Maine court rules in favor of transgender pupil

[DisgruntledVirus]

I appreciate your perspective..I honestly do. But I find you to be extremely dishonest as regards science and biology.

You seem to want to ignore the inconvenient parts (a biological male is a man by gender) when they disagree with a social "norm" (trans women, in this case) and you pick and choose the science behind psychology when it agrees with your world-view.

I ask again, why does gender identity get to trump your sex at birth?

That's a fair, and valid, question.

There is the phrase "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck." Now obviously we all know that is a joking phrase and very basic inductive reasoning. You can make a robot that fits those characteristics, but it's not a duck. It's a robot. We agree on this I'm assuming.

So by the initial phrase, we would classify this girl as a girl. If you saw her on the street you would NOT know she was born a man would you? So if a person walks like a girl, talks like a girl, looks like a girl, acts like a girl, sees themselves as a girl, has hormones like a girl, and society sees her as a girl then basic inductive reasoning says it's a girl (like the duck saying above). I'd assume we can agree that basic reasoning holds true, as I don't think you (or anybody) goes up to every other person to do a check to see if they have the other gender sexual organs. So the only way you, or anybody, would know is if the person told you for a significant part of transgender individuals. Also, I should note that this discussion is not about cross dressers or people just playing "dress up" to try and get into the girls bathroom/locker room. If this girl walked into a womans bathroom at a store, nobody would suspect anything different as the only place somebody would be able to tell is in the stall of the womans bathroom. And same goes for female-to-male as they would just use a stall (unless they had surgery to get a working penis). So nobody would know the difference. And I'd wager in a locker room situation she probably is going to change in a private way as many people who transition do everything they can to blend in and not be "outed."

Now, we don't know all the details behind this case. All we know is that the school said she had to use the men's bathroom, her and her family disagreed, and the court sided with the family. However the argument that many people seem to have is that you should use whatever bathroom your born gender uses, but that's where I don't entirely agree. I think in most cases yes, that is the case. However for people who successfully transition and live their life as a female, should be treated as a female.

This fear mongering of "well it's only time until one of these freak sexual deviants rapes somebody" is bullshit. First off, find me one case of that happening. You'll find hundreds of cases where a trans person gets assaulted, killed, or otherwise harmed by various groups/individuals. But how many cases can you find of trans people doing the inverse? On top of that, we already have laws on the books to deal with that. What is different between this hypothetical trans person going into a locker room and assaulting a person, and a guy going into a locker room and raping a girl?

So, to summarize and give a shortened version of why a gender identity trumps your biological birth gender, it trumps it when society views you as the non-birth gender and couldn't tell you were not born that gender (without physically examining you). Does that answer your question?

 

[nehalem256]

Because of the interaction with other members of the society, most notably the parents and siblings.

That doesn't answer my question. What defines what male/female gender are?

It seems like people have both biology and how people act. So what exactly does that leave?

 

[Tango]

That doesn't answer my question. What defines what male/female gender are?

It seems like people have both biology and how people act. So what exactly does that leave?

What defines what male/female are.... where and when?

The answer is completely dependent on the society that you are considering when you ask that question.

 

[Iron Woode]

And this is what I am saying is BS. If gender is a societal invention. How can anyone, much less a 2 year old, feel like a member of a certain gender?

I posted gender rolls are a societal invention.

not gender. gender is set at conception. Male or Female. there are no others.

how males and females are supposed to act is a question of society, not genetics.

 

[HAL9000]

Awesome, I see no problem here. Why are people bitching?

 

[alzan]

I posted gender rolls are a societal invention.

not gender. gender is set at conception. Male or Female. there are no others.

how males and females are supposed to act is a question of society, not genetics.

Physical gender is set 6 to 12 weeks after conception. Until then all embryos/fetuses are female.

Although rare there are also cases of babies born with both male/female genitalia or incomplete genitalia. Decades ago it used to be commonplace for surgeons to reassign the physical gender and generally without the parents knowledge or permission.

Imagine the mixed up kids/teens/adults that created.

Edit: found some sites that say the genital "bud" that's the same for XX or XY is formed at 9 weeks with complete physical gender by 20 weeks.

Thanks for the update Tango

 

[Tango]

Physical gender is set 6 to 12 weeks after conception. Until then all embryos/fetuses are female.

Although rare there are also cases of babies born with both male/female genitalia or incomplete genitalia. Decades ago it used to be commonplace for surgeons to reassign the physical gender and generally without the parents knowledge or permission.

Imagine the mixed up kids/teens/adults that created.

I am not sure it is still done, or what could be the alternative, but in the '00 male children with cloacal exstrophy were still often being gender reassigned as females.

 

[Retro Rob]

Awesome, I see no problem here. Why are people bitching?

There is a problem.

I'd like to ask those pro-trans people:

What if you were a straight man, looking to date, and saw a lovely "woman" who also wanted to date you, but never disclosed that "she" used to be a male until after you were deeply in love?

No problem, huh?

From what I read, they don't want to disclose the past because they won't be "who they are". How is that fair to anyone else?

 

[Sonikku]

There is a problem.

I'd like to ask those pro-trans people:

What if you were a straight man, looking to date, and saw a lovely "woman" who also wanted to date you, but never disclosed that "she" used to be a male until after you were deeply in love?

No problem, huh?

From what I read, they don't want to disclose the past because they won't be "who they are". How is that fair to anyone else?

No, that is a problem. Stealth is a fantasy and in a personal relationship you should always be honest with your lover. That would be no different from the L and R thread I responded to versus keeping a significant other in the dark.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=36039901&postcount=24

By the 2nd date, they should know and be allowed to make a determination as for whether or not they can live with that or not before deeply investing further in the relationship.

 

[alzan]

There is a problem.

I'd like to ask those pro-trans people:

What if you were a straight man, looking to date, and saw a lovely "woman" who also wanted to date you, but never disclosed that "she" used to be a male until after you were deeply in love?

No problem, huh?

From what I read, they don't want to disclose the past because they won't be "who they are". How is that fair to anyone else?

There have always been problems/issues when in a relationship with someone, no matter the physical gender and/or gender identity. There's a significant number of heterosexuals whose gender identity matches their physical gender that don't disclose their whole past as well. But in a loving relationship a person's past can be dealt with and acknowledged; if it leads to a break up than so be it. If it leads to greater understanding and a deeper love for each other than that's even better.

As has oft been observed, life isn't fair. In the end it's how we treat each other that counts.

The only problem I'd have with a woman who used to be a physical male that wanted a relationship with me is that I'm already married. If I weren't married, who knows? After all the physical (sexual) relations between a couple are only part of a loving relationship.

 

[Retro Rob]

There have always been problems/issues when in a relationship with someone, no matter the physical gender and/or gender identity. There's a significant number of heterosexuals whose gender identity matches their physical gender that don't disclose their whole past as well. But in a loving relationship a person's past can be dealt with and acknowledged; if it leads to a break up than so be it. If it leads to greater understanding and a deeper love for each other than that's even better.

As has oft been observed, life isn't fair. In the end it's how we treat each other that counts.

The only problem I'd have with a woman who used to be a physical male that wanted a relationship with me is that I'm already married. If I weren't married, who knows? After all the physical (sexual) relations between a couple are only part of a loving relationship.

This whole post is just bull**** because it doesn't address the issue, only masks the potential ramifications under the guise of "life isn't fair...deal with it".

I was asking a serious question about the peculiar situation this would be for one "maintaining his/her identity" against what would be fair to others in society who could experience emotion harm.

Instead, you avoid the point and justify the behavior.

 

[Retro Rob]

No, that is a problem. Stealth is a fantasy and in a personal relationship you should always be honest with your lover. That would be no different from the L and R thread I responded to versus keeping a significant other in the dark.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=36039901&postcount=24

By the 2nd date, they should know and be allowed to make a determination as for whether or not they can live with that or not before deeply investing further in the relationship.

This is a good point, and I will have to look at that thread.

I just think there is an inherit selfishness with this, because to be honest though happily married (planning on staying that way) I am a bit worried about someday running into what I think is a woman, but is really a man if I were single again...especially if I cannot tell the difference by looking.

I doubt that information would be volunteered, especially seeing the effort put forth to look the gender they want. Losing their identity is the last thing they want and outing themselves doesn't help that.

 

[Sonikku]

Acknowledging your past isn't the same as losing your identity. You shouldn't be attempting to deceive the person you love anyway. But even if the transgendered were post op and were able to "pull off" stealth in the bedroom, they aren't doing themselves any favors keeping it a secret. They would spend their whole lives, every single day living in fear of their significant other finding out. That is no way to live. The whole reason why they transition in the first place is to get away from that sort of torment, to discard with the lies. And if their partner is not ok with that kind of thing, then their relationship is doomed to failure because it is based on lies and distrust.

It is selfish to keep your significant other in the dark. They need to know the truth before deciding whether or not to commit the rest of their life to you. But I don't think it is selfish wanting to use the same facilities as the gender you identify as.*

*So long as consideration is afforded to both sides and gaining permission is gained only from a challenging but viable road to prove commitment. Granting permission on a case to case basis only after receiving written recommendations from several trained professionals is fair. It's time consuming. The hoops to jump through serve as a deterrent to abuse. Allowing people to hop in right after they blurt out "I'm feeling fabulous, let me check out the girls locker room right now" is not fair.

 

[Victorian Gray]

How can you "feel" like something that is defined by society?

Do you "feel" like a Democrat?

Also, don't the same people who typically support transgendered people also oppose rigid gender roles?

If failing to conform to say traditional female gender roles makes you a man then wouldn't that mean that women that are more interested in wearing pants suits and having a high powered career than having a family are actually male gendered?

Did you even complete high school? I think the last time I heard 'logic' like that it was from a kid in kindergarten

 

[alzan]

This whole post is just bull**** because it doesn't address the issue, only masks the potential ramifications under the guise of "life isn't fair...deal with it".

I was asking a serious question about the peculiar situation this would be for one "maintaining his/her identity" against what would be fair to others in society who could experience emotion harm.

Instead, you avoid the point and justify the behavior.

Most of us have experienced emotional harm; some of us have learned to grasp it and use it to make themselves stronger. Others would rather cling to it and mete out their frustration/anger upon others.

The potential situation you referred to is analogous to someone who had a fatal illness that was not disclosed to the person they were dating. In a perfect world we would all disclose issues that could harm the relationship up front.

Perhaps I didn't express it as well as Sonikku or others might have; I'm only human after all.

 

[HAL9000]

There is a problem.

I'd like to ask those pro-trans people:

What if you were a straight man, looking to date, and saw a lovely "woman" who also wanted to date you, but never disclosed that "she" used to be a male until after you were deeply in love?

No problem, huh?

From what I read, they don't want to disclose the past because they won't be "who they are". How is that fair to anyone else?

No, no problem.

If you love someone who cares? If that guy truly loved that woman, it wouldn't be an issue.

So what's your point about toilets? are you perhaps saying we should keep transgender people in the toilets of the gender that they were born with so we can spot them when we go on dates?

 

[Retro Rob]

No, no problem.

If you love someone who cares? If that guy truly loved that woman, it wouldn't be an issue.

I think you're best speaking for yourself, because it would definitely be a problem for me, for instance, and I am certain I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Secondly, he fell in love with a "woman"...not someone artificially made to be one. What if he wants to have kids by her, help her through a pregnancy, become a father by her? WRONG!

"Accept ME for who I am...I can care less about what you want"

It doesn't surprise me that people here are OK with someone hiding and lying about what they were/are for the sake of pleasing themselves.

So what's your point about toilets? are you perhaps saying we should keep transgender people in the toilets of the gender that they were born with so we can spot them when we go on dates?

I didn't make any post about toilets. Perhaps you need to direct this to someone else.

 

[Retro Rob]

The potential situation you referred to is analogous to someone who had a fatal illness that was not disclosed to the person they were dating. In a perfect world we would all disclose issues that could harm the relationship up front.

Acknowledging past errors doesn't make it OK to keep making them. Just because disappointment happens, lying happens, failing to disclose information happens, doesn't mean that it's OK for us to keep doing it and then repeating this lying cycle under the false notion that since it happens, then what the hell....let's keep it goin'.

Perhaps I didn't express it as well as Sonikku or others might have; I'm only human after all.

It has nothing to do with your failure to express yourself -- I understood your post. I called it "BS" because you're basically saying its OK to keep doing it because it happens all the time.

Well, I don't want you to punish your kid(s) for lying to you and their mother, after all, kids lie all the time, right Alzan?

 

[alzan]

I think you're best speaking for yourself, because it would definitely be a problem for me, for instance, and I am certain I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Secondly, he fell in love with a "woman"...not someone artificially made to be one. What if he wants to have kids by her, help her through a pregnancy, become a father by her? WRONG!

"Accept ME for who I am...I can care less about what you want"

It doesn't surprise me that people here are OK with someone hiding and lying about what they were/are for the sake of pleasing themselves.

I didn't make any post about toilets. Perhaps you need to direct this to someone else.

I don't think anyone who've read your posts are surprised that it would be a problem for you.

He fell in love with a woman, period. They can always adopt or have children via a surrogate; it can even be done with his sperm so that the child has some of his genes. Men and women can share many things in a relationship that strengthen their love and commitment to each other; raising a child is certainly a wonderful thing to share but it's far from being the only thing.

"Accept me for who I am" is a wonderful sentiment and amazingly enough is most likely how Nicole has felt her whole life; along with a lot of other people. The "I can care less about what you want" is possibly your projection onto the, in your words, "artificial" woman and also an attitude that pervades too much of our daily dealings with people.

 

[Retro Rob]

He fell in love with a woman, period. They can always adopt or have children via a surrogate; it can even be done with his sperm so that the child has some of his genes. Men and women can share many things in a relationship that strengthen their love and commitment to each other; raising a child is certainly a wonderful thing to share but it's far from being the only thing.

Please, excuse my language here as I don't use profanity, but I have to ask:

Would you eat a square of dogshit? If I dipped that dogshit into a bowl of chocolate, would you eat it then? No, because dogshit is dogshit no matter how you dress it up.

Likewise, a man can cut his penis off, get breast implants, get a nose job, butt job... all kinds of plastic surgery. He's still a man.

Dressing up man and calling him a woman, is no different than dipping dogshit into chocolate and calling it chocolate.

This is simply the truth. A man is a man, a woman a woman. Dressing it up otherwise does nothing to change what it is.

 

[alzan]

Acknowledging past errors doesn't make it OK to keep making them. Just because disappointment happens, lying happens, failing to disclose information happens, doesn't mean that it's OK for us to keep doing it and then repeating this lying cycle under the false notion that since it happens, then what the hell....let's keep it goin'.

It has nothing to do with your failure to express yourself -- I understood your post. I called it "BS" because you're basically saying its OK to keep doing it because it happens all the time.

Well, I don't want you to punish your kid(s) for lying to you and their mother, after all, kids lie all the time, right Alzan?

I never said or implied that it's OK to lie; my point was that you need to balance the bad against the good. What if after finding out about the woman's gender change the man, looking at it from her point of view, understood why she kept it a secret and forgave her for lying and still wanted to marry her? Personally I would hold him in higher esteem for having that level of understanding.

If you understood my post to say it's okay to lie than I did express myself poorly. Or perhaps you misunderstood.

It is unfortunately a fact that a lot of lying does go on; for a lot of different reasons. Sometimes we lie to spare another's feelings. I'm sure as a married man you can appreciate the situation of your wife asking you if a certain outfit makes her look fat and you wisely answer "No, dear".

Either way, were I to be in your hypothetical situation; for me it would not be a deal breaker to learn that she did not have the right internal equipment with which to bear children. There are many children in foster care and orphanages who need loving parents.

 

[alzan]

Please, excuse my language here as I don't use profanity, but I have to ask:

Would you eat a square of dogshit? If I dipped that dogshit into a bowl of chocolate, would you eat it then? No, because dogshit is dogshit no matter how you dress it up.

Likewise, a man can cut his penis off, get breast implants, get a nose job, butt job... all kinds of plastic surgery. He's still a man.

Dressing up man and calling him a woman, is no different than dipping dogshit into chocolate and calling it chocolate.

This is simply the truth. A man is a man, a woman a woman. Dressing it up otherwise does nothing to change what it is.

Actually there's worlds of difference between chocolate-dipped dogshit and someone who's undergone sexual reassignment. People don't undergo sexual reassignment lightly, nor do the psychologists and doctors who will be involved.

Our bodies and minds are complicated, and what goes on at a molecular level when fetuses are growing doesn't always end up being a physical/emotional/psychological male or female. And I wouldn't by thought or deed deny someone the opportunity or right to be the person they truly are; to do so would be, imo, evil.

 

[Retro Rob]

I never said or implied that it's OK to lie; my point was that you need to balance the bad against the good. What if after finding out about the woman's gender change the man, looking at it from her point of view, understood why she kept it a secret and forgave her for lying and still wanted to marry her?

If he did, good for him. But if he left him, I would also understand that he didn't like being lied to, wouldn't you?

Either way, were I to be in your hypothetical situation; for me it would not be a deal breaker to learn that she did not have the right internal equipment with which to bear children. There are many children in foster care and orphanages who need loving parents.

You don't need to be married to a transwoman to adopt kids.

 

[Retro Rob]

Actually there's worlds of difference between chocolate-dipped dogshit and someone who's undergone sexual reassignment. People don't undergo sexual reassignment lightly, nor do the psychologists and doctors who will be involved.

Our bodies and minds are complicated, and what goes on at a molecular level when fetuses are growing doesn't always end up being a physical/emotional/psychological male or female. And I wouldn't by thought or deed deny someone the opportunity or right to be the person they truly are; to do so would be, imo, evil.

There is no doubt the process is hard, draining, and stressful on family and friends...that part, I am sympathetic to. But I wasn't talking about that.

The end result, mind you, is changing whatever biologically defines us as male/females and basically calling it something else.

All I was saying, sir.

 

[alzan]

If he did, good for him. But if he left him, I would also understand that he didn't like being lied to, wouldn't you?



You don't need to be married to a transwoman to adopt kids.

I would understand that as well.

True, I wasn't trying to limit adoptions. Had my wife and not married late in life and taken on the responsibility of housing and caring for her sister we would have adopted.