom system) and it can still easily stream to 3 or 4 devices at the same time. It has a Plex plugin, so if you up the power of the CPU it will take care of all streaming/transcoding tasks. If I wasn't so tied to my current DLNA serving software, this would still be the way I would go.

FlexRAID offers similar features as unRAID but has to run on top of an existing OS. I am going this route because I can run my DLNA software in Windows and manage everything through remote desktop from any other PC in the house.

I'm still a couple of weeks out from the build so I may change my mind again, but I doubt it. If I was a little more convinced of the stability of FlexRAID's Realtime RAID it would be a wash.

Thanks for all of your input,

I am all set on the hardware now and I am just deciding wether I want to use Freenas/unRAID OR a windows based solution...

I am thinking of siding with unRAID just because it seems very simple to use although I am glad that people pointed out that I have sufficient power to run a windows server... I am still not entirely sure what the advantages of a windows server are...

Maybe someone could give me a pointer to a comparison? I did a couple google searches and I just found forum posts with people's opinions and no just feature comparisons.

Either way any input is really appreciated.

thanks,
ljbaumer

 

[mfenn]

Can you give me the links to some of the OS's I could potentially run for my NAS server so I could check them out and read up on them? I have an 80GB HDD sitting around my house... could I use that as a OS drive instead?

Would work fine as a long as it's SATA.

As for software, FreeNAS is what it says on the tin, a NAS. It is not that good at doing transcoding, but it is a really good NAS.

If I were doing this myself, I'd probably run Ubuntu with the ZFS on Linux kernel patches, Plex to do transcoding and fancy presentation for "dumb" devices, and Samba for "smart" devices like PCs and Macs.

That while thing probably a little complex for somebody who hasn't played with Linux much. However, ZFS is what really adds the complexity. You could do nearly the same thing (just less flexible) with normal Linux software RAID and LVM, which I'm pretty sure you can set up through the Ubuntu installer.

 

[SViscusi]

If you only have a 3 drive setup you might want to consider using unRaid. Quite a few people have done what you want to do so there's a lot of help out there.

This thread may help you a bit:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1418882/building-a-plex-unraid-based-whole-house-media-solution

 

[Glamorous]

I've found that ubuntu + samba + mediatomb, similar to the line of thought mfenn has, works fine for streaming to pcs + dlna devices. Mediatomb is also capable of transcoding but I've never used that functionality. I do run into network bottlenecks if I'm copying and watching at the same time, but that's what I get for not using a gigabit switch.

 

[ljbaumer]

Would work fine as a long as it's SATA.

As for software, FreeNAS is what it says on the tin, a NAS. It is not that good at doing transcoding, but it is a really good NAS.

If I were doing this myself, I'd probably run Ubuntu with the ZFS on Linux kernel patches, Plex to do transcoding and fancy presentation for "dumb" devices, and Samba for "smart" devices like PCs and Macs.

That while thing probably a little complex for somebody who hasn't played with Linux much. However, ZFS is what really adds the complexity. You could do nearly the same thing (just less flexible) with normal Linux software RAID and LVM, which I'm pretty sure you can set up through the Ubuntu installer.

I'm actually not too bad with linux, I just am really new to servers

So I am starting to really like this idea of just going with Ubuntu-12.04.2 server LTS and then adding in ZFS... if I were to add in ZFS would I just use something like this? https://launchpad.net/~zfs-native/+archive/stable/

If you only have a 3 drive setup you might want to consider using unRaid. Quite a few people have done what you want to do so there's a lot of help out there.

This thread may help you a bit:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1418882/building-a-plex-unraid-based-whole-house-media-solution

Thanks for the link, I'll make sure to check it out. At this point I am deciding between unRAID and Ubuntu because I have pretty much ruled out the windows alternative since I don't really want to pay all of the licensing fees and from what I have been told FreeNAS may not be all that great for what I am doing.

Thanks to both of you,
ljbaumer

 

[mfenn]

I'm actually not too bad with linux, I just am really new to servers

So I am starting to really like this idea of just going with Ubuntu-12.04.2 server LTS and then adding in ZFS... if I were to add in ZFS would I just use something like this? https://launchpad.net/~zfs-native/+archive/stable/

Yep, that's it. Here's the official site. The developers mainly work on Ubuntu LTS, so you've already picked the best platform for ZFS on Linux.

Thanks for the link, I'll make sure to check it out. At this point I am deciding between unRAID and Ubuntu because I have pretty much ruled out the windows alternative since I don't really want to pay all of the licensing fees and from what I have been told FreeNAS may not be all that great for what I am doing.

Thanks to both of you,
ljbaumer

I would always go with a general purpose distro if you are comfortable setting up a Linux system. You lose the fancy web interface, but you more than make up for that in flexibility (IMHO).

 

[ljbaumer]

Yep, that's it. Here's the official site. The developers mainly work on Ubuntu LTS, so you've already picked the best platform for ZFS on Linux.



I would always go with a general purpose distro if you are comfortable setting up a Linux system. You lose the fancy web interface, but you more than make up for that in flexibility (IMHO).

Thanks once again! You've been immensely helpful, so here's my final question (I think), is there software to make a web interface so that I can access my linux server and have more of a FreeNAS style interface instead of having to just SSH into it? It is not necessary at all and really I am just curious since I am fine with working from shell but I am a little curious and other people in my household might want it, although once again, not necessary for the NAS.

Thanks,
ljbaumer