M.I.T. molecular biologist makes elaborate case that Covid-19 was probably developed at and leaked from the Wuhan lab

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sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
96,072
15,744
126
I have seen protective suits worn in laboratories. What I have seen has no resemblance to perfection. There is no perfectly safe laboratory structure or protocol. They have 4 levels of safety in virology labs. Level 4 > Level 3, etc. Don't kid yourself that Level 4 if scrupulously followed is utterly safe. Chernobyl was an unmitigated disaster. Fukushima was designed to withstand the worst reasonably anticipated seismic event. But one came along quite a bit bigger.
Fukushima withstood the seismic event, it just was not designed to handle tsunami.

Chernobyl is human mistake. There is no helping that.
 
Dec 10, 2005
24,304
7,165
136
I have seen protective suits worn in laboratories. What I have seen has no resemblance to perfection. There is no perfectly safe laboratory structure or protocol. They have 4 levels of safety in virology labs. Level 4 > Level 3, etc. Don't kid yourself that Level 4 if scrupulously followed is utterly safe. Chernobyl was an unmitigated disaster. Fukushima was designed to withstand the worst reasonably anticipated seismic event. But one came along quite a bit bigger.
Fukushima did fine in the seismic event. It was the tsunami that was the issue.

As for the lab leak stuff - lab safety is important, but it's really a fundamental distraction from the more realistic origin of the virus and a way to distract the American public from the unmitigated disaster that was the Trump Administration's response to the whole affair.

Some more links for fun reading: https://annualreviews.org/deliver/f...022-013037/annurev-virology-093022-013037.pdf (A recent, 2024 review on the evidence - more recent than the 2022 PNAS article you linked)
 
Reactions: dank69

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,789
8,285
136
Fukushima withstood the seismic event, it just was not designed to handle tsunami.

Chernobyl is human mistake. There is no helping that.
Obviously tsunami was always possible. Fukushima's was bigger than the worst they thought might happen.

I believe there were also design failures involved in the Chernobyl disaster.

The Chernobyl disaster in 1986 was caused by a combination of design flaws and human error:
  • Reactor design
    The RBMK reactor at Chernobyl was similar to the world's first reactor, which was built in 1942 and used graphite as both a moderator and coolant. The Chernobyl reactor used water as a neutron absorber instead of a moderator, which made it more unstable when it lost cooling water. The reactor also had a "positive void coefficient," which meant that the nuclear chain reaction and power output would increase if it lost cooling water.
  • Human error
    Technicians at the reactor shut down the power-regulating and emergency safety systems, and removed control rods from the core while the reactor was running at low power. They also reduced the reactor's power level too quickly, which caused a buildup of fission byproducts that poisoned the reaction. The operators tried to compensate by removing most of the control rods, but the reactor was still unstable at its low operating level.


    World Nuclear Association

    Chernobyl Accident 1986 - World Nuclear Association
    The design characteristics of the reactor were such that substantial damage to even three or four fuel assemblies would – and did – result in the destruction of the reactor. The overpressure caused the 1000 t cover plate of the reactor to become partially detached, rupturing the fuel channels and jamming all the control rods, which by that time were only halfway down. Intense steam generation then spread throughout the whole core (fed by water dumped into the core due to the rupture of the emergency cooling circuit) causing a steam explosion and releasing fission products to the atmosphere.

    energyeducation.ca

    RBMK - Energy Education
    The RBMK reactor's water wasn't a moderator (the graphite was) it was a neutron absorber. The lack of water meant more neutrons were there to make nuclear reactions, which is how things got so out of control!

    Human Factors 101

    Chernobyl: The drama - Human Factors 101
    Jul 20, 2019 — Stop for a (safety) moment. ... Besides the behaviours of front-line staff, human factors can also refer to flawed design, misplaced priorities and other wider organisational issues. ... What human factors influenced the behaviours of the operators in the control room? ... Does your organisation impose artificial deadlines that may lead to corner-cutting or shortcuts, in order to meet targets? Investigations sometimes conclude that an incident is the result of 'human error' and blame a few individuals. ... The design features of the RBMK nuclear reactors were known elsewhere, but not communicated to the personnel at Chernobyl.

    PBS

    Chernobyl | Nuclear Reaction | FRONTLINE - PBS
    When the experimenters finally started, they felt pressed to make up for lost time, so they reduced the reactor's power level too rapidly. That mistake caused a rapid buildup of neutron-absorbing fission by products in the reactor core, which poisoned the reaction. To compensate, the operators withdrew a majority of the reactor's control rods, but even with the rods withdrawn, they were unable to increase the power level to more than 30 megawatts, a low level of operation at which the reactor's instability potential is at its worst and that the Chernobyl plant's own safety rules forbade.

    Nuclear Energy Institute

    Chernobyl Accident and Its Consequences
    May 1, 2019 — The reactors were highly unstable at low power, due to control rod design and “positive void coefficient,” factors that accelerated the nuclear chain reaction and power output if the reactors lost cooling water. These factors all contributed to an uncontrollable power surge that led to Chernobyl 4's destruction. The power surge caused a sudden increase in heat, which ruptured some of the pressure tubes containing fuel.

    American Nuclear Society

    A reactor physicist explains Chernobyl
    Apr 28, 2022 — In detailing some of the RBMK's flaws, Perfetti noted that the reactor did not have a containment structure. Another flaw was that the reactor was cooled by water but moderated by graphite, making it over-moderated and giving it a positive void coefficient. “This is not a safe design feature,” he said, adding that reactors in the United States are not allowed to have a positive void coefficient. Perfetti said that because of the safety design features and containment structures that are required for U.S. reactors, a Chernobyl-like accident is not possible in the United States.

    britannica.com

    Chernobyl disaster | Causes, Effects, Deaths, Videos, Location, & Facts
    Apr 29, 2024 — The Chernobyl disaster occurred when technicians at nuclear reactor Unit 4 attempted a poorly designed experiment. They shut down the reactor's power-regulating system and its emergency safety systems, and they removed control rods from its core while allowing the reactor to run at 7 percent power.

    Los Angeles Times

    Chernobyl Design Flaws Made Accident Worse, Soviet Report ...
    Aug 23, 1986 — In its basic concept, the Chernobyl reactor resembles the world's first reactor--an “atomic pile,” it was called then--of graphite and uranium built under a University of Chicago stadium in 1942, at the start of the Manhattan Project, the program that developed the first atomic bomb. It differs radically from most nuclear power plants in the West, which use water as both the moderator and coolant. This difference accounts for the Chernobyl design's tendency to race out of control when cooling water is lost or blocked by steam bubbles. Normally, cooling water absorbs some of the neutrons released by fission.

Other design flaws included the reactor's lack of containment structure and the fact that design features were known elsewhere but not communicated to Chernobyl personnel.
 
Last edited:

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,534
12,656
146
As for the lab leak stuff - lab safety is important, but it's really a fundamental distraction from the more realistic origin of the virus and a way to distract the American public from the unmitigated disaster that was the Trump Administration's response to the whole affair.
Pretty confident we can walk and chew gum at the same time.
 
Dec 10, 2005
24,304
7,165
136
Pretty confident we can walk and chew gum at the same time.
No, I don't think the American public can do that when issues are closely related and when there is a dedicated group using it to obfuscate the prior administration's role in the disaster of a response.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
69,446
27,703
136
Obviously tsunami was always possible. Fukushima's was bigger than the worst they thought might happen.

I believe there were also design failures involved in the Chernobyl disaster.

The Chernobyl disaster in 1986 was caused by a combination of design flaws and human error:
  • Reactor design
    The RBMK reactor at Chernobyl was similar to the world's first reactor, which was built in 1942 and used graphite as both a moderator and coolant. The Chernobyl reactor used water as a neutron absorber instead of a moderator, which made it more unstable when it lost cooling water. The reactor also had a "positive void coefficient," which meant that the nuclear chain reaction and power output would increase if it lost cooling water.
  • Human error
    Technicians at the reactor shut down the power-regulating and emergency safety systems, and removed control rods from the core while the reactor was running at low power. They also reduced the reactor's power level too quickly, which caused a buildup of fission byproducts that poisoned the reaction. The operators tried to compensate by removing most of the control rods, but the reactor was still unstable at its low operating level.

    View attachment 100525
    World Nuclear Association

    Chernobyl Accident 1986 - World Nuclear Association
    The design characteristics of the reactor were such that substantial damage to even three or four fuel assemblies would – and did – result in the destruction of the reactor. The overpressure caused the 1000 t cover plate of the reactor to become partially detached, rupturing the fuel channels and jamming all the control rods, which by that time were only halfway down. Intense steam generation then spread throughout the whole core (fed by water dumped into the core due to the rupture of the emergency cooling circuit) causing a steam explosion and releasing fission products to the atmosphere.
    View attachment 100522
    energyeducation.ca

    RBMK - Energy Education
    The RBMK reactor's water wasn't a moderator (the graphite was) it was a neutron absorber. The lack of water meant more neutrons were there to make nuclear reactions, which is how things got so out of control!
    View attachment 100527
    Human Factors 101

    Chernobyl: The drama - Human Factors 101
    Jul 20, 2019 — Stop for a (safety) moment. ... Besides the behaviours of front-line staff, human factors can also refer to flawed design, misplaced priorities and other wider organisational issues. ... What human factors influenced the behaviours of the operators in the control room? ... Does your organisation impose artificial deadlines that may lead to corner-cutting or shortcuts, in order to meet targets? Investigations sometimes conclude that an incident is the result of 'human error' and blame a few individuals. ... The design features of the RBMK nuclear reactors were known elsewhere, but not communicated to the personnel at Chernobyl.
    View attachment 100523
    PBS

    Chernobyl | Nuclear Reaction | FRONTLINE - PBS
    When the experimenters finally started, they felt pressed to make up for lost time, so they reduced the reactor's power level too rapidly. That mistake caused a rapid buildup of neutron-absorbing fission by products in the reactor core, which poisoned the reaction. To compensate, the operators withdrew a majority of the reactor's control rods, but even with the rods withdrawn, they were unable to increase the power level to more than 30 megawatts, a low level of operation at which the reactor's instability potential is at its worst and that the Chernobyl plant's own safety rules forbade.

    Nuclear Energy Institute

    Chernobyl Accident and Its Consequences
    May 1, 2019 — The reactors were highly unstable at low power, due to control rod design and “positive void coefficient,” factors that accelerated the nuclear chain reaction and power output if the reactors lost cooling water. These factors all contributed to an uncontrollable power surge that led to Chernobyl 4's destruction. The power surge caused a sudden increase in heat, which ruptured some of the pressure tubes containing fuel.
    View attachment 100526
    American Nuclear Society

    A reactor physicist explains Chernobyl
    Apr 28, 2022 — In detailing some of the RBMK's flaws, Perfetti noted that the reactor did not have a containment structure. Another flaw was that the reactor was cooled by water but moderated by graphite, making it over-moderated and giving it a positive void coefficient. “This is not a safe design feature,” he said, adding that reactors in the United States are not allowed to have a positive void coefficient. Perfetti said that because of the safety design features and containment structures that are required for U.S. reactors, a Chernobyl-like accident is not possible in the United States.
    View attachment 100528
    britannica.com

    Chernobyl disaster | Causes, Effects, Deaths, Videos, Location, & Facts
    Apr 29, 2024 — The Chernobyl disaster occurred when technicians at nuclear reactor Unit 4 attempted a poorly designed experiment. They shut down the reactor's power-regulating system and its emergency safety systems, and they removed control rods from its core while allowing the reactor to run at 7 percent power.
    View attachment 100524
    Los Angeles Times

    Chernobyl Design Flaws Made Accident Worse, Soviet Report ...
    Aug 23, 1986 — In its basic concept, the Chernobyl reactor resembles the world's first reactor--an “atomic pile,” it was called then--of graphite and uranium built under a University of Chicago stadium in 1942, at the start of the Manhattan Project, the program that developed the first atomic bomb. It differs radically from most nuclear power plants in the West, which use water as both the moderator and coolant. This difference accounts for the Chernobyl design's tendency to race out of control when cooling water is lost or blocked by steam bubbles. Normally, cooling water absorbs some of the neutrons released by fission.
Other design flaws included the reactor's lack of containment structure and the fact that design features were known elsewhere but not communicated to Chernobyl personnel.
The choice to build a graphite reactor was not a design flaw. The Soviets had a policy that all production facilities must be dual use. From truck plants to nuclear reactors, a facility had to support civilian and military needs. Graphite reactors provide power but can also be used to produce plutonium for weapons.
 
Reactions: Brainonska511

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,416
293
126
Wasn't the Fukushima thing caused by emergency backup generators that could not be connected to the mains because nobody thought to check the interfaces?
 
May 11, 2008
20,000
1,282
126
Factory farms don't breed trans-species strains because the animals are isolated from other species and the factory farms are isolated from each other as much as possible. The wet markets cram everything together. The lesson of trans-species diseases is birds, pigs, and humans: pick two. Putting all three together and diseases jump.
Indeed. It is well known that in nature, viruses can jump when having a for the situation proper mutation, from species to species. Everywhere, where humans live in close proximity to mammals, virus jumps are possible. The domesticated pig is a prime example , like all domesticated animals , like for example cows and chickens. Dogs, and cats but there are many more. SARS-CoV2 is special because of the ACE-2 receptor. It seems all mammals posses such a receptor. But perhaps on different cells, making for different infection behavior of the cells of the infected host.

The influenza virus is known for being a cross species virus because of the close proximity humans and (domesticated animals) live together.
Which is one of the reasons we have so much medicines for domesticated animals and pets.

And the cells with ACE-2 receptors in a body like for example a human body, can higly likely differ from person to person. If that is the case, it perfectly explains next to comorbidity as added negative variable why some people are totally not harmed by the virus and others end up bed ridden. Proof for that perhaps can be is that with some people, nasal tests and saliva test seem to do nothing , no SARS-CoV2 but the intestines may be riddled with the SARS-CoV2. Which is known to occur by research since end of 2020. And that, makes kind of an embarrasing case for all the corona testing that happened for example in the Netherlands... And costed huge amounts of euros, like multinumber billions...
Just thrown away...
So, people ended up labeled as corona negative but may still have carried the virus and shed it too.
For example through the lavatory...
Talking about cashing in by abusing the good will of people during a pandemic situation. A true evil crime.

When it comes to consuming meat, i am happy to read on university pages that artifically grown meat is well on its way to become a product. Students with a positive view of the world carry the hope and the faith now !
So all farmers may end up as meat producer still, but without us having to kill animals and to keep such al large stock which can be dangerous, because you know statistics...
Farmers would be wise to knowledge up, there will always be farming. But there is really no need to eat like 1kg of meat each day for the average human being.
Humans need to change their diet. Humans are supposed to be kind of indestructable like animals when it comes to disease but we have too much unhealthy lifestyles or we are stressed all the time by people with unhealthy lifestyles.

As a sidenote :
So, the intelligent people who are smart because of the love for life and the desire for harmony have all the solutions ready. But the narcistic power hungry ones have united and become a real problem, almost like sleeping cells in a political thriller or a biblical story.
It has always been like this. What makes a person evil ?
Certainly, the decision that sleep is not needed may be very well be one of the big variables. Sleep is important, for the brain to restore and repair. Glia cells do a lot more than most people think , like working in tandem with the immune system...
And of course during sleep consolidation of memories and creating association pointers. Which is why everything with a brain gets smarter through experience : By gathering information and testing the validity.

As extra addition :
As is written and told many times : "Love thyself for one can love another". Love your cute little cells should be the message. Or you will get a body wide mutiny : We want another captain at the helm !
Perhaps another reason besides Toxoplasma Gondii and huge amounts of immune system surpressing stress, why some people end up schizophrenic. But that is a bit simply put of course, mental diseases are awful diseases but i am sure the first culprit are multiple pathogens and the second culprit is the surpressing of the immune system because of prolonged constant stress and the resulting high cortisol levels.
Everything wants to have a home and food and everything is a home and food.

Last addition :
And perhaps, there is a part of the brain that actually as a neural network performs antigen testing and produce outcome that is by chemical messages translated to help to create antibodies by the adaptive immune system and help speed up recovery.
That would make much more sense than a random number antibody generator in the bonemarrow and hope for the best. But that is just an assumption on my side.
This system would be setup highly redundant for obvious reasons...
Our DNA will perhaps reveal one day...
 
Last edited:
May 11, 2008
20,000
1,282
126
As addition to post #58 , why perhaps some people have so much issues with the SARS-CoV2 and some do not.
And the cells with ACE-2 receptors in a body like for example a human body, can higly likely differ from person to person.

Perhaps with some people, comparing individual humans with each other the ACE-2 receptor may have a different function, and be swapped with another receptor.
But then, then the signaling molecules and the receptors should both be swapped simultaneously, by simultaneously happening DNA changes.

or

A bit altered gene, or piece of DNA that codes for a slightly different form of ACE-2 receptor.
Either the messenger protein or messenger molecule (like neurotransmitters for example) should also have the same altered structure to be able to still fit into the receptor or perhaps the receptor has a bit more leniency, being more tolerant.

But this all is just an assumption. I am not an expert, it is just a hobby.


For general information see this article from nature about cell signaling :
Small excerpt from the text :
"
Cell Signaling

In order to respond to changes in their immediate environment, cells must be able to receive and process signals that originate outside their borders. Individual cells often receive many signals simultaneously, and they then integrate the information they receive into a unified action plan. But cells aren't just targets. They also send out messages to other cells both near and far.
What Kind of Signals Do Cells Receive?
Most cell signals are chemical in nature. For example, prokaryotic organisms have sensors that detect nutrients and help them navigate toward food sources. In multicellular organisms, growth factors, hormones, neurotransmitters, and extracellular matrix components are some of the many types of chemical signals cells use. These substances can exert their effects locally, or they might travel over long distances. For instance, neurotransmitters are a class of short-range signaling molecules that travel across the tiny spaces between adjacent neurons or between neurons and muscle cells. Other signaling molecules must move much farther to reach their targets. One example is follicle-stimulating hormone, which travels from the mammalian brain to the ovary, where it triggers egg release.
Some cells also respond to mechanical stimuli. For example, sensory cells in the skin respond to the pressure of touch, whereas similar cells in the ear react to the movement of sound waves. In addition, specialized cells in the human vascular system detect changes in blood pressure — information that the body uses to maintain a consistent cardiac load.
How Do Cells Recognize Signals?
Cells have proteins called receptors that bind to signaling molecules and initiate a physiological response. Different receptors are specific for different molecules. Dopamine receptors bind dopamine, insulin receptors bind insulin, nerve growth factor receptors bind nerve growth factor, and so on. In fact, there are hundreds of receptor types found in cells, and varying cell types have different populations of receptors. Receptors can also respond directly to light or pressure, which makes cells sensitive to events in the atmosphere.
Receptors are generally transmembrane proteins, which bind to signaling molecules outside the cell and subsequently transmit the signal through a sequence of molecular switches to internal signaling pathways.
"
 
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