M-ATX good build to go?

[paper006]

Good day

I wanted to buy myself a whole new PC set, for gaming(3d) and watching movies. I wanted to build a small(er) PC (Micro-ATX), because so far I know you don't sacrifice something compared to a normal ATX. Or am I wrong? With the Mini-ITX you only have like 2 PCI slots and 2 RAM slots(max 16GB), thats why I don't want to go for a Mini-ITX.
My price range is around 1300Euros (1750$). I will be buying my parts in Germany. Mostly I use the price search enging, www.billiger.de. The shipping is often free or cheap in Germany, so I probably wouldn't buy my parts only from one vendor.
My brand preferences: Intel (more power efficient than AMD), Nvidia (3d vsison is better supported/developed than HD3D from ATI), WD (have better personal experience).
I wont be overclocking the PC in the beginning, only in 1 or 2 years time (when my PC can't run the games on high anymore). I'll be playing on 1920 x 1080, because thats the highest resolution on 3d monitors right now.
I'll be buying the PC in the beginning of December.
I have read some forum and reviews, but I can't make a decission. This is what I got so far:

CPU: Intel i5 4670K 196Euros (AMD CPUs have a to high TDP. Would you recommened to pay more for the i5 4770K, value for money?)

Motherboard: Asus Maximus VI Gene 159Euros (I don't know if the motherboard is worth the money. For me, I can always rely on Asus motherboards.)

GPU: MSI GTX 770 Lightning 313Euros (I would rather go for a single, than a Sli. I wanted to buy a Nvidia card, because I think Nvidia's 3d Vision is better than AMDs HD3D, better supported. The GTX 770 will be good for 3D gaming. I took the MSI Lightning design, because it is pretty quiet and has OC potential.)

RAM: Corsair Dominator 2x8GB CMP16GX3M2X 1866C9 183Euros (Is 16 GB and 1866MHz worth it, or is 8GB 1600MHz good enough?

PSU: Corsair GS700 80Euros (600-650W will probably be enough. The PSU must not be to loud.)

SSD: Samsung 840 Pro 256GB 193Euros (What I have read, the Pro series is better than the Evo. The Pro version, they say, has a better NAND, that lasts longer. 2x256GB is probably better than 1x500GB?)

HDD: Western Digital Black 2TB 123Euros (I trust WD more than Seagate. I still have a 500GB WD SATA HDD thats up and working for more than 8 years. The longest that one of my Seagate lasted was 3 years. 2x2TB are probably also better than one 4TB?)

Case: Don't know yet (The BitFenix Prodigy M, 78Euros, looks nice, but I don't know if the cooling works properly. Maybe water cooling could be the solution. The Xigmatek Aquila looks better, but is not released yet)

Cooling: Air or water cooling? (Maybe a water cooled PSU? Do I need a custom CPU cooler? Any suggestions?)

Audio: Asus Xonar DG 32Euros (Is an extra Sound card necessary? I like good quality music

Optical Drive: Asus Blu-Ray Burner BW16D1HT 80Euros


Subtotal: ±1437Euros (1930$)


Monitor: 27'' 120Hz
-Asus VG278HR 499Euros (Vision Kit included)
-BenQ XL2720Z (Available this month. The XL2720T 399Euros+116Euros Vision Kit=515Euros)


PS. Exchange rate 1Euro=1.34$

 

[Torn Mind]

You can have 1866 Mhz RAM, but you don't need to overpay like that.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...D=3938566&SID=
~$120 after entering a promo code.

PSU: Again, you can do better for that price. The Rosewill Fortress 650 is $102 after promo, and $87 after rebate+that aforementioned promo. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817182083

 

[mfenn]

The way you're denoting currency makes me think that you're not in the US. Can you update your post with the answers to the questions posed in the sticky, including the parts about where you're buying from?

 

[paper006]

You are right. I'm from Germany. Just wanted to make it easier for the people in US. The prices from US are relatively the same, compared to Germany (the cheapest in US will mostly be also the cheapest in Germany).
I changed my post like the stickies. Sorry!

 

[mfenn]

You are right. I'm from Germany. Just wanted to make it easier for the people in US. The prices from US are relatively the same, compared to Germany (the cheapest in US will mostly be also the cheapest in Germany).
I changed my post like the stickies. Sorry!

Aha, I figured. In trying to make it easier, you actually made it harder for us to help you. There are members from all over the world and we're pretty adept at hunting through sites in different countries. Thanks for updating with your location and budget in euros.

My comments:
- CPU: Good 196e
- Mobo: Too expensive for a single-GPU build. You can get the ASRock Z87M Pro4 for 87e
- GPU: Honestly kind of weak for a GPU that is meant to drive as close to 120 FPS as possible. I'd step the GPU up to the GTX 780 for 469e given your budget.
- RAM: 8GB is plenty for a current gaming machine and fast RAM has limited benefits for discrete GPU gaming. This Corsair DDR3 1600 kit is 60e
- PSU: Corsair GS PSUs are not bastions of quality and that price is kind of high. The Seasonic S12-II 620W is a good quality unit with plenty of power for 66e.
- SSD : A normal desktop workload won't wear out TLC NAND like the 840 EVO 250GB (160e) for a while. Even if you install a 50GB game every day, you won't run out of rated lifetime for 4.5 years. (250GB / 3 b/c * 1000 wr/c / 50 GB/day / 365 days/yr = 4.5 years).
- HDD : Actual statistics show that the failures rates of WD and Seagate drives are very similar. WD Blacks in particular aren't worth the money because they only feature an extended warranty over their Blue cousins. A Seagate 2TB is 80e.
- Case: There's lots of choices here, but I would check out the Corsair 350D for 90e
- HSF: For low noise, you will want an aftermarket cooler. The Arctic Cooling i30 will quieten down a stock-clocked chip nicely for 40e.
- Sound: If you like good quality music, step one is to go spend at least 200e on speakers and/or headphones. Step 2 is to buy a DAC and amp that sit outside the PC.
- ODD : Do you really need to burn Blu-Ray discs or just read them and burn DVDs? A BD reader and DVD burner costs about 63e.

 

[paper006]

RAM: Are 2x4gb better than a single 8gb module?

GPU: Is 630W enough, altough I might go for the GTX780?

Cooling: Is it fine to use only the built in fans or should I buy extra cooling stuff?

Does somebody have experience with 27'' 3d monitors. My decision was one of these two:
-Asus VG278HR 499Euros (Vision Kit included)
-BenQ XL2720Z (Available this month. The XL2720T 399Euros+116Euros Vision Kit=515Euros)

Or is there some other screens you would recommend?


Thanks for the help.

 

[aigomorla]

seeing how ur not using dual GPU's.
Nor are u adding on any additional cards..

Do you intend to SLI or Xfire? Thats basically the main question...

M-ATX when compared to ITX is still too large..

Go ITX...
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813132028
pair that board with your CPU...
That ITX board is about equal in quality to a full ATX board due to its special VRMS.

the board maybe a little more expensive, but thats because your paying for it in the VRMS.
So the board isnt expensive for no reason... it has a very good reason why its expensive.


ASUS monitors BLOW... i have 2 of them.
They are great gaming monitors because of there speed, also good bios tweak monitors because u never miss the (press delete to enter system bios) message.
However color wise, horrible... my SPVA's i use for documents will trash it left and right in color reproduction and clearity.
However my SPVA's are SLOWWWWWWWWWWWW and i always miss the bios notice, so im blindy mashing delete to get into bios.

If ur looking for a new monitor, i would try those 27" inch korean ones which have 1440p.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7415/monoprice-ipsglass-panel-pro-27-lcd-monitor

 

[paper006]

I will probably not go for sli.
Firstly, if I go for a GTX780, I wouldn't need an extra card for the next 4 years. Secondly the power consumption with 2 cards are pretty high, and i should then also buy a 1000W PSU.

What will the advantages be for an ITX? What case will go best with an ITX?
In Germany, only the Asus Z87I-Pro is available.

I am looking for a 27'' 3d screen.

 

[mfenn]

M-ATX when compared to ITX is still too large..

Go ITX...
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813132028
pair that board with your CPU...
That ITX board is about equal in quality to a full ATX board due to its special VRMS.

the board maybe a little more expensive, but thats because your paying for it in the VRMS.
So the board isnt expensive for no reason... it has a very good reason why its expensive.

I don't really see the point in getting a super expensive tweakers' board when it sounds like the OP will be doing a mild/moderate overclock to add some extra life to the system.

 

[mfenn]

RAM: Are 2x4gb better than a single 8gb module?

For performance, yes 2 kits lets you run in dual-channel mode and get double the memory bandwidth.

GPU: Is 630W enough, altough I might go for the GTX780?

Yes, the S12-II 620W is plenty for a GTX 780.

Cooling: Is it fine to use only the built in fans or should I buy extra cooling stuff?

The fans that come with a case like the 350D are fine for a single-GPU setup.

Does somebody have experience with 27'' 3d monitors. My decision was one of these two:
-Asus VG278HR 499Euros (Vision Kit included)
-BenQ XL2720Z (Available this month. The XL2720T 399Euros+116Euros Vision Kit=515Euros)

Or is there some other screens you would recommend?

I don't have any personal experience with 27" 120Hz+ monitors. Paging lehtv...

Personally, I would go with a 2560x1440 60Hz IPS, but that's just me.

 

[paper006]

Could I also go for M-ITX or is M-ATX a better choice?

 

[aigomorla]

I will probably not go for sli.
Firstly, if I go for a GTX780, I wouldn't need an extra card for the next 4 years. Secondly the power consumption with 2 cards are pretty high, and i should then also buy a 1000W PSU.

What will the advantages be for an ITX? What case will go best with an ITX?
In Germany, only the Asus Z87I-Pro is available.

I am looking for a 27'' 3d screen.

There are a lot of advantages in ITX over MATX.
The main thing is case size...
MATX cases are still quite large.
Infact most of the MATX cases u think are actually ITX cases and not MATX cases.
MATX is feel is gonna die out in form factor soon because vendors cant seem to get MATX done correctly and the shift into ITX has been more seen as ITX has a much more flexible footprint overall.

There are a lot of cases for ITX...
Fractle Node can take a long gpu and a itx board but u will lose out on 3 hdd cages out of 6.

The silverstone FT03 mini is a awesome case which is AIO friendly on top.
A bit pricey, but its a beautiful case.

CM130 is also a great itx case, cheap, and can handle a AIO cooler.
Make sure its the 130... the 120 can not take an AIO, and the 110 can not handle a long GPU.

have you ever tried playing in 3d before?
If u havent i recommend u try, or goto a store and check it out and see if u can stay on it longer then 30min.
Some people get a bad case of vertigo, others get bad eye strain... see if that applies to you b4 u go off buying a 3d monitor over a 1440p when ur using a 780GTX.

I don't really see the point in getting a super expensive tweakers' board when it sounds like the OP will be doing a mild/moderate overclock to add some extra life to the system.

actually its mostly in the durability on the board overall.

When the board is stressed, especially on a itx with a small number of vrms with a overclocking quadcore, the board VRMS will pop.
(Lots and Lots of MSI scares if u recall mfenn.)

This asus will NOT pop a VRM unless ur very unlucky... infact this ASUS will outlast all the other ITX boards combined even supermicros due to how well beef'd up the board is in durability.
Hence the extended price... u actually do pay for more, and not just the name on this board....

Your seriously not paying for the name "ASUS".. you are actually paying for real hardware on the markup price.
You get a full sized VRM with beefy sink.
You also get a full 6 x SATA ports on an ITX.
Count those plentiful pwm fan headers on top!
Its one of the few itx boards i know which has a 8pin AUX2 plug instead of a 4pin!

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/motherboards/2013/08/29/asus-z87i-pro-review/1

In an ITX setting, you want durable parts, because the case can get quite cramped, and eat life away at your components if they get too hot.

 

[paper006]

Would you recommened 16 GB G.Skill 1866MHz CL10 (120Euros) or 8GB G.Skill 2400MHz CL9 (100Euros)?

 

[aigomorla]

Would you recommened 16 GB G.Skill 1866MHz CL10 (120Euros) or 8GB G.Skill 2400MHz CL9 (100Euros)?

dont be picky on ram...

if u have a k cpu, u will do multi overclocking so mem speed being able to run fast is kinda pointless.

Personally i have great luck with cosairs budget line as the mem speed difference is almost unnoticeable in gaming or everyday activities.

My advice on a unlocked cpu is get whatever is on sale, and is cheapest from a reputable / trusted vendor that runs on 1.5V.

You will want 2 x 8GB sticks tho... so find whatever is on sale, and runs on 1.5volts.


Here is a simular build done by linus from NCIX.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWAeZYB9DGg

EDIT: lol.. ft03 will not handle a GTX780... cross that case out please...
but u see how a ITX build is from the video.

The CM130 maybe a better itx case for you.... possibly the smallest u can get with that gpu.

Should take a 780GTX... and a 650W PSU.

The Node 304 will also be a more flexible case for you... although a bit larger.

its very tight fit tho.. mostly due to the front location of PSU.

The Bitfinix Prodigy is a big ITX case, but comes in a lot of colors, lots of options are standard as well, great design in keeping the case cool, and if you like the looks on it, that's another possibly.

no problems there, no tight spots, LOTS of open room for things to breathe, but it is the largest case out of them all.
Id even call it a MATX case size honestly... but its ITX Only.
In watercooling terms tho, we call it the Mountain Mods Hori Mini...
As its a mini version of MM's Hori.

 

[paper006]

I heard that the Prodigy M has bad cooling. Many people wrote negative comments when anandtech reviewed the case. Their comments are actually valid, because theres no good air stream in the case. M is the upgrade from the original Prodigy case.

The Xigmatek Aquila looks nice to me, but is not available yet.

 

[aigomorla]

not too sure about the M, but the original prodigy's if u dont mind the size is the easiest itx case...

its extremely watercooling friendly too, if u decide to go down that route.

 

[mfenn]

actually its mostly in the durability on the board overall.

When the board is stressed, especially on a itx with a small number of vrms with a overclocking quadcore, the board VRMS will pop.
(Lots and Lots of MSI scares if u recall mfenn.)

This asus will NOT pop a VRM unless ur very unlucky... infact this ASUS will outlast all the other ITX boards combined even supermicros due to how well beef'd up the board is in durability.
Hence the extended price... u actually do pay for more, and not just the name on this board....

That might matter if you're trying to push some monster OC, but I just don't see that in the OP (please correct me if I have missed something). It's more likely IMHO that he's going to go for a relatively safe stock/low voltage OC which doesn't put much stress at all on the power delivery circuitry.

 

[paper006]

Will the both the GTX780(or GTX770) and the soundcard even fit on an ITX board? The ITX boards I have seen only have 2 PCIe slots. The graphiccard will probably take up all the space, or not?

 

[aigomorla]

Will the both the GTX780(or GTX770) and the soundcard even fit on an ITX board? The ITX boards I have seen only have 2 PCIe slots. The graphiccard will probably take up all the space, or not?

the GPU yes... the sound card no...

Your on onboard sound for sound card..

That might matter if you're trying to push some monster OC, but I just don't see that in the OP (please correct me if I have missed something). It's more likely IMHO that he's going to go for a relatively safe stock/low voltage OC which doesn't put much stress at all on the power delivery circuitry.

His prior pick was the Gene II.
I was also picking on class of hardware.

I am not the type to go push an alternative which is lower in quality unless the OP specifically asks for a cheaper alternative.

And your possibly right, he may not push his cpu hard, however i still put my reputation on that board outlasting anything the OP intends to do with it, unless he runs into a bad case of bad luck.

 

[mfenn]

Will the both the GTX780(or GTX770) and the soundcard even fit on an ITX board? The ITX boards I have seen only have 2 PCIe slots. The graphiccard will probably take up all the space, or not?

Can you link to an ITX board with two slots? I'm pretty sure they only ever have one. And yes, a big graphics card will preclude an additional sound card. But that's OK because you are going with an outboard DAC right?

 

[mfenn]

His prior pick was the Gene II.
I was also picking on class of hardware.

I am not the type to go push an alternative which is lower in quality unless the OP specifically asks for a cheaper alternative.

I don't really agree with this way of thinking. Motherboards are the #1 place that people overspend, so using that as a barometer just leads to inefficient builds.

 

[aigomorla]

I don't really agree with this way of thinking. Motherboards are the #1 place that people overspend, so using that as a barometer just leads to inefficient builds.

780GTX were never included in the definition of an efficient build.

if it was efficient, it would be a 770GTX...
MATX are also not included int he definition of an efficient build due to size constraints.

I think the OP already considered the price tag on the system, and had it set...

Mfenn i think its down to the methodology on how we build PC's. Here's how things ran in my head when picking his parts.
When i see a top dog GPU, i assume, the OP has already threw out most of the budget.
When i see him adding Z chipsets, and a 4670K cpu, i also assume he's thrown budget out the window.
When i see people pick out ROG ASUS boards... well, its a very big bling to me that they dont care about a economically priced motherboard.
Otherwise you wouldnt pick a Maxmius/Rampage... you would get a P87K(whatever follows)-Deluxe version of the ASUS board or an ASRock board.
Not a Republic of Gamer branded one.

Now OP... if my thinking was off... then please go with Mfenn's suggested parts on a more balanced one.

 

[Charlie98]

The CM130 maybe a better itx case for you.... possibly the smallest u can get with that gpu.

Should take a 780GTX... and a 650W PSU.

I looked at that case today when I was at MicroCenter... that is a really, really cool concept. I may just have to try an ITX build next time...

 

[mfenn]

780GTX were never included in the definition of an efficient build.

if it was efficient, it would be a 770GTX...
MATX are also not included int he definition of an efficient build due to size constraints.

I think the OP already considered the price tag on the system, and had it set...

Mfenn i think its down to the methodology on how we build PC's. Here's how things ran in my head when picking his parts.
When i see a top dog GPU, i assume, the OP has already threw out most of the budget.
When i see him adding Z chipsets, and a 4670K cpu, i also assume he's thrown budget out the window.
When i see people pick out ROG ASUS boards... well, its a very big bling to me that they dont care about a economically priced motherboard.
Otherwise you wouldnt pick a Maxmius/Rampage... you would get a P87K(whatever follows)-Deluxe version of the ASUS board or an ASRock board.
Not a Republic of Gamer branded one.

Now OP... if my thinking was off... then please go with Mfenn's suggested parts on a more balanced one.

You may very well be right as to the OP's intent, but I am always going to try to show the most cost effective path. Sometimes people know that a less expensive part is there and reject it, but sometimes they had know idea that the less expensive part was a viable choice. If I don't point it out and show my reasoning, somebody might spend a lot more money than they really wanted to.

 

[paper006]

Can you link to an ITX board with two slots? I'm pretty sure they only ever have one. And yes, a big graphics card will preclude an additional sound card. But that's OK because you are going with an outboard DAC right?

I maybe thaught that one can use a mini PCIe slot some how. On the Asus Website for the VI Impact stands the following info:

• Expansion Slots1 x PCIe 3.0/2.0 x16
  1 x mini-PCIe 2.0 x1 *1