Low T, blown away

[KIAman]

10-19-2016 Edit:
I've been on 25mg of Clomid (half dose) for the past 3 weeks now and honestly, I don't feel a single bit of difference. I could be falling asleep faster (within 10 minutes rather than 1 hour) but that could just be a coincidence.

Could be too early to tell. I have a follow-up bloodtest to confirm if Clomid is actually doing anything or not in 3 more weeks then the endocrinologist can determine what is going on.


Original Post:

So I changed medical providers and got a new doctor. After dealing with long-term sleep issues and fatigue from not sleeping enough, I decided to ask the doctor to include a testosterone test in the lab work.

Well fast forward a few weeks and I am blown away that I have low T, extremely low. The range is supposed to be 250-900 and I score 243, actually there is a disclaimer on the test that values below 250 are inaccurate because of the bulk testing method.

I spoke to my doctor and she ordered more detailed testosterone tests along with a bunch of other endocrine related stuff.

With treatment, I might be able to sleep better, have more energy, have more sexual appetite AND put on muscle mass and get lean easier.

Have I been working out with a handicap (so to say) all this time? Do you think I'll see that type of benefits? Just having more energy I can see giving a boost to my workouts.

Edit: For the lazy who don't read beyond OP, here are the important stats

Age: 38
Height: 6 ft
Weight: 185, I never got a BF estimate but I think I'm roughly 16%
Exercise: 3 times a week for 2 hours each day, compound lifts with some accessory work, have been working out for 3 years now
Diet: High protein, moderate fat and carb diet, maintaining at 2400 Cal/day
Sleep: Anywhere from 4-7 hours a day depending on how many times I wake up
Don't drink, smoke, drugs, party, have a very well paying job, wife, 2 kids

Edit2: Posted the secondary lab results
https://imgur.com/EOEXSDq

 

[SP33Demon]

I think you may have it backwards. Your levels are probably low because of lack of sleep, not that T treatment will help you sleep.

A preliminary new study shows a week of sleep loss lowered testosterone levels by up to 15% in group of healthy young men.

http://www.webmd.com/men/news/20110603/sleep-loss-may-lower-testosterone

If you can fix the sleep issue your levels may go back to normal. What is the issue? Bed? Wife snoring? Also, how old are you? If over 40 then it's probably not as uncommon as you think. We even have some guys on the powerlifting team who are older and take Test gummies since they are around your range of Test.

 

[GasX]

Low T is just another way to get you on meds. There are entire clinics devoted to capitalizing on this trend.

 

[KIAman]

I made a typo, my value is actually 233. I'll be getting a more detailed test tomorrow.

SP33Demon, there were many other reasons why I chose to to do a T test, the obvious ones were sleep and fatigue related. The others aren't health related imo (like not being able to grow facial/body hair, low sex drive, etc). I just turned 38 and I felt this way for 10 years at least but I just ignored it because that's the type of person I am, I just adjust to how I am (for example, I've broken bones which I've simply ignored because I didn't feel like taking the time to go to the doctor).

Sleep deprivation can contribute up to 15% loss of T? Well, if I fixed a worst-case sleep scenario, my value will go to 270ish which is still below the low-threshold.

GasX, you are suggesting I should hold off on any treatment because this is a money grab? I've checked with my insurance and treatment is covered. Other than the risks of treatment, do you see other reasons why I shouldn't?

 

[edro]

The perfect drug is one that corrects people's insecurities.
What better trend than to test for and and increase manliness.

 

[Pantlegz]

I don't see how correcting a hormone deficiency is either a cash grab or preying on insecurities. That's similar to suggesting that correcting thyroid function is the same...

 

[ArchAngel777]

I have no idea how old you are, but the natural progression when we age is lowering test. Carrying extra body, having a crappy diet, etc... is the reason for the majority of people with low t. You can influence test results with more than just sleep. A heavy workout can send it shooting down lower until it recovers.

I remember reading in Starting Strength, or so I think it was that test levels drop after a heavy workout the next day, to rise again later. Basically, in a nutshell, test levels vary widely depending on when the test is taken, when you had your last workout, how hard the workout was, what you ate, etc...

In my opinion, low t is just a way to obtain legal drugs. That said, I don't mind if anyone is on it, and I am sure some people do need it. But I think that is rare. Doesn't matter what i think anyway, your body, your decision. Just remember, once you are on it, you may need to STAY on it, since your body will shutdowns it's natural production. This can also get expensive as health costs increase and deductibles increase... I would do everything possible before taking the stuff, personally.

 

[KIAman]

I have no idea how old you are, but the natural progression when we age is lowering test. Carrying extra body, having a crappy diet, etc... is the reason for the majority of people with low t. You can influence test results with more than just sleep. A heavy workout can send it shooting down lower until it recovers.

I remember reading in Starting Strength, or so I think it was that test levels drop after a heavy workout the next day, to rise again later. Basically, in a nutshell, test levels vary widely depending on when the test is taken, when you had your last workout, how hard the workout was, what you ate, etc...

In my opinion, low t is just a way to obtain legal drugs. That said, I don't mind if anyone is on it, and I am sure some people do need it. But I think that is rare. Doesn't matter what i think anyway, your body, your decision. Just remember, once you are on it, you may need to STAY on it, since your body will shutdowns it's natural production. This can also get expensive as health costs increase and deductibles increase... I would do everything possible before taking the stuff, personally.

So, just to be clear, you read somewhere that testosterone levels vary depending on food, health and especially exercise. It changes it enough to send it below the low threshold of 300? I've been doing a lot of "internet" research and it seems like T variability based on sleep, eating, exercise (lifestyle) is a few percentage points and doesn't look like it justifies a score of 233 especially at the age of 38.

According to WebMD, I already do 5 out of 6 recommended actions to help boost testosterone, the only one I lack is sleep (and after years of treating this condition through other methods, I have a nagging feeling it might be a symptom of low T after all).

What is it with you guys and the thought process of associating T treatment with steroid abuse? The point of therapy is to bring the levels to normal levels, while steroid abusers go way beyond the normal levels. T treatment is legal drugs? WTF?

 

[ArchAngel777]

What is it with you guys and the thought process of associating T treatment with steroid abuse? The point of therapy is to bring the levels to normal levels, while steroid abusers go way beyond the normal levels. T treatment is legal drugs? WTF?

I can see that you already have your mind made up. I am not sure what you were expecting to hear in this thread. FWIW, no one mentioned steroid abusers - you did. In fact, you presented a false dichotomy. Let's try to be a bit more reasonable?

That said, since your mind is already made up, there is no need to be upset by others who don't agree. It sounds like you tried everything else, so the drugs are the only solution. Only you can know this.

 

[cbrunny]

Isn't the internet fun? haha...

Personally, I'd talk to my doctor about a potential natural solution first. I'd go in detail about the 5 out of 6 things that webmd says boosts T - as good a place as any to start at least. If your doctor agrees that you're doing everything you can already, or there's no hope of recovery, for sure I'd follow the doctors advice. I'm not a doctor, and if they say take the T, take the T.

 

[KIAman]

I can see that you already have your mind made up. I am not sure what you were expecting to hear in this thread. FWIW, no one mentioned steroid abusers - you did. In fact, you presented a false dichotomy. Let's try to be a bit more reasonable?

That said, since your mind is already made up, there is no need to be upset by others who don't agree. It sounds like you tried everything else, so the drugs are the only solution. Only you can know this.

In my opinion, low t is just a way to obtain legal drugs.

I don't know what else that was supposed to imply other than steroids, did you mean cocaine? LOL.

And no, I haven't made my mind up. I just completed the follow up blood test that will do additional T testing along with a bunch of my other hormones, this will be the first time in my life I've ever had this type of hormone testing.

And yes, this is the internet but I've always found the H&F subforums pretty knowledgeable so far. I think the people who are knowledgeable are on vacation.

 

[Pantlegz]

Yea, the quality of information in H&F has gone downhill a bit lately. It's convenient how they skip over my question of how correcting this hormone is different than correcting thyroid hormone deficiencies. If you have any hormone that's outside of the 'normal' range it needs to be addresses. What's normal varies for everyone, and I'm sure you could argue normal ranges but I'd listen to a medical professional and try it out and see how it works for you. I know a couple guys in their late 30's and early 40's that say it's a night and day difference.

 

[ArchAngel777]

I don't know what else that was supposed to imply other than steroids, did you mean cocaine? LOL.

I am not sure what you find amusing. Anyhow, since you don't see know the the assumption you made, I'll point it out. You were correct that I did imply steroids are drugs of that nature. That is not the problem, but that you added 'abusers'. In other words, you assume that someone taking an illegal drug is an abuser of the drug. That is incorrect. Because you only see this in black and white, you have created only two possible scenarios. Those who are taking T therapy and those who illegally abuse steroids. Do you see the problem with this? Perhaps in your eyes those are the only two classes of people that exist, which, again, is your perspective.

Many people avoid illegal drugs, not because they fear the drug, but they fear what might be laced with it, or incorrect dosages. So while many people would love to take PEDs, they don't quite trust a black market source. Instead, obtaining a prescribed dosage is something they are looking for. That way, they know they are getting the real drug and the correct dosage and thus, less of a risk to their health. On the other hand, some people reject steroids because they believe they are unhealthy, period. I personally, don't believe that, but I also have no desire to take them.

Like I said, you have to decide if you want to PAY for the treatment when it comes down to it. Even though health insurance may cover a lot of it, typically there are out of pocket expenses and it seems like every year those expenses go up. Before the ACA, they went up, after the ACA, they went up. They just keep going up. So if you are going to take something that costs $, be sure you understand that once you start taking the stuff, you might have to take it the rest of your life as your body may not be able to start test production again if you decide to stop taking it.

Anyhow, to be clear, it doesn't look like you are open mined on this subject. If you are, it sure doesn't appear like it.

 

[ArchAngel777]

Yea, the quality of information in H&F has gone downhill a bit lately.

What a bunch of non-nonsensical rubbish. I bet you consider yourself the authority? Right... Well, this is hotly debated topic with intelligent people on both sides. I suppose, though, with your logic, the quality of the board is based on how much it agrees with own ideas? Pathetic.

Anyhow, I figure I'd include a useful link to rippetoe's forum. Maybe the OP will find something useful.

http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/mark-rippetoe-q-and-a/31065-testosterone-levels.html

 

[Pantlegz]

What a bunch of non-nonsensical rubbish. I bet you consider yourself the authority? Right... Well, this is hotly debated topic with intelligent people on both sides. I suppose, though, with your logic, the quality of the board is based on how much it agrees with own ideas? Pathetic.

Anyhow, I figure I'd include a useful link to rippetoe's forum. Maybe the OP will find something useful.

http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/mark-rippetoe-q-and-a/31065-testosterone-levels.html

How does what I said not make sense? You may disagree with it but it still makes perfect sense. I'm not sure what authority I've implied having but I read bullshit and call it out, based on the knowledge I have.

My question still hasn't been addressed. Testosterone is a hormone, if it's out of a normal range it needs to be corrected just like any other hormone, correct? Take what you're saying and apply it to lets say insulin, because that can be abused by strength athletes too. Can it be abused? Sure, but that could be said about anything.

And I'm not sure how a 4 year old forum post is better information than the OP could get from his doctor or other medical professionals, as I suggested.

Please, pick another forum to troll.

 

[ArchAngel777]

Please, pick another forum to troll.

Right back at you.

 

[Sixguns]

Going in for a test for this next week sometime. Over the last six months my hair is starting to disappear, weight gain, strength decreasing, always tired. Not sure what is up so into the doctor I go.

 

[vi edit]

Going in for a test for this next week sometime. Over the last six months my hair is starting to disappear, weight gain, strength decreasing, always tired. Not sure what is up so into the doctor I go.

Sounds like any new parent. Have a kid recently?

 

[edro]

I have no problem with someone with Low T getting treatment and correcting the problem.
I also don't have a problem with an aging man getting testosterone so he feels like his old self.
I do have a problem with the drug companies targeting male insecurities to push drugs.

I am sick of pharmaceutical advertising...

 

[ArchAngel777]

I have no problem with someone with Low T getting treatment and correcting the problem.
I also don't have a problem with an aging man getting testosterone so he feels like his old self.
I do have a problem with the drug companies targeting male insecurities to push drugs.

I am sick of pharmaceutical advertising...

Right on...

 

[KIAman]

I am not sure what you find amusing. Anyhow, since you don't see know the the assumption you made, I'll point it out. You were correct that I did imply steroids are drugs of that nature. That is not the problem, but that you added 'abusers'. In other words, you assume that someone taking an illegal drug is an abuser of the drug. That is incorrect. Because you only see this in black and white, you have created only two possible scenarios. Those who are taking T therapy and those who illegally abuse steroids. Do you see the problem with this? Perhaps in your eyes those are the only two classes of people that exist, which, again, is your perspective.

This is probably my ignorance but I did not realize there were people who do illegal steroids without abusing them. Are you saying those people are self medicating rather than using it for "gainz?" I read through the starting strength link you posted and most people say there must be reasons and symptoms leading you to treat low T, you shouldn't just ask for a test because of gainz. One post warned of ensuring to get additional tests (which all the ones he listed I did today) to get a more accurate picture. You can say I've made up my mind all you want but it won't make it true.

Yea, the quality of information in H&F has gone downhill a bit lately. It's convenient how they skip over my question of how correcting this hormone is different than correcting thyroid hormone deficiencies. If you have any hormone that's outside of the 'normal' range it needs to be addresses. What's normal varies for everyone, and I'm sure you could argue normal ranges but I'd listed to a medical professional and try it out and see how it works for you. I know a couple guys in their late 30's and early 40's that say it's a night and day difference.

I appreciate the response, I'm actually more curious about those guys you know, when they say "night and day" difference, did they mean in regards to their symptoms or energy levels or everything? Did they say anything about side effects?

Going in for a test for this next week sometime. Over the last six months my hair is starting to disappear, weight gain, strength decreasing, always tired. Not sure what is up so into the doctor I go.

Good luck, did you have sleep issues and find it easier to break/fracture bones? How old are you, if I may ask?

 

[ArchAngel777]

My friend and co-worker is on testosterone replacement therapy and he posted on these forums quite a bit in the past, even about this issue, I think. I'll ask him to post here, he might be able to give you some ideas as to how he felt different when he takes it. I think he was in the low 300 range. I'll talk to him.

I work with Lazarus, here is the thread he created here way back when... The thread starts with his process of looking into it, eventually with getting the test and follow-up test results. That said, I am not sure if he posts how much better he feels with it. He may chime in, in this thread.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2262913

 

[KIAman]

My friend and co-worker is on testosterone replacement therapy and he posted on these forums quite a bit in the past, even about this issue, I think. I'll ask him to post here, he might be able to give you some ideas as to how he felt different when he takes it. I think he was in the low 300 range. I'll talk to him.

I work with Lazarus, here is the thread he created here way back when... The thread starts with his process of looking into it, eventually with getting the test and follow-up test results. That said, I am not sure if he posts how much better he feels with it. He may chime in, in this thread.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2262913

Interesting. Besides my comment about watching porn, it looks like people responded with some good info. Also interesting his doctor felt he was too borderline while my doctor felt like it was an immediate issue. My doctor seemed knowledgeable and even breaking down the difference between gonadal (produced in the testes) reasons, nervous system reasons and external environment reasons why I might score low on T.

I also took my test early in the morning to take advantage of peak T levels. The test I took today included all of those he took and also other hormones as well just to be safe.

Read through that T-nation TRT article and interesting how they note that TrT is an art, I had no idea this was so "new" as legitimate treatment. They also state treatment should be based on symptoms rather than test results. This is the hard part for me. Like I said earlier, I'm extremely pain tolerant and patient (and lazy). I don't know if I'm supposed to feel this way or if it's abnormal, I've done a ton of sleep studies and remedies with doctor's instructions and none of them has worked. My fatigue, is this me getting old or is something wrong with me? My sex drive, wife KNOWS it's abnormal but I'm not sure if it is or not, there is a huge variance on what is considered "normal." Breaking bones... how often do people break bones to determine if it has become easier or not?!?! I just know I've broken them within the last 10 years.

Gah, frustrating.

 

[Lazarus52980]

Hi! My name is Lazarus and I have low testosterone.

For me, the impact is not obvious with the energy and libido because it feels "normal" now, but I feel it on days I don't take it. Your best bet is to work on heavy weightlifting to set yourself with the greatest amount of free (bioavailable) testosterone and help yourself along, but nothing wrong with getting supplemented if you're low like that. T is important.

 

[KIAman]

Hi! My name is Lazarus and I have low testosterone.

For me, the impact is not obvious with the energy and libido because it feels "normal" now, but I feel it on days I don't take it. Your best bet is to work on heavy weightlifting to set yourself with the greatest amount of free (bioavailable) testosterone and help yourself along, but nothing wrong with getting supplemented if you're low like that. T is important.

Hey Lazarus, welcome back from the dead, rofl. Ok stupid pun but you responded right after I posted. How do you know if you feel normal or not? That's the trick for me.

As to lifting, I do 3 times a week compound lifts, squats stalled at 285ish but all my other lifts keep going up. My bench recently has skyrocketed, I'm almost benching as much as I squat.