Maddow just tweeted she has Trumps tax returns

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desura

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2013
4,627
129
101
She obviously thought she had a very damning piece of evidence, but apparently she never bothered to check it out before airing it. They had a damned countdown clock running, FFS.

This is a huge failure at due diligence, and should permanently damage what little credibility she had as a "journalist."

No, because she hasn't not had to retract it as a forgery or fake.

It looks legit.

Of course she has a partisan axe to grind and on the partisanship front she completely fell on her face.
 

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,297
352
126
Huh? There is no dispute I am aware of that the documents she put forth are genuine, so if anything this makes her MORE credible and should make you even MORE convinced of her ability to report accurate information. What has been said is that perhaps Trump's team leaked the document themselves in order to make him look good but that in no way discredits her. I'm seriously baffled how you think her reporting factually true things makes her less credible.

It doesn't fit her political agenda, that much is sure, but if anything that would once again bolster her credibility if she was willing to publish it. Let's be frank though, it was just a ratings grab. She may have a political ideology but the ideology of ratings comes first.

You make good points, assuming the pages are real, then I agree with you 100%.

I was simply going off what others have posted saying that it may be fake.


What makes you believe that the document is genuine? Because the Trump Admin says it is?

It could easily be fakery designed to make Donald look good.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
101
You make good points, assuming the pages are real, then I agree with you 100%.

I was simply going off what others have posted saying that it may be fake.

Doesn't seem likely that the information is fake, it's just that she was dumb enough to get manipulated so easily by the "dumb" orange guy in the white house.
 

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,297
352
126
Doesn't seem likely that the information is fake, it's just that she was dumb enough to get manipulated so easily by the "dumb" orange guy in the white house.

As fski has stated. I don't believe that this makes her dumb if the information is true. It actually shows she is reporting information that is accurate and important to the people, regardless of if it fits her own political agenda. This is a big positive for them as Trump cannot say that they are lying to people or withholding true information that makes him look good.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,775
49,434
136
Doesn't seem likely that the information is fake, it's just that she was dumb enough to get manipulated so easily by the "dumb" orange guy in the white house.

It's hard to say that she was dumb enough to be manipulated by him considering that both she and her source explicitly stated on air the possibility that they had been given the documents by Trump. She saw the possibility for good ratings and took them.

Also I'm not aware of too many people who think Trump is stupid. He seems to be lazy, ignorant, and emotionally unstable, but not stupid.
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,652
5,224
136
It's hard to say that she was dumb enough to be manipulated by him considering that both she and her source explicitly stated on air the possibility that they had been given the documents by Trump. She saw the possibility for good ratings and took them.

Also I'm not aware of too many people who think Trump is stupid. He seems to be lazy, ignorant, and emotionally unstable, but not stupid.

She and David seemed pretty transparent that they do not know the source, it may be Trump and fits with his history, they first alerted and confirmed the numbers with the WH, and lastly the important information is in the schedule documents.

As far as journalistic standards, I don't think she can be faulted.

As far as rushing to publish/televise it... IDK.

It very well may have been cherry picked by Trump or otherwise part of a manipulation.

Could they have sat on it? I maybe would have waited for a few days to see what shakes out. The media usually doesn't have that patience as there is the drive to get the scoop.

They got something, but hard to tell what it is and why.
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,652
5,224
136
Yes, egg on her face.


Could be. Time will tell. Too much fog right now.

It would be best cleared up if Trump released his returns voluntarily. The audit excuse is a sham, and no reason not to show 2016 or very old returns unless you are hiding something.
 

jmagg

Platinum Member
Nov 21, 2001
2,057
386
126
The audit excuse could very well be a scam, or hes just holding back to drop the legit bomb at some point in frenzy time. One never knows in political theater.
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,652
5,224
136
The audit excuse could very well be a scam, or hes just holding back to drop the legit bomb at some point in frenzy time. One never knows.

Considering what a cluster F his Trumpcare bill is turning out to be, he really should save his deflection ammunition as much as possible. He's going to need it.
 

alien42

Lifer
Nov 28, 2004
12,668
3,067
136
The audit excuse could very well be a scam, or hes just holding back to drop the legit bomb at some point in frenzy time. One never knows in political theater.

it is a scam, not could be a scam, and that has been known for a long time. we also know that Nixon released his taxes while under audit.
 

Thebobo

Lifer
Jun 19, 2006
18,592
7,673
136
I use to listen to her on the radio before she got the MSNBC gig. Folks calling her stupid are just making themselves look silly.

"She attended Stanford University. Maddow earned a degree in public policy at Stanford in 1994.[20] At graduation, she was awarded the John Gardner Fellowship.[21] She was also the recipient of a Rhodes Scholarship and began her postgraduate study in 1995 at Lincoln College, Oxford. She won a Rhodes Scholarship.[22] In 2001, she earned a Doctor of Philosophy (DPhil) in politics at the University of Oxford.[23] Her thesis is titled HIV/AIDS and Health Care Reform in British and American Prisons, and her supervisor was Lucia Zedner"

So thats Dr Maddow to you.
 

Ackmed

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2003
8,478
524
126
How embarrassing for Maddow, and the people who fell for it thinking she had latest and previously unpublicized tax documents. Then for the people who fell for it, to claim that it was Trump who set all this up. Then even worse, claiming that Maddow didn't lose any credibility? Really just sad.

Meanwhile Trump again claiming "FAKE NEWS" because of her Tweet about having his tax documents. Yet he did the same thing about a Tweet claiming Obama had him under surveillance. That's pretty hypocritical of him, posting something not true, or at the very least not proven. He need to put up or shut up. Even if by some miracle its true and he has proof, that was not the way to go about it.

All this bullshit is part of the reason some people are losing, or have lost faith in the media/politics.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,775
49,434
136
How embarrassing for Maddow, and the people who fell for it thinking she had latest and previously unpublicized tax documents. Then for the people who fell for it, to claim that it was Trump who set all this up. Then even worse, claiming that Maddow didn't lose any credibility? Really just sad.

Meanwhile Trump again claiming "FAKE NEWS" because of her Tweet about having his tax documents. Yet he did the same thing about a Tweet claiming Obama had him under surveillance. That's pretty hypocritical of him, posting something not true, or at the very least not proven. He need to put up or shut up. Even if by some miracle its true and he has proof, that was not the way to go about it.

All this bullshit is part of the reason some people are losing, or have lost faith in the media/politics.

I don't think you have a strong grasp of what actually happened here. The documents appear to be legitimate, the White House has in effect confirmed their authenticity, and when presenting them Maddow explicitly said they might have come from Trump himself to make him look better.

How exactly do you think she lost credibility here? This is very confusing.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
101
I use to listen to her on the radio before she got the MSNBC gig. Folks calling her stupid are just making themselves look silly.

"She attended Stanford University. Maddow earned a degree in public policy at Stanford in 1994.[20] At graduation, she was awarded the John Gardner Fellowship.[21] She was also the recipient of a Rhodes Scholarship and began her postgraduate study in 1995 at Lincoln College, Oxford. She won a Rhodes Scholarship.[22] In 2001, she earned a Doctor of Philosophy (DPhil) in politics at the University of Oxford.[23] Her thesis is titled HIV/AIDS and Health Care Reform in British and American Prisons, and her supervisor was Lucia Zedner"

So thats Dr Maddow to you.

That's just a perfect example of how someone can have lots of degrees and credentials and yet be a complete moron.
 
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desura

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2013
4,627
129
101
Maddow is not stupid At all, but smart people fall into ruts too. Sometimes smart people fall into ruts that stupid people don't fall into. Sometimes smart people fall into the same rut.

This is a little bit above that Buzzfeed release of the golden showers rumor, but Maddow fell into the breaking news trap of the business which rewards speed and discourages critical thought. But it was a ratings win for her and they probably made a few hundred thousand dollars off of the big reveal.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,282
28,141
136
This seems like another example of how the right has managed to lower the standards bar but just for themselves.

Rachel overhypes a true story and suddenly she has lost all credibility and the media is biased.
Fox News hypes a complete lie for 5 years of birtherism yet Trump supporters don't care.

Obama once said America isn't perfect...OMG he hates America, apology tour, he doesn't think America is exceptional
Trump directly compared the United States with the murderous Russian regime unter Putin and all is fine.

Compared to past Presidents we now have one who acts like an 8 year old but suddenly it should be acceptable.

Congrats guys
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
-snip-
Does Trump owe a bunch of money to Russian oligarchs?

His tax return shows over $9 million in interest income. A quick google showed average interest income rate of approx 5%. Even at 10%, $9M in interest income would indicate $900 million in capital. I guess I'm not like other people, if I had $900 million sitting around I don't think I'd be borrowing money from a bank, Russian or not.

Fern
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,775
49,434
136
His tax return shows over $9 million in interest income. A quick google showed average interest income rate of approx 5%. Even at 10%, $9M in interest income would indicate $900 million in capital. I guess I'm not like other people, if I had $900 million sitting around I don't think I'd be borrowing money from a bank, Russian or not.

Fern

According to Bloomberg he currently owes $300 million to Deutsche Bank alone and in 2005 when you are saying you don't think he would be borrowing money the Trump Organization took out a $640 million loan from Deutsche Bank. So yeah, he's not just borrowing money from banks, he's borrowing a shitload of it.

EDIT: And of course he sued Deutsche instead of pay the money he owed them because Trump.

In 2005, the bank approved a $640 million construction loan so Trump could build his name-sake tower in Chicago. The tower, with dozens of multimillion-dollar condos, broke ground at the height of the real-estate boom. As the project neared completion, the financial crisis hit, sending the global real-estate market crashing. And when part of the loan came due, rather than pay it, Trump sued a lending consortium led by Deutsche Bank for $3 billion.

Force Majeure
His suit argued that the financial crisis was equivalent to an earthquake, triggering a “force majeure” clause, which allows for a payback extension in extraordinary circumstances. Deutsche Bank countersued, claiming Trump owed a $40 million payment, which was a personal guarantee on the debt. The two later settled and, surprisingly, continued doing business together.

He also has two mortgages against his Trump National Doral Miami resort and a loan against his tower in Chicago. All four debts come due in 2023 and 2024. Garten said the Chicago loan no longer has Trump’s personal guarantee because the project has been completed.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...orking-a-big-trump-loan-as-inauguration-nears
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
As regards the source of the tax return:

1. The marking "Client Copy" may be meaningful, although even if accurate it tells us very very little about the source of this leak. I'll explain that below. But any tax professional/IRS personnel realizes the stamp etc down there if left original could indict them. Whether IRS or preparer firm, you're gonna stamp it "Client Copy" if you don't want the trail leading back to you.

2. IRS as source. I think it highly unlikely if only because I don't believe the IRS is going to keep a hard copy of a tax return for so long. The IRS receives millions of tax return every year. Record retention/storage space has been a big problems for them for decades. Hang on to the hard copy of tax return whose statute of limitations expired approx 10 yrs ago? I don't see it.

3. Tax preparer as source. I'm disappointed the preparing firm's name is redacted. But I don't see a firm releasing it. Again if only because we also have storage space expense/difficulties. The industry standard for retention is 6 yrs. I can't see a firm keeping a copy beyond that. I think it unlikely.

4. Trump as source. Not much to say other than, welp, another day another conspiracy theory by the Left.

5. Others. Considering all the businesses he's active in, or was active in, I'd guess about a gazillion copies of Trump's tax return have been sent to bankers etc. I.e., a metric shit ton of banks, firm's and people have had copies of Trump's tax returns. It could have come from just about anywhere.

That copy seems to have been xeroxed a number of times. That indicates it passed through a number of hands. I don't see it as a copy of Trump's original (client) copy. A copy of that original would be much sharper/clearer.

Unless somebody fesses up I don't see us finding out the source.

Fern
 
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