M1 Garand vs Mosin Nagant

[alkemyst]

The Mosin-Nagant was in service from 1891 to 1998.

Also the 7.62x57R is more equivalent to a .30-06 (M1 Garand) than the .308 of the M1 Carbine...

 

[Cable God]

Guys keep throwing around terms as always..... M1's today, made by Springfield are NOT .30/06. They are 7.62 NATO, or .308 Winchester.

The M1 of old, IS a .30/06 in caliber though.

Big difference when you try to chamber and fire a .30/06 round in a .308 gun.

Throwing it around that loosely will SURELY get someone hurt.....

Make sure you know what you're getting if you go with an M1.

They are, hands down, WAY better than a Mosin.

Yes, I own both, actually all three. The M1's are an older one from CMP, by H&R (.30/06) and a Springfield Scout (.308).

 

[pontifex]

Originally posted by: Cable God
Guys keep throwing around terms as always..... M1's today, made by Springfield are NOT .30/06. They are 7.62 NATO, or .308 Winchester.

The M1 of old, IS a .30/06 in caliber though.

Big difference when you try to chamber and fire a .30/06 round in a .308 gun.

Throwing it around that loosely will SURELY get someone hurt.....

Make sure you know what you're getting if you go with an M1.

They are, hands down, WAY better than a Mosin.

Yes, I own both, actually all three. The M1's are an older one from CMP, by H&R (.30/06) and a Springfield Scout (.308).

i think it was pretty obvious we were talking about the original M1 Garands, not the new ones.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: Cable God
Guys keep throwing around terms as always..... M1's today, made by Springfield are NOT .30/06. They are 7.62 NATO, or .308 Winchester.

The M1 of old, IS a .30/06 in caliber though.

Big difference when you try to chamber and fire a .30/06 round in a .308 gun.

Throwing it around that loosely will SURELY get someone hurt.....

Make sure you know what you're getting if you go with an M1.

They are, hands down, WAY better than a Mosin.

Yes, I own both, actually all three. The M1's are an older one from CMP, by H&R (.30/06) and a Springfield Scout (.308).

It also makes a difference M1 Garand (.30-06 or the .308/7.62 NATO) vs the Carbine (.30)

 

[Born2bwire]

Originally posted by: Cable God
Guys keep throwing around terms as always..... M1's today, made by Springfield are NOT .30/06. They are 7.62 NATO, or .308 Winchester.

The M1 of old, IS a .30/06 in caliber though.

Big difference when you try to chamber and fire a .30/06 round in a .308 gun.

Throwing it around that loosely will SURELY get someone hurt.....

Make sure you know what you're getting if you go with an M1.

They are, hands down, WAY better than a Mosin.

Yes, I own both, actually all three. The M1's are an older one from CMP, by H&R (.30/06) and a Springfield Scout (.308).

The new production Springfield Armory M1's were produced in both 30'06 and .308.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

Originally posted by: Cable God
Guys keep throwing around terms as always..... M1's today, made by Springfield are NOT .30/06. They are 7.62 NATO, or .308 Winchester.

The M1 of old, IS a .30/06 in caliber though.

Big difference when you try to chamber and fire a .30/06 round in a .308 gun.

Throwing it around that loosely will SURELY get someone hurt.....

Make sure you know what you're getting if you go with an M1.

They are, hands down, WAY better than a Mosin.

Yes, I own both, actually all three. The M1's are an older one from CMP, by H&R (.30/06) and a Springfield Scout (.308).

Springfield isn't even the same company as the one of long ago. Someone else just purchased the name. Same for Armalite. Nuttin' to do with the original companies.

 

[Cable God]

Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones

Originally posted by: Cable God
Guys keep throwing around terms as always..... M1's today, made by Springfield are NOT .30/06. They are 7.62 NATO, or .308 Winchester.

The M1 of old, IS a .30/06 in caliber though.

Big difference when you try to chamber and fire a .30/06 round in a .308 gun.

Throwing it around that loosely will SURELY get someone hurt.....

Make sure you know what you're getting if you go with an M1.

They are, hands down, WAY better than a Mosin.

Yes, I own both, actually all three. The M1's are an older one from CMP, by H&R (.30/06) and a Springfield Scout (.308).

Springfield isn't even the same company as the one of long ago. Someone else just purchased the name. Same for Armalite. Nuttin' to do with the original companies.

He didn't say which he was going with (CMP or Springfield) I just wanted him to be aware, that there are two different chamberings depending on age (even though this IS alkemyst). It's easy to get confused. H&R is Harrington & Richardson. Winchester also manufactured M1A's as well. I wasn't referring to the carbine nor the paratrooper model.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones

Originally posted by: Cable God
Guys keep throwing around terms as always..... M1's today, made by Springfield are NOT .30/06. They are 7.62 NATO, or .308 Winchester.

The M1 of old, IS a .30/06 in caliber though.

Big difference when you try to chamber and fire a .30/06 round in a .308 gun.

Throwing it around that loosely will SURELY get someone hurt.....

Make sure you know what you're getting if you go with an M1.

They are, hands down, WAY better than a Mosin.

Yes, I own both, actually all three. The M1's are an older one from CMP, by H&R (.30/06) and a Springfield Scout (.308).

Springfield isn't even the same company as the one of long ago. Someone else just purchased the name. Same for Armalite. Nuttin' to do with the original companies.

It's been around since 1974...most of this 'old' vs 'new' crap started with the XD polymer guns and how Springfield started making toys.

There are still asshats out there that think anything but an original Colt 1911/A is a counterfeit.

 

[Analog]

Originally posted by: Cable God

Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones

Originally posted by: Cable God
Guys keep throwing around terms as always..... M1's today, made by Springfield are NOT .30/06. They are 7.62 NATO, or .308 Winchester.

The M1 of old, IS a .30/06 in caliber though.

Big difference when you try to chamber and fire a .30/06 round in a .308 gun.

Throwing it around that loosely will SURELY get someone hurt.....

Make sure you know what you're getting if you go with an M1.

They are, hands down, WAY better than a Mosin.

Yes, I own both, actually all three. The M1's are an older one from CMP, by H&R (.30/06) and a Springfield Scout (.308).

Springfield isn't even the same company as the one of long ago. Someone else just purchased the name. Same for Armalite. Nuttin' to do with the original companies.

He didn't say which he was going with (CMP or Springfield) I just wanted him to be aware, that there are two different chamberings depending on age (even though this IS alkemyst). It's easy to get confused. H&R is Harrington & Richardson. Winchester also manufactured M1A's as well. I wasn't referring to the carbine nor the paratrooper model.

Don't confuse M1As with M1 Garands.

M1A = 308 Nato (7.62 Nato)

M1 = .30-06

M1A's were never manufactured by Winchester.

M1As are the little brother of the M-14 select fire.

If I remember correctly, M1 Garands were built by:

Springfield
H&R
International Harvester
Winchester

I got mine from the DCM when they still had select grade. Mine is in virtually unissued condition, and I've never fired it. I use the gun club's Garands, which have had literally thousands of rounds fired through them and they still shoot great.

I have a Polish M44 still in cosmoline and unissued, but I'd still take the Garand in a pinch.

 

[Peelback79]

Originally posted by: alkemyst
I am not really a gun elitist...looking for real-world shooters.

I am looking for a gun for that end of world scenario. Most of the uber recommendations (like FN's) simply will not have any ammo around if the shit hits the fan.

I like the idea of the Mosin as it's a freaking monster when it comes to firing dirty and unmaintained, but I don't like the fact that some have reported buying them that were unshootable or dangerous/backfiring/etc.

If I did end up with the Mosin, I'd definitely drop another $100 or so on a nice stock. More than the gun is worth sure...but it'll pay off in handling it.

I intend to possibly buy a handgun as well, debating that a lot. I don't plan on a concealed carry I want something I know I can always find ammo for that will absofuckinglutely put my assailant down...I am concerned with shooting through body armor. Most of the thugs down here have better armor than the police.

Mosin's are cheap, but they're bolt action. Low rate of fire.

M1's are more expensive, but ammo pricing are relatively as cheap as a mosin. It's also IMO, a more accurate gun. However, you're limited to 8 rounds per clip.

You're going to spend around $100 for a decent Mosin, and I'd recommend spending at least $600-700 on an M1 if you go that route.

May I offer an alternative though: An AK-47. Rated battle range of 300 yards (recommended range of engagement at maximum). The standard in performance vs. maintanance. Cheap ammo. A decent AK can be had for $350 at a gun show. Plus, it's more expensive, but you can add a 100 round drum to the bottom for sustained rawr! It's a .30 caliber bullet that will still punch through any body armor at 200 yards. Here's mine. Best $500 clams I ever spent so far.

 

[alkemyst]

not really looking at AK-47's they are not equivalent. Same way with non-Garand's.

 

[Peelback79]

Originally posted by: alkemyst
not really looking at AK-47's they are not equivalent. Same way with non-Garand's.

kk. Go with the M1. More accurate, ammo just as available, higher rate of fire, quicker reload.

 

[jamesbond007]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: Mo0o
I dont know shit about guns but what about the AR-15? Is the ammo rare?

AR-15 is expensive and the ammo isn't that 'effective' more or less.

You can do a few youtube searches on how a concrete wall is handled by a .223 vs the 7.62 or equivalent rounds.

I'd love an AK-47, but the 'good' ones are going for a pretty steep price from what I have seen.

Ah - you bring up the wonderful debate of power and reliability versus accuracy and precision. Good luck hitting a target at 200+ yards with MOA precision with your AK. Not saying it can't be done, but it's far more difficult to pull off.

I adore my AR-15 and I would have to be pretty tight on funds to ever sell this wonderful gun. I'm adding a DD free-float quadrail later this summer, which should help even more with accuracy. It's my anti-zombie weapon of choice and I have a FNP-45 as a sidearm.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: jamesbond007

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: Mo0o
I dont know shit about guns but what about the AR-15? Is the ammo rare?

AR-15 is expensive and the ammo isn't that 'effective' more or less.

You can do a few youtube searches on how a concrete wall is handled by a .223 vs the 7.62 or equivalent rounds.

I'd love an AK-47, but the 'good' ones are going for a pretty steep price from what I have seen.

Ah - you bring up the wonderful debate of power and reliability versus accuracy and precision. Good luck hitting a target at 200+ yards with MOA precision with your AK. Not saying it can't be done, but it's far more difficult to pull off.

I adore my AR-15 and I would have to be pretty tight on funds to ever sell this wonderful gun. I'm adding a DD free-float quadrail later this summer, which should help even more with accuracy. It's my anti-zombie weapon of choice and I have a FNP-45 as a sidearm.

problem with the AR-15 can easily be seen on YouTube vs many other guns. It's accurate, excellent rate of fire; yes...however it's not a big game round and will not go through a concrete wall like higher caliber guns will.

You have to look at the "why" of the AR-15 to understand it's purpose and intent though. I know many that love them just because they can show them around like a big gun wiener with thousands of dollars in outfitting.

The long barreled Mosin's have a iron sights to 2000 meters.

This thread has gone off track to those simply speculating rather than have fired these guns.

 

[jamesbond007]

Originally posted by: alkemyst
problem with the AR-15 can easily be seen on YouTube vs many other guns. It's accurate, excellent rate of fire; yes...however it's not a big game round and will not go through a concrete wall like higher caliber guns will.

You have to look at the "why" of the AR-15 to understand it's purpose and intent though. I know many that love them just because they can show them around like a big gun wiener with thousands of dollars in outfitting.

The long barreled Mosin's have a iron sights to 2000 meters.

This thread has gone off track to those simply speculating rather than have fired these guns.

Hahaha! I don't have any plans on shooting deer (yes I hunt deer with my AR, never a problem, typically just one shot needed) behind concrete walls. Additionally, I only shoot what I see and can identify. I have shot through some pretty thick plates of steel (3/4" maybe more?) at 100+ yards without any problems with my M855 AP rounds. People also need to consider the collateral damage when shooting the AK, even in "SHTF" and "Zombie" situations since the round carries much farther than anticipated.

I haven't shot a Mosin, so I cannot comment on that gun. The M1 Garand is a fantastic gun, but I felt no reason to reiterate and echo other's comments about the difference of the average on-the-shelf 30-06 and the proper cartridge for the M1.

I HAVE shot a K98 Mauser 8mm and that is quite the setup...OP could consider that, but it's bolt-action and holds a mere 5+1 rounds at a time. Shells are pretty spendy, but can be had for cheaper online and especially if the OP reloads. My friend bought his K98 for around $500 last year.

 

[alkemyst]

K98 + the ammo is much more expensive than a Mosin and many still prefer the Mosin.

The K98 Is a great rifle as well.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: alkemyst
The long barreled Mosin's have a iron sights to 2000 meters.

At which point they are useless unless you're Simo Häyhä and have a specially-prepared and smithed variant like he did.

Honestly, the iron sights on a Mosin are not great. They are "close enough for government work" out to 200 or maybe 300 yards on the average rifle. Further than that and you'll want optics. If you buy one of the Finnish or the sniper variants, then they will be more accurate, but the sights are still not nearly as friendly as peep sights are.

The 1,000+ meter markings on the sight of the Mosin were for volley fire, not aimed fire.

As far as the 7.62x54R going through concrete... Cinder blocks maybe, but not anything substantially hardened.

ZV

 

[Billyzeke]

Originally posted by: Peelback79


Mosin's are cheap, but they're bolt action. Low rate of fire.

M1's are more expensive, but ammo pricing are relatively as cheap as a mosin. It's also IMO, a more accurate gun. However, you're limited to 8 rounds per clip.

You're going to spend around $100 for a decent Mosin, and I'd recommend spending at least $600-700 on an M1 if you go that route.

May I offer an alternative though: An AK-47. Rated battle range of 300 yards (recommended range of engagement at maximum). The standard in performance vs. maintanance. Cheap ammo. A decent AK can be had for $350 at a gun show. Plus, it's more expensive, but you can add a 100 round drum to the bottom for sustained rawr! It's a .30 caliber bullet that will still punch through any body armor at 200 yards. Here's mine. Best $500 clams I ever spent so far.

From your pic it looks like you should spend a few more clams and get a longer stock for your AK. (I'm not being a smartass because I had the same problem.) K-VAR makes some nice sets. I put this one on my AK. The extra 1.25 inches in length makes a big difference. The one I linked to is for a milled receiver, they make them for stamped also, and in different colors. It really improved the looks and feel of my rifle. The only complaint I have is the pistol grip should be a tad wider.

Back on topic: I would say the Garand is definitely the better rifle of the two. However if these are the only two guns of choice I would go with the Nagant and spend the money saved to buy ammo. Then pray that I won't have to go into combat against someone toting a high capacity weapon.

 

[clamum]

Regarding the CMP route when buying a Garand: It says you need to be a member of one of their listed clubs or groups. I'm not and I looked at their ones in Michigan and there's none around where I live (all are downstate MI and I live in the Upper Peninsula). So is buying one through them kinda shot-in-the-ass for me? If so, what is the next best option (there's also no gun shops around here either) get a nice, doesn't have to be perfect, quality Garand?

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

Join the Garand Collectors Assocation. $25 a year IIRC

 

[clamum]

Oh wow, that's awesome. Thanks man.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: alkemyst
The long barreled Mosin's have a iron sights to 2000 meters.

At which point they are useless unless you're Simo Häyhä and have a specially-prepared and smithed variant like he did.

Honestly, the iron sights on a Mosin are not great. They are "close enough for government work" out to 200 or maybe 300 yards on the average rifle. Further than that and you'll want optics. If you buy one of the Finnish or the sniper variants, then they will be more accurate, but the sights are still not nearly as friendly as peep sights are.

The 1,000+ meter markings on the sight of the Mosin were for volley fire, not aimed fire.

As far as the 7.62x54R going through concrete... Cinder blocks maybe, but not anything substantially hardened.

ZV

his was not a specialty prepared anything is was a standard M28/30.

I am not sure what you are talking about variants...they are all Mosin-Nagants. The 91/30's are the oldest and most accurate. I am looking more at the M39, which is a finnish model. The later models (the M39) were re-machined and barreled among other improvments. If the rifle is junk then all bets are off, but many have shot accurately at 400-500 yard with iron sites. Past that it's really scope territory, but their is always talk for 1000 yard kills these made. most of all military rifles see volley firing as a primary means of enemy suppression...just because that is the case doesn't mean they are inaccurate.


This was really about the Mosin vs Garand.

The 7.62x54R round is one of the few effective against a polar bear. It's easily available and cheap. Should a real end of world scenario hit those with the FN's and the other exotics will find themselves assed out on ammo. For around $1000 I could outfit myself with 7000+ rounds.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: clamum
Regarding the CMP route when buying a Garand: It says you need to be a member of one of their listed clubs or groups. I'm not and I looked at their ones in Michigan and there's none around where I live (all are downstate MI and I live in the Upper Peninsula). So is buying one through them kinda shot-in-the-ass for me? If so, what is the next best option (there's also no gun shops around here either) get a nice, doesn't have to be perfect, quality Garand?

There are two requirements. Getting your Type 3 gun license ($30/3 years) is another part of joining a Garand club. The CMP can tell you options in your area if you contact them.

 

[Born2bwire]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

Originally posted by: clamum
Regarding the CMP route when buying a Garand: It says you need to be a member of one of their listed clubs or groups. I'm not and I looked at their ones in Michigan and there's none around where I live (all are downstate MI and I live in the Upper Peninsula). So is buying one through them kinda shot-in-the-ass for me? If so, what is the next best option (there's also no gun shops around here either) get a nice, doesn't have to be perfect, quality Garand?

There are two requirements. Getting your Type 3 gun license ($30/3 years) is another part of joining a Garand club. The CMP can tell you options in your area if you contact them.

When I did it, there was a magazine, the Garand Collector's Association, you could subscribe to (~$15) that qualified. Was cheap, easy, and you got a few issues about M1's. Win-win! Plus the shooting qualification is easier because now you can just use an endorsement from any shooting club.

Originally posted by: alkemyst
K98 + the ammo is much more expensive than a Mosin and many still prefer the Mosin.

The K98 Is a great rifle as well.

Personally, prefer the K98 by far. The Mosin action is rough and the straight bolt is more ackward to work. The rimmed cartridges are always annoying because they can catch on each other. The shorter carbine versions have the annoying loose attached bayonet and while fun for shooting do not have the accuracy of the long guns.

Eveything about the K98k is good to me. The bolt, though it could be shorter since you have to raise your head to work it, has a great action, is smooth, and has some good safety features (which I've had used to good effect on one occasion). The Yugoslavian mausers, M48's, have a shorter bolt but everything else is still mauser copy, so I liked that a bit better. The cartridge is excellent but I've found that any of the 30 cal cartridges are just about the same. .303, 8 mm, 7.62x54R and 30'06 have all performed similarly for me out of the milsurps. I've heard that 8mm milsurp is drying up though so I think I would look at a 1903 Springfield for my next milsurp bolt action rifle. I prefer the sights on American battle rifles too. The rear peep (at least with the later Springfield model but the earlier ladder v-notch had this too) is better than av-notch for me and you get windage adjustments so you don't have to fiddle around with the front sight or use Kentucky windage when necessary.