That's why most chokeholds don't bother trying to restrict airflow, they cut off circulation to the brain. You can make someone pass out in less than 10 seconds if you cut off blood to the brain.
Useless stat is useless. How many times did the GJ fail to indict a cop who was suspected of using deadly force through a choke (or heck any deadly force) hold on a suspect?
Sorry if I don't think that stats for all instances don't apply to every instance. I prefer that stats for specific instances be applied as they are more telling.
I am not shocked that when confronted with contrary information your response is to then make a demand for information you know doesn't exist.
It is abundantly clear to any reasonable person that when you have an indictment rate of over 99.9% that the standard is pretty goddamn low. In fact, the indictment rate of grand juries is a running joke because it is so ludicrously high.
As I am not shocked that you use generalizations as "contrary information" to make specific claims or claims about specific instances.
/facepalm.
Seriously, sad.
So was this a chokehold again then?
/facepalm.
Seriously, sad.
Again, if you want to argue that the officer put his arm around Garner's neck as he clearly did in the video and you have determined he had no intent to restrict either breathing or blood flow to such a certainty as to not even issue an indictment, which once again is an EXTREMELY low standard... uhmm... okay.
-snip-
At first I thought this was a clear cut case of abuse. I'm changing to neutral after some new info and watching the vid again. I've heard:
1. The Medical Examiner's report did not find asphyxiation to be the cause of death. Further, there was no damage to man's trachea/windpipe.
2. The officer did NOT use a choke hold as has been reported repeatedly. Grabbing someone around the head/neck area is not a choke hold. A choke hold, while being around the head/neck area, is a very specific maneuver and this isn't one. This grab around the neck is supposedly NOT against police policy.
3. I rewatched the vid and the so-called "choke hold" was applied for a very brief period of time. I don't have a clock with seconds displayed, but I'm guessing around 10 seconds. If you're being choked you can't say "I can't breath" 11 times. If you can't breath you can't say it 11 times either. Furthermore, it was only after the "choke hold" was released that the man started complaining of trouble breathing.
4. This type of police 'take down' of those resisting is policy and is done thousands of times a year in NY. People very rarely die or suffer serious injuries. This death of a suspect is a unique case.
5. While I never saw any reason to believe this arrest was racially motivated recent information suggests claims of racism to be baseless. The police responded to continued complaints by merchants in the area, many of whom are Black. The man was harassing customers and driving away business was the complaint (of course selling cigs without a license is illegal).
The police chief approved the use of police resources to respond to the complaints about this man. The police chief is Black.
The ranking officer on scene in charge was a Black police officer.
I haven't confirmed the above info as reported on cable is correct (I doubt some of it can be as GJ proceedings are sealed) but if accurate I believe the GJ was correct in not indicting.
It may just be that this guy died primarily because of his terrible health (heart problem, asthma, obesity etc) A review of M.E.'s report would be ideal, but since it was a G.J. proceeding we may never see it.
Fern
Sorry, the all swans are white argument sucks.
§ 121.11 Criminal obstruction of breathing or blood circulation
A person is guilty of criminal obstruction of breathing or blood circulation when, with intent to impede the normal breathing or circulation of the blood of another person, he or she:
a. applies pressure on the throat or neck of such person; or
b. blocks the nose or mouth of such person.
Criminal obstruction of breathing or blood circulation is a class A misdemeanor.
None of us can know the intent.
But acquiring a grip around some one's head/neck is very effective in taking them down. This is down frequently in sports such as wrestling because the body will follow the direction the head is forced to. This is well known and is likely taught to officers attempting to take down a resisting suspect. I.e., the intent was to get him to the ground as quickly as possible, not impair his breathing or blood flow.
I kindly ask that you re-watch the when you have the opportunity. See if you also find that:
1. The "choke hold" was applied for a very brief period of time.
2. It was only after the 'choke hold" was released that the man claimed he had trouble breathing.
3. It appears the complaint about breathing was a result of police officers' weight upon his body when he was in the prone position. I.e., the police officers' weight 'crushing' him.
If so, and aside from the argument as to whether this was actually even a choke hold, the "choke hold" had nothing to with his death. Thus the problem here appears to be misdiagnosed (as is often the case).
Fern
You must have watched Hannity. Please describe what an actual choke hold is vs. just an arm around the neck.
No, haven't seen Hanity. Not sure why he'd be relevant. I suspect people in his line of work do not employ choke holds etc.
The choke hold is specifically designed to cut off the blood to the brain. Accordingly, pressure is applied to the side of the neck, not the front. In a proper choke hold breathing is largely unaffected. I guess that makes the name "choke hold' inaccurate, but what's new?
Anyone who is a frequent viewer of MMA should be acquainted with the choke hold as they are often employed as a submission technique. No one has ever died in MMA as the result of a choke hold, even when held until the opponent is unconscious.
Fern
You've now stooped to attacking the principle of inductive reasoning instead of just admitting that the standard for grand jury indictment is really low. And here I thought you claimed to be a scientist, haha.
Just to make sure we are all on the same page as to the offense under discussion it is this:
§ 121.11 Criminal obstruction of breathing or blood circulation
A person is guilty of criminal obstruction of breathing or blood circulation when, with intent to impede the normal breathing or circulation of the blood of another person, he or she:
a. applies pressure on the throat or neck of such person; or
b. blocks the nose or mouth of such person.
Criminal obstruction of breathing or blood circulation is a class A misdemeanor.
I think we might not be.
The choke hold is specifically designed to cut off the blood to the brain. Accordingly, pressure is applied to the side of the neck, not the front. In a proper choke hold breathing is largely unaffected. I guess that makes the name "choke hold' inaccurate, but what's new?
Anyone who is a frequent viewer of MMA should be acquainted with the choke hold as they are often employed as a submission technique. No one has ever died in MMA as the result of a choke hold, even when held until the opponent is unconscious.
Fern
What if the cops choked your son/brother/uncle to death? Will you still rabidly defend what is and is not a choke hold? Shouldn't there at least be a trial to sort shit out?
To not even indict the cop is a fucking joke.
That's where my confusion on why people are calling this a choke hold comes from. I thought those were strangleholds or even blood holds as we called them back in my martial arts days. A choke hold was just a matter of grabbing the neck, but not to cut off circulation.
I would like to see the evidence that the Grand Jury had access to in this case as there may be evidence that shows the choke hold was not the cause of death. It only takes 12 of 23 jurors to decide on a "True bill", there has to be something that made them decide that.
Well eski, I see you're back to your usual tactic of dragging the debate into the far edges of the topic. So far as to be irrelevant.
A man died here and you want to divert the focus to an argument about a class A misdemeanor?
You are correct in that we are not on the "same page". Hell, we're not in the book or library.
Fern
They should also know this as well.
If you can't breathe, its rather difficult to scream that you can't.
I've seen this claim numerous times. It is false.
Speaking requires an exhalation of air not inhalation. Foe examples if your chest is being compressed you will be able to speak as long as the air in your lungs lasts. You cannot inhale therefore you can't breath.
Tried this last night don't try at home. Take a small plastic bag. Place it over your head and seal at the neck. I was able to talk but could not inhale. If that condition lasts long enough you will lose consciousness.
You mean evidence that would outweigh the autopsy results?
"Eric Garner, 43, died after being placed in a chokehold that caused him to suffer neck and chest compressions during his arrest two weeks ago in the Tompkinsville section of Staten Island, according to findings released by the New York City medical examiners office. Garners weight, chronic asthma and cardiovascular disease were listed as contributing factors."
http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-garner-homicide-20140801-story.html
The forbidden chokehold used by a cop to take down a Staten Island man in a deadly encounter Thursday did not damage his windpipe or neck bones, sources said.
The preliminary autopsy findings could be welcome news for Police Officer Daniel Pantaleo, now named as the cop who wrapped his arm around Eric Garners throat while trying to *arrest him.
If youre the defense counsel in this case, this is very good news, because its consistent with what appears to be the case that they didnt mean to hurt him, said John Jay College of Criminal Justice Professor Eugene ODonnell.
But a source close to the Medical Examiners investigation said coroners are also investigating whether the chokehold still contributed to Garners death by aggravating his pre-existing conditions of obesity, asthma and possible heart disease. He died of cardiac arrest in the ambulance on the way to the hospital.
If an obese person with co-existing medical problems cant get good oxygenation to begin with, then a chokehold could put him over the edge, and lead to a homicide finding, the source said.
Sorry, I don't get it. How does one have enough air to waste on shouting but not on living? Also, how is a cop supposed to be able to make a judgment on weather or not a person is getting enough air to live especially when that person is yelling at them?
If someone is yelling at me, I'm not too concerned about their oxygen supply.
You mean evidence that would outweigh the autopsy results?
"Eric Garner, 43, died after being placed in a chokehold that caused him to suffer neck and chest compressions during his arrest two weeks ago in the Tompkinsville section of Staten Island, according to findings released by the New York City medical examiner’s office. Garner’s weight, chronic asthma and cardiovascular disease were listed as contributing factors."
http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-garner-homicide-20140801-story.html