Low-jitter/low-latency hardware.

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Aug 25, 2012
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I am going to build a new PC. I want the cheapest possible PC, with regards to low-jitter/low-latency. So it will be based on Intel E5.

The cheapest E5 is 2603.

If anyone is "jitter-aware" and know good components with minimal jitter, (cheap low-latency ram, etc) please recommend it here.

The only component of not cheapest price, will be the gfx-card which will require some power, for current games.

Peace Be With You.

Closing this as the OP has said the thread is useless and since he insists on being a jerk.
Admin allisolm
 
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harrkev

Senior member
May 10, 2004
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Huh? I don't get it. Jitter is defined as a period-to-period difference of a clock from an ideal clock at the same frequency. Using modern hardware, it simply doesn't matter. An ultra-clean clock with absolutely NO jitter might allow you to overclock your hardware by a few tens of Herts (not giga-Herts, not mega-Hertz, just Hertz).

Now, latency is another issue entirely. What do you need this for? The operating system has a MUCH MUCH larger impact on latency comapred to the individual components in standard PC hardware. Maybe you need a real-time OS (RTOS). For the absolute lowest latency, ditch the OS entirely and code to run on bare-metal.
 
Aug 25, 2012
27
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Huh? I don't get it. Jitter is defined as a period-to-period difference of a clock from an ideal clock at the same frequency. Using modern hardware, it simply doesn't matter. An ultra-clean clock with absolutely NO jitter might allow you to overclock your hardware by a few tens of Herts (not giga-Herts, not mega-Hertz, just Hertz).

Now, latency is another issue entirely. What do you need this for? The operating system has a MUCH MUCH larger impact on latency comapred to the individual components in standard PC hardware. Maybe you need a real-time OS (RTOS). For the absolute lowest latency, ditch the OS entirely and code to run on bare-metal.

I have been tuning OS lately, and it seems to be sensitive to even small jitter. So I want to reduce it as much as possible. I am aware though, that one can write directly to the hardware. Unfortunately no mainstream OS uses programming this way anymore. Definately one could tune up OS`s and use some more low-level programming, to reduce os-jitter and latency. It is odd, that a c64 in some respects, outperform modern os`s. However, this thread is about low-latency/minimal-jitter hardware.

Peace Be With You.
 
Aug 25, 2012
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For instance, if you know about good h/w, for this consideration, please help me fill in

Cooling: low noise.
Power: sufficient, quiet.
Mainboard: Z77 chipset based? Must support PCIe3.0 in Xeon-E5, and USB 3.0
CPU: Intel Xeon E5-2603 4cores,1.8ghz.
DDR3 RAM: fastest 4GB
SSD : cheapest 100GB
Gfx: Nvidia GTX 6×0? (PCIe 3.0) Must play well with contemporary games, but does not need much antialiasing etc.
Keyboard: Tasteful Black. (no red lights or other weirdness)
Mouse: Tasteful Black (m/scrollwheel)

Peace Be With You.
 

TuxDave

Lifer
Oct 8, 2002
10,572
3
71
Maybe you can help us a little. So what components do you know that is "high jitter" or "low jitter"? My brain is a little stuck on VLSI design and so I can't possibly imagine how you would be able to control jitter. Are you going to shield your CPU in a temperature/pressure controlled environment and replace the oscillators with something like:

http://phys.org/news/2011-11-team-nuclear-clock-accurate-atomic.html

But yeah, if you could provide any example of a PC component that mentions jitter, I'm sure that'll kick start this conversation.
 

Zap

Elite Member
Oct 13, 1999
22,377
2
81
Closest thing I can think of to what you are describing as "jitter" is DPC latency. Anandtech motherboard reviews now measure this. Here is a recent one.

Probably any of the boards before latency shoots up would be sufficient.

For your other parts...

Just use a normal Core i5. No need to use a Xeon.

If using a 64-bit OS, go with 8GB RAM. With RAM, find something 1.5v (or lower) that is 1600MHz (or higher) and CAS latency 9 (or lower).

Don't get the "cheapest 100GB SSD." Get a good one, for instance something like the new/upcoming Samsung 840 Pro. The SSD is probably the best thing in the world for making a system "snappier."

Oh yeah, and "I want the cheapest possible PC" may not be the best approach if you are going to be nit picky about fine details. This doesn't mean you need to get really expensive hardware. It just means you may have to step up a notch from the "cheapest."
 
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Aug 25, 2012
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Well jitter does start with the clock ofcourse, but we don`t need to use a million bucks for specifically tailored hardware. The industry is already at a point where low-latency, and jitter is considered, for instance in low-latency trading, which has some of the lowest latency figures I have seen so far, some talking about 800uS latency.

So I guess I should look there first for common configurations. I am also aiming to do this as cheaply as possible. So it probably won`t be too radical. Just some fastest ram, ofcourse is an obvious jitter-reducer, + a good chipset.

About DPC latency, I am already running with 5uS DPC latency here. The windows scheduler is quite poor, and removing components improves DPC latency considerably.

If anything I would appreciate DPC latency measurements, after having done this: http://paradoxuncreated.com/Blog/wordpress/?p=1783

This is not mainly a windows-machine though, but a linux one. and I have already done much configuration to reduce jitter & latency.

http://paradoxuncreated.com/Blog/wordpress/?p=2268

And I am very pleased with the results. A much faster and responsive computer, without frameloss, and constant smooth OpenGL, like one was running on a vintage machine, without "OS".

Based on that I now want a computer, with jitter-reduction where I can.

Peace Be With You.
 

harrkev

Senior member
May 10, 2004
659
0
71
Ok. What is the point of "low jitter." I assume that you are not concerned about clock jitter, but the latency of the PC reacting to some event.

What are you trying to accomplish? Digital audio work? Flight control system for a missile? Give us a clue here...

***EDIT***

If what you are referring to is DPC latency, that seems to me much more a function of the drivers and the OS rather than the hardware itself (OK, well the hardware needs the drivers).
 
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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,041
10,222
136
Admittedly I don't like to jump on the bandwagon of nay-saying your idea (on another forum I go on the general opinion seems to be "tweaking is bad", but my feeling about that is that you'll never learn anything about an OS if you don't play around with it), but reading your tweak guide and also taking a look at the readings I get from dpclat is that a) I think you're sacrificing security for a slightly smoother frame rate and b) you're probably switching off power-saving features and all sorts in the process.

The reason why I mentioned the second point is that the latency readings on my system go down if either I'm running a standard 'balanced' Win7 power profile and do something processor intensive or if I disable processor power management and have it go 100% all the time.

I am worried that you're sacrificing too much for too little for the sake of Half-Life 2 frame rates.
 
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Aug 25, 2012
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Lol, you will not believed how many who does not understand what I am doing People generally think the system isn`t sensitive to microseconds, but it is.

In the audioworld, you have the concept "psychoacoustics". Small changes in sound, that alters how you percieve it. That is indeed, many who do not understand either. Yet audiophiles talk about small changes in sound that can be down to -300dB in difference. (You don`t believe it, fine, I didn`t believe it, until I actually made a dither algorithm myself, and realized it sounded differently, when manipulating numbers that far down.)

In the videoworld, you have jitter related to framerate. Reduce it, and first framedrops will disappear, and when you get it really low, you get into "psychovisuals". First of all when everything gets smooth, you get a different idea of for instance, the enemies in a game. They get fiercer, and more constant. Also you tend to expect more of them, because everything is running so smoothly. And suboptimal animations, become unwanted, bad taste in the game, is so clearly a weakness, so the expectations to quality rises.

Also, jitter behaves similarly to how an overloaded machine behaves. No jitter = better percieved performance.

That is why I am doing this, and also because I have had vintage machines, that has no jitter. Imagine a c64 running completely smooth, with instant audio etc, in games like "Mega Apocalypse", feeding samples with CPU and everything, lol. I just hate that paradigm of latency, that comes with modern high-level OS`s. I want it gone as much as possible.

And then you usually get a snappy system aswell. Just listing files in a file-explorer will be faster. Applications will load near instantly, at the press of a mousebutton. That is the kind of computer I want, and my amiga was also like that. One would think that these 1mhz and 7mhz computers, had been outperformed along time ago, by modern 5ghz computers, but that is not so. Programming paradigms, make them feel slower. And maybe even some stuff could be improved by h/w who knows. I have heard about hardware schedulers also. But in the mean time, I am just going to configure my software and hardware, for minimal jitter, so I am as close as I can be.

And all the stuff I turn off in windows, I never use. In return, I get an extremely smooth HL, and 1ms latency in Logic. And I am aiming at 0.2ms max latencies/jitter. Which at point, I will stop investigating. Then the computer feels as instant, as an Amiga. Very noticable with keypresses, and audio from it, etc.

In the mean time, I know that a whole lot of people are going to be recommending to keep the services on etc. Even in linux-environments people think this is uneccesary, but thank God, they are fewer there. Because ultimately if you want high technology, and your computer to be like a graphics workstation, then this is what you need to do.

Remember MS is a dollarmonkey. They forced realtime systems like BTron off the market. Instead they sold you CP/M, and later windows, which had 150ms latency, and sometimes even worse. They are not about quality, or enthusiasm. They see windowsblinds, and make a service on top of their poor scheduler, that is so sensitive to jitter, that only a minimal config, will give smooth games. Along with 200 other things that can be turned off. I mean seriously, don`t critic this if you haven`t played hl2 completely smooth, and know how lame it is when you see someone playing this with chopping and at times framerate reduced to 1/2 or sometimes even more, because of jitter.
That is retarded, and low-tech.

And even Einstein does math on infinitely small objects. Does such a thing exist? Is this a way of working on zero, or nothing? Yet many people call him a genious.
So don`t discuss with me please, this is what I want, and what I will do.

Peace Be With You.
 

ericloewe

Senior member
Dec 14, 2011
260
0
76
Lol, you will not believed how many who does not understand what I am doing People generally think the system isn`t sensitive to microseconds, but it is.

In the audioworld, you have the concept "psychoacoustics". Small changes in sound, that alters how you percieve it. That is indeed, many who do not understand either. Yet audiophiles talk about small changes in sound that can be down to -300dB in difference. (You don`t believe it, fine, I didn`t believe it, until I actually made a dither algorithm myself, and realized it sounded differently, when manipulating numbers that far down.)

In the videoworld, you have jitter related to framerate. Reduce it, and first framedrops will disappear, and when you get it really low, you get into "psychovisuals". First of all when everything gets smooth, you get a different idea of for instance, the enemies in a game. They get fiercer, and more constant. Also you tend to expect more of them, because everything is running so smoothly. And suboptimal animations, become unwanted, bad taste in the game, is so clearly a weakness, so the expectations to quality rises.

Also, jitter behaves similarly to how an overloaded machine behaves. No jitter = better percieved performance.

That is why I am doing this, and also because I have had vintage machines, that has no jitter. Imagine a c64 running completely smooth, with instant audio etc, in games like "Mega Apocalypse", feeding samples with CPU and everything, lol. I just hate that paradigm of latency, that comes with modern high-level OS`s. I want it gone as much as possible.

And then you usually get a snappy system aswell. Just listing files in a file-explorer will be faster. Applications will load near instantly, at the press of a mousebutton. That is the kind of computer I want, and my amiga was also like that. One would think that these 1mhz and 7mhz computers, had been outperformed along time ago, by modern 5ghz computers, but that is not so. Programming paradigms, make them feel slower. And maybe even some stuff could be improved by h/w who knows. I have heard about hardware schedulers also. But in the mean time, I am just going to configure my software and hardware, for minimal jitter, so I am as close as I can be.

And all the stuff I turn off in windows, I never use. In return, I get an extremely smooth HL, and 1ms latency in Logic. And I am aiming at 0.2ms max latencies/jitter. Which at point, I will stop investigating. Then the computer feels as instant, as an Amiga. Very noticable with keypresses, and audio from it, etc.

In the mean time, I know that a whole lot of people are going to be recommending to keep the services on etc. Even in linux-environments people think this is uneccesary, but thank God, they are fewer there. Because ultimately if you want high technology, and your computer to be like a graphics workstation, then this is what you need to do.

Remember MS is a dollarmonkey. They forced realtime systems like BTron off the market. Instead they sold you CP/M, and later windows, which had 150ms latency, and sometimes even worse. They are not about quality, or enthusiasm. They see windowsblinds, and make a service on top of their poor scheduler, that is so sensitive to jitter, that only a minimal config, will give smooth games. Along with 200 other things that can be turned off. I mean seriously, don`t critic this if you haven`t played hl2 completely smooth, and know how lame it is when you see someone playing this with chopping and at times framerate reduced to 1/2 or sometimes even more, because of jitter.
That is retarded, and low-tech.

And even Einstein does math on infinitely small objects. Does such a thing exist? Is this a way of working on zero, or nothing? Yet many people call him a genious.
So don`t discuss with me please, this is what I want, and what I will do.

Peace Be With You.

Not sure if trolling...

You claim to optimize OSes, but other than turning off this and that, you won't be making any changes. Anything you gain is minimal at best. You know what probably happens instead? Your processor
drops to a pseudo-sleep state until the OS starts processing stuff again.

You can't just replace all the clock generators in your system, especially because SB/IB integrated the CPU clock generator into the CPU. Those things generate clocks of 100MHz at a minimum. You would insult our intelligence by saying that you can perceive the difference between 100MHz and 99.999999MHz. Your nervous system takes at least a couple of ms just to get information to your brain. More than enough for thousands of cycles @ 2GHz.

While I have never used a C64, I have serious doubts that it was anywhere near instantaneous to react. Hardware latency has improved massively since then. Simple software reacts with 0 perceivable latency. Complex software is just that - complex. Good luck coding your favorite browser in Assembly. Might as well throw in every driver in the system.

Frankly, as harrkev suggested, it sounds terribly likely that you're looking for feedback on a missile control system. That's the kind of thing that needs the lowest possible latency. And jitter (I assume you mean variations in clock) is perfectly acceptable if everything is in sync or if it's one or two orders of magnitude smaller than the clock.
 
Aug 25, 2012
27
0
0
Not sure if trolling...

You claim to optimize OSes, but other than turning off this and that, you won't be making any changes. Anything you gain is minimal at best. You know what probably happens instead? Your processor
drops to a pseudo-sleep state until the OS starts processing stuff again.

You can't just replace all the clock generators in your system, especially because SB/IB integrated the CPU clock generator into the CPU. Those things generate clocks of 100MHz at a minimum. You would insult our intelligence by saying that you can perceive the difference between 100MHz and 99.999999MHz. Your nervous system takes at least a couple of ms just to get information to your brain. More than enough for thousands of cycles @ 2GHz.

While I have never used a C64, I have serious doubts that it was anywhere near instantaneous to react. Hardware latency has improved massively since then. Simple software reacts with 0 perceivable latency. Complex software is just that - complex. Good luck coding your favorite browser in Assembly. Might as well throw in every driver in the system.

Frankly, as harrkev suggested, it sounds terribly likely that you're looking for feedback on a missile control system. That's the kind of thing that needs the lowest possible latency. And jitter (I assume you mean variations in clock) is perfectly acceptable if everything is in sync or if it's one or two orders of magnitude smaller than the clock.

Ok, incase I didn`t make this clear, this is not the feedback I am looking for. Either provide information on topic, or avoid posting.

I am looking for LOWJITTER hardware, for highest busspeeds, highest/fastest ram timings etc, etc. Enthusiast/overclocking view appreciated.

I want the DATA ASAP.

Peace Be With You.
 
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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,041
10,222
136
@ Paradox_Uncr8ed

I realise this isn't helping answer your question, but I would like to see a Windows installation with ideal drivers and some serious benchmarking of a HL2 session, and then the same system after you've tweaked it up. Perhaps you ought to find out from techreport the system they use to detect late-served frames and let's see some results.

PS - I wrote this before ericloewe posted, came back to the computer later to find that I hadn't posted it yet.
 
Aug 25, 2012
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@ Paradox_Uncr8ed

I realise this isn't helping answer your question, but I would like to see a Windows installation with ideal drivers and some serious benchmarking of a HL2 session, and then the same system after you've tweaked it up. Perhaps you ought to find out from techreport the system they use to detect late-served frames and let's see some results.

PS - I wrote this before ericloewe posted, came back to the computer later to find that I hadn't posted it yet.

I think you should just try it, the results will be obvious. Instead of 5ms latency in windows, 1ms latency audio is stable. Instead of choppy HL2, ultrasmooth HL2. Unfortunately most people don`t measure framejitter. If you write to OpenGL, which is the fastest graphics system, just writing idenfical frames out, will give variation in FPS. Reducing that variation (jitter) will give a more stable OpenGL experience.

Some games are more sensitive to this than others. Doom 3 for instance, combines a particular timingcode, with several passes to OpenGL, that makes it very sensitive to jitter. Even with the tweak for windows, doom 3 will not play 100% smooth. It does that on Linux though, with a low-jitter kernel, and minimal daemons. Meaning that it is extremely sensitive to jitter.

Peace Be With You.
 
Aug 25, 2012
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In g.skill forum they liked this psu: Corsair AX 850W PSU

So so far, it will be fastest quad g.skill memory , corsair AX 850W, Intel Xeon E5-2603 4cores,1.8ghz. Probably z77 chipset mainboard, and asus has some nice automatic o/c on some boards. Maybe an Asus E5 board.
 
Aug 25, 2012
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Says somewhere that e5-2603 has "slow ram"? Anyway, I am going to do the research on my own. Chime in if there is any latency/low jitter experts

Peace Be With You.
 

harrkev

Senior member
May 10, 2004
659
0
71
Wow. It looks like one of your prime benchmarks would be audio -- now that we have something concrete, we can go somewhere.

Probably latency would be your biggest killer in audio apps. I would recommend, as a first pass, using ASIO4All audio drivers for your audio hardware. If that is not enough, you might also want to get a new sound card. Do not go to a computer store, go to a MUSIC store -- (like Guitar Center). Buy a shiny new PCIx audio card. It probably won't do 7.1 dolby or anything like that, but the audio will be clean, and the drivers should be optimized for latency.

As far as the "feeling" of snappiness, turn off all of the special visual effects in your OS. Do you really need menu bars to fade in or a semi-transparent window frame? Turn all of that crap off.

What you are referring to as "latency" is really just how fast your computer responds to events. Something happens (press a button, buffer becoming too empty or full on an audio interface, etc.) that needs to be attended to. How long before the computer actually responds to that event? That is where the latency comes in. Let's say the average is 20ms. How hight can that number go? Will it always be 18 to 22 ms? Will it eventually reach 100 ms? That does NOT depend on the hardware, and has NOTHING to do with the jitter of a clock. That number if ENTIRELY dependent upon software -- period. Now, part of the software will be the OS, and part of it will be drivers. There is nothing that can be really that the OS can do if you have a poorly-behaved driver. For that, my best advice is to keep your system clean, and load as little extra crap on there as possible.

Now, you are absolutely right about older systems being more responsive. That is because you really did not have the concept of a driver back then. The software was written for the hardware. Nothing really going on the background. The programmer controlled the entire system, and know exactly what was happening at every moment -- a completely different paradigm from right now where programs are expected to run on processors from two or three companies, dozens of motherboard manufacturers, dozens, of audio chipset manufacturers, multiple generations of OS, etc.

Good luck in your quest.
 

serpretetsky

Senior member
Jan 7, 2012
642
26
101
like other's, i'm not sure what you mean by "jitter", but i'll assume you just want a snappy, responsive, and consistent system.

cpu- Not sure why you chose a xeon cpu, i don't think there's any dpc latency difference there between xeon and regular. But it is more expensive. Also, i dont think they make z77 chipsets for your e5-2603? It's hard to recommend a cpu cause the only thing i see you have listed is HalfLife2. If that's all you need to play the newest pentium's are pretty fast (pentium g870 i think is the one)

memory- again, i dont think dpc latency really applies here. Memory will run at a specific frequency and will have specific timings, there's not much else to look at here. It sounds like you mostly care about gaming. I would read this
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6372/...333-to-ddr32400-on-ivy-bridge-igp-with-gskill

4GB like you want should be enough for most games, but with memory so cheap there's not much reason to not go to 8GB. Again, there's not really any "latency" penalty for going with more memory, unless you're overclocking your memory like crazy, or for some reason go with 8GB of crappier ram.

Motherboard- ZAP linked to an article about DPC latency of various motherboards. You should probably give that a read.

Video Card- microstutter can definitly be described as a form of jitter of frames, so if you want SLI or CROSSFIRE you should do some major research on microstutter on what the companies are doing to combat it. I think nvidia currently wins here. I usually just get a high performing single card. Again, i dont know your applications, so it's hard to recommend anything.

SSD- you mentioned you want a responsive file system and fast loading applications. Well, this is really limited by your storage more than anything else. Get a samsung 830 and call it a day.

Monitor- You seem to really enjoy smoothness and "real-timeness" (yes thats a word! atleast it is now!). You should really look into getting a fast refreshing and low latency monitor. CRT's will have the lowest latency, but there are a lot of very good LCD's too. If you get a monitor with a high refresh rate (85hz or 120hz, whatever) make sure you get a video card that can pump out those frames fast enough. Make sure you have a beefy enough cpu too!

Mouse- I can't comment on this one but i have heard pro gamers prefer running there mice at higher polling rates than the default of 125hz. You may want to look into this.
 
Aug 25, 2012
27
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"Microstuttering" seems to be another name for "jitter" yes. Timing jitter starts with the clock, which is accurate to some degree. Then many other clocks are again derived of it, and resolution less, and that goes in stages, and in buffers, and into the OS, where new clocks may again be derived, or tried fitted to the clocks as good as they can.

If you run a minimal windows, the microstuttering/jitter will also be minimal. And that is even present on one gpu alone. But one understands two gpus will have more of a problem with it.

So did anyone make any sensible software for measuring "microstuttering"? Then you will have an idea of framejitter. With jitter, it is meant variation in framerate, outputting the same data, or even frameloss, due to blocks or stalls in the system (usually small enough to be called "jitter").

Peace Be With you.
 

harrkev

Senior member
May 10, 2004
659
0
71
"Microstuttering" seems to be another name for "jitter" yes. Timing jitter starts with the clock, which is accurate to some degree. Then many other clocks are again derived of it, and resolution less, and that goes in stages, and in buffers, and into the OS, where new clocks may again be derived, or tried fitted to the clocks as good as they can.

If you run a minimal windows, the microstuttering/jitter will also be minimal. And that is even present on one gpu alone. But one understands two gpus will have more of a problem with it.

So did anyone make any sensible software for measuring "microstuttering"? Then you will have an idea of framejitter. With jitter, it is meant variation in framerate, outputting the same data, or even frameloss, due to blocks or stalls in the system (usually small enough to be called "jitter").

Peace Be With you.
PLEASE forget the term Jitter. It really has no impace on what you really want. The jitter of the system clock has NOTHING TO DO with what you are talking about. First of all, each peripheral will have its own clock. If you are talking about audio applications, your sound card (assuming an external sound card) will have its own clock to generate the 44.1 KHz and/or 48 KHz used for audio stuff. You can overclock your PCI interface without having audio coming out sounding like Donald Duck. Similarly, if you overclock your graphics card, your 60 Hz LCD display does not have to suddenly cope with 65 Hz or 70 Hz refresh rates.

The "microstuttering" that you are refering to has nothing to do with any clock, but is really caused by having two highly-complex GPUs trying to "fly in formation." and do everything at the same time. It is a system architecture issue and a driver issue, and has NOTHING to do with the quality of the crystal oscillators on the board.

Please trust me, they guy who works in the ASIC design field and commonly deals with pico-second timing. I am currently part of a team working hard to make an ASIC with a transistor count in the billions.
 
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