MacBook: Worth it?

[pm63]

I'm a student and a Windows user (for now) and I've gotten quite sick of it, hence me wanting to change. I was considering a MacBook (basic vesion), since I tried one out the other day and it seemed very nice, with OS X easy to get used to. I know there are threads on this around and I have read them, but I still have some questions:

1. Is it really worth the price? The cheapest one (1.8 Ghz Core Duo, 512 RAM, 60GB HDD) is £750, and I can get a better deal with ASUS, where I can get a computer with an AMD Sempron 64bit processor, 1GB RAM, 80GB HDD, and 15.4" screen for £600? What is it that you are paying for when you buy a Mac, because it seems to me that half the price comes from the Apple name.

2. I will be using it for desktop publishing/word processing, image creation/editing, HTML/PHP coding, web browsing, instant messaging, programming... mainly school work and web design, to be honest. Is the MacBook more suitable for these than Windows XP? And can I get a decent ammount to shareware/open-source software for it?

3. I dont play games at all, but I might feel the need to instal one or two basic ones on the MacBook when I get bored... will it be up to this?

4. The battery life isnt as good as I would like it to be, can you get exchangable batteries for it like on a PC laptop to double the life?

5. OS X is only about $100. Is it not better I buy this and a cheaper laptop, and install it myself?

6. I have had bad experiences with my iPod regarding poor customer service and support. Was this a one off, or are Apple always like this?

That's basically it. I would REALLY love some help on this one, as it seemed great but overpriced. Thanks!

 

[fbrdphreak]

1) Apple != value
2) Open source for Apple? ROFL Apple's software advantage is just what they include; photo, video, and audio editing are included to my knowledge and are quite good actually. Otherwise, any software you add will be just as useful on a PC.
3) Intel GMA950 integrated graphics, thus no gaming to speak of unless it is really old.
4) It isn't a PC or a Mac which determines which batteries you can use; it is the design of the laptop. To my knowledge, MacBook supports only one battery size and that's it. Don't use third party batteries.
5) What cheaper laptop would you install it on? A PC laptop and hack it up to make it work? This discussion has been had many times, but the fact of the matter is that if this were my primary PC, I wouldn't want some hacked crap on there. I need something reliable.
6) Apple is better than most for support, but Lenovo is actually leading customer support right now. Link

Unless you really want to use OS X, I wouldn't get a MacBook. Especially with the numerous fairly major issues Apple has had with them.

 

[AmigaMan]

1) The MacBook is indeed a good value for what you're getting, especially when you include the software that's included. The hardware is top notch and despite what some may say, it's reliable. The case can be made for Lenovo Thinkpads as well in that they're not value-oriented. You pay more for quality and other benefits (included software, style, etc) that manufacturers like Acer, Asus, and Dell can't match.
2) Open source software does indeed exist for the Mac and is quite a thriving community. Plus there's a lot of software written for Linux that you can take advantage of in OSX. As a software development platform, IMO it beats the pants off Windows and is just as productive as Linux. I use my MBP daily for enterprise-level Java development. I previously used Linux on a desktop and OSX is more productive for me, especially as I'm transitioning into more of a project lead role at work.
3) I actually play several games in OSX, none of which "require" the x1600 in my MBP. But the GMA 950 is the limiting factor in games.
4) If you need more power, there's other options for external batters that plug into the power port. But I'd rather just get another battery from Apple if I needed additional runtime.
5) OSX is indeed runnable on other hardware, but it's not legal, not supported obviously, and probably not as reliable.
6) I've had good support for my MBP. I had a bad battery (before it was recalled) and a noisy fan. Both were repaired under warranty with no hassles and a combined downtime of less than a week.

It was a hard choice for me when I was deciding on getting either a MacBookPro or Thinkpad T60p. In the end it came down to a several factors.
1) was I going to be able to play with either notebook before buying it? Not able to with the T60p, while there's an Apple store right down the street from my local mall.
2) I wanted a machine that could play games in Windows. Both the T60p and MBP do that.
3) Do I want to use Linux or OSX? I've used linux for several years and was yearning to play with OSX so the MBP won here. Plus the non-Windows experience is much more pleasant in OSX than Ubuntu.
4) If I have a problem with the machine, how easy would it be to get it fixed? As I said previously, the local Apple Store is a 5 minute drive from home. Not sure what I would have done if I had the Thinkpad except ship it back and incur additional downtime.

The Thinkpad T60p is a fine machine, but IMO, the MBP beats it which is why I have it.

 

[imported_goku]

The macbook will be slow because it's got an integrated video card and OSX is a graphically demanding 3D OS. OSX benefits from a faster video card so you won't exactly be happy with the performance of your mac book.

 

[cheesehead]

Originally posted by: goku
The macbook will be slow because it's got an integrated video card and OSX is a graphically demanding 3D OS. OSX benefits from a faster video card so you won't exactly be happy with the performance of your mac book.

True, but the GMA950 runs OSX just fine. I've seen it.

The MacBook's (either model) dual-core Pentium M processors will beat the pants off of a single-core Sempron in any test you list. And the x1600 video card in the Pro is a very strong performer.

Apples are "consumer" PC's, much like Dell's and Gateway's. You say "I want that", they put it in a box, and you buy it. Although much more powerful and of better quality than most Dell and Gateway machines, you're going to pay a premium over a no-frills speed demon.

Plus, Apple has good tech support. ASUS does not. And OSX means no viruses, no adware, and much fewer headaches. (Just make sure to get 1GB+ of RAM!)

Plus, they fit in the "thin and light" category, resulting in a price hike, and have excellent battery life. (Four hours for the MacBook according to what I've heard from owners; I can't speaker for the Pro.)

I owned an iBook, and my father currently has an iBook G4. They're convenient, quality machines with strong support, and you pay for it.

 

[AmigaMan]

Originally posted by: goku
The macbook will be slow because it's got an integrated video card and OSX is a graphically demanding 3D OS. OSX benefits from a faster video card so you won't exactly be happy with the performance of your mac book.

not really. the main inhibitor of performance in a MacBook in it's stock 512MB configuration is RAM. It's fine for basic things, but once you start opening up multiple apps at once and doing more than your basic word processing/surfing, it gets a bit slow as it starts thrashing the pagefile. 1GB should really be the minimum memory shipped nowadays.
But the same thing can be said about Vista and it's Aero UI. People like the eye-candy. Personally, I just care about finely rendered fonts and a clean UI rather than all the 3D animation crap.

 

[Commodus]

Originally posted by: pm63

1. Is it really worth the price? The cheapest one (1.8 Ghz Core Duo, 512 RAM, 60GB HDD) is £750, and I can get a better deal with ASUS, where I can get a computer with an AMD Sempron 64bit processor, 1GB RAM, 80GB HDD, and 15.4" screen for £600? What is it that you are paying for when you buy a Mac, because it seems to me that half the price comes from the Apple name.

The ASUS laptop only seems like a better deal because they're using cheaper parts. A Sempron is a low-end, single-core processor; the Core Duo is a mid-range dual-core model. The 15.4-inch screen on that ASUS is probably the exact same 1280x800 resolution as the MacBook's, so all you get is the extra bulk.

Also, does the ASUS have Bluetooth? Anti-drop hard drive protection? MagSafe (which prevents a pull on the cable from dragging the laptop off a desk)? A webcam and remote? Yes, the ASUS is a good deal if you're only going to do the more basic functions, but you're not 'just' paying more for the name - there's a lot more computer there.

2. I will be using it for desktop publishing/word processing, image creation/editing, HTML/PHP coding, web browsing, instant messaging, programming... mainly school work and web design, to be honest. Is the MacBook more suitable for these than Windows XP? And can I get a decent ammount to shareware/open-source software for it?

You'll have quite a few options for most of that. OpenOffice, The GIMP (image editing), Adium (instant messaging), and so on. The tricky bit will be app programming (not PHP), since of course development apps will be tailored to OS X. Apple's Xcode comes free with the OS DVD (either with a system or in an upgrade DVD).

3. I dont play games at all, but I might feel the need to instal one or two basic ones on the MacBook when I get bored... will it be up to this?

Basic games? Sure. Plenty of 2D games and older 3D titles will run well. Just don't expect to max out World of Warcraft using integrated graphics.

4. The battery life isnt as good as I would like it to be, can you get exchangable batteries for it like on a PC laptop to double the life?

There aren't official extended batteries, but I know you can get external ones from Battery Geek and others that will let it run much, much longer. There may be 3rd-party internal batteries that help too.

5. OS X is only about $100. Is it not better I buy this and a cheaper laptop, and install it myself?

No. No, no, no. The stand-alone copy of OS X only runs on PowerPC Macs, not Intel ones. And it doesn't run officially on anything but a Mac in the first place. That's one reason why OS X "just works" - Apple doesn't have to include 20,000 different drivers (that's not an exaggeration) and test them to support all kinds of generic configurations. You can unofficially jury-rig OS X to run on generic systems, but some of the drivers probably won't be there and there's no guarantee that you'll get OS updates.

6. I have had bad experiences with my iPod regarding poor customer service and support. Was this a one off, or are Apple always like this?

I can't promise a perfect experience, but Apple's generally held in higher regard for computers. By contrast, I've heard ASUS' support isn't that great at all.

 

[cheesehead]

Yes, you can swap out the batteries on both MacBooks. A second battery means double the battery life.

 

[fbrdphreak]

but you're not 'just' paying more for the name - there's a lot more computer there.

The best value in notebooks these days is around the $1000 price range, so its not like Apple has a monopoly on value or anything. And overall quality wise, I would choose a different notebook on the simple fact of the sheer number of issues there have been with the MacBook thus far.

 

[Adn4n]

Why exactly are you getting tired of Windows XP?

 

[BladeVenom]

Originally posted by: Adn4n
Why exactly are you getting tired of Windows XP?

Good question. The only major disadvantage to XP is security. If you're will to spend a bit of effort and time that can easily be corrected. Security Thread

 

[Tegeril]

Originally posted by: Cheesehead
Yes, you can swap out the batteries on both MacBooks. A second battery means double the battery life.

And a little known feature of newer Mac laptops is that you can put them to sleep, wait about 10 seconds for the sleep light to begin pulsing, and then you can remove the battery. When you put the next battery in, the computer returns from a pseudo-hibernate mode right back to where you were.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Tegeril
And a little known feature of newer Mac laptops is that you can put them to sleep, wait about 10 seconds for the sleep light to begin pulsing, and then you can remove the battery. When you put the next battery in, the computer returns from a pseudo-hibernate mode right back to where you were.

I've had a mac laptop since 2001 and I didn't know that.

 

[6000SUX]

Originally posted by: AmigaMan

Originally posted by: goku
The macbook will be slow because it's got an integrated video card and OSX is a graphically demanding 3D OS. OSX benefits from a faster video card so you won't exactly be happy with the performance of your mac book.

not really. the main inhibitor of performance in a MacBook in it's stock 512MB configuration is RAM. It's fine for basic things, but once you start opening up multiple apps at once and doing more than your basic word processing/surfing, it gets a bit slow as it starts thrashing the pagefile. 1GB should really be the minimum memory shipped nowadays.
But the same thing can be said about Vista and it's Aero UI. People like the eye-candy. Personally, I just care about finely rendered fonts and a clean UI rather than all the 3D animation crap.

Amen.

 

[manly]

It'll be a better value once Apple updates it with the Core 2 Duo processor. If they stick with the measly 512 MB RAM, they might even drop the MSRP down to $999.

 

[pm63]

Thanks for all the replies.

Originally posted by: Adn4n
Why exactly are you getting tired of Windows XP?

Well... apart from secutiry reasons, its very instable, which pisses me off. All of the drivers also annoy me. Its hard to put into words... but I'm beginning to feel that as I get more experienced with the developer side of computing, Windows isnt the OS for me. The only thing I think it really has over a Mac is the larger ammount of games available for it. And since I don't play games, that doesnt really matter. When I tried OS X it seemed very easy to get used to, and more the OS for my requirements.

I asked an IT specialist, however, and he said that, since the rest of the world (basically) uses Windows, there are compatibility issues with my potential OS-to-be and the rest of the world. How true is this, in your opinions?

And if I do decide on OS X, should I wait for a Core 2 Duo MacBook, even if it seemed fast enough for me when I tried it? Thanks.

 

[manly]

Originally posted by: pm63
I asked an IT specialist, however, and he said that, since the rest of the world (basically) uses Windows, there are compatibility issues with my potential OS-to-be and the rest of the world. How true is this, in your opinions?

If he had a full opportunity to explain and that's all he said, then it doesn't seem like he knows any more than goku.

And if I do decide on OS X, should I wait for a Core 2 Duo MacBook, even if it seemed fast enough for me when I tried it? Thanks.

Yes. Although it's unlikely Apple will make any major changes (see Mac mini), they might drop the price. More importantly, any remaining problems with the MacBook should be expunged with the C2D refresh.

 

[AmigaMan]

Originally posted by: pm63
Thanks for all the replies.

Originally posted by: Adn4n
Why exactly are you getting tired of Windows XP?

Well... apart from secutiry reasons, its very instable, which pisses me off. All of the drivers also annoy me. Its hard to put into words... but I'm beginning to feel that as I get more experienced with the developer side of computing, Windows isnt the OS for me. The only thing I think it really has over a Mac is the larger ammount of games available for it. And since I don't play games, that doesnt really matter. When I tried OS X it seemed very easy to get used to, and more the OS for my requirements.

I asked an IT specialist, however, and he said that, since the rest of the world (basically) uses Windows, there are compatibility issues with my potential OS-to-be and the rest of the world. How true is this, in your opinions?

And if I do decide on OS X, should I wait for a Core 2 Duo MacBook, even if it seemed fast enough for me when I tried it? Thanks.

Yeah, the rest of the world does use Windows, but I haven't had any problems integrating with them. It's actually bit easier than if I were to use Linux. I can connect to Windows shared drives, connect to NFS shares, connect to 802.11 B/G wireless networks (WEP/WPA), share documents written in Word and Excel, connect to Exchange servers, and pretty much do everything my Windows brethren can do functionally. There will be the occasional program written only for Windows that I won't be able to take advantage of. In those cases, Parallels or Bootcamp will work for me. The only things I've run into that could cause problems are Visio diagrams and Microsoft Project plans. For Visio as long as the person who created them saved as an XML document, I can open it with Omni Graffle. For MS Project, I'm pretty much out of luck for now. The Omni Group is making a Project-like app that I don't think is released yet.

But with the exception of playing games, to me there is no reason I would ever switch back to Windows. If my MacBookPro ever gets long in the tooth and I need to upgrade, I'd either choose another Mac or a machine I could install Linux on. I'm done with Windows, no offense to Mr. Gates.

 

[pm63]

Originally posted by: AmigaMan

Originally posted by: pm63
Thanks for all the replies.

Originally posted by: Adn4n
Why exactly are you getting tired of Windows XP?

Well... apart from secutiry reasons, its very instable, which pisses me off. All of the drivers also annoy me. Its hard to put into words... but I'm beginning to feel that as I get more experienced with the developer side of computing, Windows isnt the OS for me. The only thing I think it really has over a Mac is the larger ammount of games available for it. And since I don't play games, that doesnt really matter. When I tried OS X it seemed very easy to get used to, and more the OS for my requirements.

I asked an IT specialist, however, and he said that, since the rest of the world (basically) uses Windows, there are compatibility issues with my potential OS-to-be and the rest of the world. How true is this, in your opinions?

And if I do decide on OS X, should I wait for a Core 2 Duo MacBook, even if it seemed fast enough for me when I tried it? Thanks.

Yeah, the rest of the world does use Windows, but I haven't had any problems integrating with them. It's actually bit easier than if I were to use Linux. I can connect to Windows shared drives, connect to NFS shares, connect to 802.11 B/G wireless networks (WEP/WPA), share documents written in Word and Excel, connect to Exchange servers, and pretty much do everything my Windows brethren can do functionally. There will be the occasional program written only for Windows that I won't be able to take advantage of. In those cases, Parallels or Bootcamp will work for me. The only things I've run into that could cause problems are Visio diagrams and Microsoft Project plans. For Visio as long as the person who created them saved as an XML document, I can open it with Omni Graffle. For MS Project, I'm pretty much out of luck for now. The Omni Group is making a Project-like app that I don't think is released yet.

But with the exception of playing games, to me there is no reason I would ever switch back to Windows. If my MacBookPro ever gets long in the tooth and I need to upgrade, I'd either choose another Mac or a machine I could install Linux on. I'm done with Windows, no offense to Mr. Gates.

Thanks. All of that stuff you mentioned seems much more complex integratio than I will need. All I really need is for Office files to be compatible. Thing is, I can get MS Office studen/teacher for £99, but it doesn't contain Publisher or Access, my favourite programs! I was thinking about OpenOffice, but do you know just how compatible it is with MS Office and how good, say, an Open Office write document would look opened in Word?

I guess I might wait for Apple to update the MacBook before I buy... does anyone know how long this can take? Thanks.

And to however said the IT guy wasnt smart... hehe it was actually my mum who asked on my behalf just before work which is why the answer was not so in depth. I'll email him in more detail.

 

[Commodus]

Originally posted by: pm63

Thanks. All of that stuff you mentioned seems much more complex integratio than I will need. All I really need is for Office files to be compatible. Thing is, I can get MS Office studen/teacher for £99, but it doesn't contain Publisher or Access, my favourite programs! I was thinking about OpenOffice, but do you know just how compatible it is with MS Office and how good, say, an Open Office write document would look opened in Word?

I guess I might wait for Apple to update the MacBook before I buy... does anyone know how long this can take? Thanks.

And to however said the IT guy wasnt smart... hehe it was actually my mum who asked on my behalf just before work which is why the answer was not so in depth. I'll email him in more detail.

OpenOffice is largely compatible - if you create a standard .doc or .xls file you can assume it'll appear with formatting intact. There may be the occasional, slight change but I've never seen a showstopper.

For Publisher and Access, there are Mac equivalents (FileMaker is frequently cited as an equivalent to Access) but they may not export to Microsoft's formats. You could always use Parallels, a copy of Windows, and your existing copy of Office. Yeah, you're trying to get away from Windows, but if you need to fire up Publisher you can't just pray that Microsoft will finally port the app.

It'd be nice if Crossover Mac was finished - it'd cost you money but should run many Windows apps without requiring Windows itself.

As for the MacBook, it could be a few weeks. There are no signs of an imminent update, only the beginnings of rumors that suggest a new model is gradually ramping up. I would only expect the Core 2 Duo and perhaps 1GB of RAM as standard.

 

[pm63]

It'd be nice if Crossover Mac was finished - it'd cost you money but should run many Windows apps without requiring Windows itself.

As for the MacBook, it could be a few weeks. There are no signs of an imminent update, only the beginnings of rumors that suggest a new model is gradually ramping up. I would only expect the Core 2 Duo and perhaps 1GB of RAM as standard.

Hmm, I'll wait a bit and see if they do release an update. If they do, I'll get that (probably). And I've had a look at that Crossover Mac, it seems really useful, and at a good price also. I'll definately look into it if I get the MacBook (it does take up 120MB but I guess its worth it). And its for Intel Macs. I'll have to find out if there are any issues with it before buying it.

A MacBook update w/ Crossover Mac would suit me just fine.

Its a general question, but are there any other things I should watch out for, being a Windows user?

And if I decinde on a PC laptop, what would you guys reccomend?

Thanks.

 

[Fraggable]

In short, yes it is worth it. I bought one a few weeks ago and love it. I've always been an annoyed Windows user and am glad I have it as an option now. It's plenty fast for word processing, etc with the 512mb ram but you can get more for cheap at the Egg. DO NOT pay them to preinstall it.

The GMA 950 isn't too bad, you can play some older games.

Batteries are one size only.

 

[BladeVenom]

No Access for Macs. Another important piece of software not available for Macs is AutoCAD. You're going to find a lot of software you want is not available for Macs. Even if there's a simular program, then you run into file incompatability. Switching is expensive both in time, and money. I hope all the work you've done on your PC disposable, otherwise you're still going to need to keep Windows around for awhile.

What I find funny is that the Mac users I know all say that learing to use a Mac is easier, but they all still have to know how to use Windows for work, school, games, because other family members use Windows, or because of software that's only available on Windows.

 

[AmigaMan]

Originally posted by: BladeVenom
What I find funny is that the Mac users I know all say that learing to use a Mac is easier, but they all still have to know how to use Windows for work, school, games, because other family members use Windows, or because of software that's only available on Windows.

I don't get what you're trying to say. Yes a Mac is easier to learn than Windows, and yes, some Mac users have to know how to use Windows. What's your point? Having to know Windows has no correlation with the Mac being easier to use.

You could say that we're smarter than Windows users because we know how to use both operating systems. And technically that's true because we possess knowledge that a Windows user won't have. But that's probably not your point either.

 

[BladeVenom]

My point is that all the Mac users I know have had to learn two operating systems instead of just one. So their whole argument for switching to Apple is pointless since they all still have to use Windows.