man dies after NYPD cop puts him in chokehold

[wetech]

There have been numerous studies showing the inherent bias towards people of color. U of Chicago even did a first person shooter test with the same results. There were measured physical response differences when targets were black vs white.

If you're referring to the same study that I recall being reported, there was a mix of participants from civilians and police. And while there were indications of people making more mistakes while the target was black, the police participants were able to make the right call at a higher % than the civilian participants. There was actually a small (few ms) extra delay on the decision making of the officers. The suggestion was that training kicked in and overwrote the "gut" feeling that the civilians were reacting on.

 

[QueBert]

Is this thread still a thing? I can't believe people are protesting this. America has an odd obsession for saying and embracing things that are the exact opposite of the truth. Its this contrarian attitude, or political correctness that America is obsessed with. When did embracing the truth become rude or unfashionable?

A giant man resists arrest. He is tackled. He dies from health issues. This is racism? Clearly it isn't, so the right thing to do is to claim racism, according to people who hate truth and love the false. Backwards America. Fucking odd.

Too many gun deaths in America? Give Americans more guns.

Crime problem in America? Crucify the cops, defend the criminals.

Bad economy in America? Pay people to not work.

Muslims hate America? Bomb Muslim countries.

Poor education in America? Make college expensive. Cut public education spending.

Too much cancer in America? Defend tobacco, destroy E-cigs.

Racism in America? Vote in black president? Wait, this one doesn't fit. Oh wait, maybe it does. Fuck it. Who knows anymore.

He died from being choked. Not saying he didn't have health issues but they didn't cause his death. In the video he looked pretty damn healthy before the illegal choke was placed on him

 

[Londo_Jowo]

He died from being choked. Not saying he didn't have health issues but they didn't cause his death. In the video he looked pretty damn healthy before the illegal choke was placed on him

Really? According to the ME, he died of cardiac arrest in the ambulance.

 

[shady28]

Really? According to the ME, he died of cardiac arrest in the ambulance.

That said, the coroner did clearly state that the police killed him. I don't think it really matters so much how.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...d-homicide-medical-examiner-article-1.1888808

"The autopsy also found that compressions to the chest and “prone positioning during physical restraint by police” killed Garner. The manner of death, according to the medical examiner, was homicide."


Here's an example of ad-libbing by the press. The coroner did not say chokehold, Slate did. Compare to the above quote :

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_..._the_nypd_officer_wasn_t_indicted_in_the.html


"“compression of neck (chokehold), compression of chest, and prone positioning during physical restraint by police.”


EDIT : So I should probably point out, with all the versions of this statement in the press, nobody knows what the actual coroner report says. As usual, the media is slimy and manipulative all around.

 

[z1ggy]

My g/f who lives in NYC won't be able to leave tonight because protesters' goal is to "shut the city down".

I'm all for protest over something like this, where the police were clearly wrong, but it's total sh!t that it's now effecting people's lives who had nothing to do with it.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

That said, the coroner did clearly state that the police killed him. I don't think it really matters so much how.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...d-homicide-medical-examiner-article-1.1888808

"The autopsy also found that compressions to the chest and “prone positioning during physical restraint by police” killed Garner. The manner of death, according to the medical examiner, was homicide."


Here's an example of ad-libbing by the press. The coroner did not say chokehold, Slate did. Compare to the above quote :

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_..._the_nypd_officer_wasn_t_indicted_in_the.html


"“compression of neck (chokehold), compression of chest, and prone positioning during physical restraint by police.”


EDIT : So I should probably point out, with all the versions of this statement in the press, nobody knows what the actual coroner report says. As usual, the media is slimy and manipulative all around.

Yep, same with the report from "sources" which stated that there was no damage to his throat, that medical conditions plus the choke hold made issues worse but also stated that he died in the ambulance on the way to the hospital. It's truly a shame that they can release the autopsy so it would put all of this to rest and remove the ability of the media putting their spin on what their "sources" have divulged to them.

http://nypost.com/2014/07/19/man-in-chokehold-death-had-no-throat-damage-autopsy/

The forbidden chokehold used by a cop to take down a Staten Island man in a deadly encounter Thursday did not damage his windpipe or neck bones, sources said.
The preliminary autopsy findings could be welcome news for Police Officer Daniel Pantaleo, now named as the cop who wrapped his arm around Eric Garner’s throat while trying to *arrest him.
“If you’re the defense counsel in this case, this is very good news, because it’s consistent with what appears to be the case — that they didn’t mean to hurt him,” said John Jay College of Criminal Justice Professor Eugene O’Donnell.
But a source close to the Medical Examiner’s investigation said coroners are also investigating whether the chokehold still contributed to Garner’s death by aggravating his pre-existing conditions of obesity, asthma and possible heart disease. He died of cardiac arrest in the ambulance on the way to the hospital.
“If an obese person with co-existing medical problems can’t get good oxygenation to begin with, then a chokehold could put him over the edge,” and lead to a homicide finding, the source said.

 

[ivwshane]

This happens all the time. Kids playing wrestling accidentally kill their little brother / friend / whatever. Should those kids be charged with murder? Of course not!



The part that should have been criminally investigated and went to a GJ were the paramedics who refused to render aid. That is negligence.

You missed the point. The poster I was responding to said he didn't die from the chokehold, he died from other causes. I highlighted his stupidity by showing how someone who is cut isn't killed right away but is killed from the affects of his injury (ie bleeding out).

 

[lotus503]

clear case of excessive force, leading to negligent homicide. Now that may not be the correct legal interpretation of what occurred.

But that's really the issue, if its not correct then the law needs to change.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

So if a man dies of a heart attack an hour after shoveling snow was it the shoveling snow that caused the death? Or was it more likely the person had clogged/restricted arteries and/or heart disease that resulted in the death due to the physical exertion while shoveling the snow?

I don't believe the choke hold is what killed Eric Garner, I believe the struggle that occurred when he was being arrested set off a chain of events that resulted in cardiac arrest and that was the cause of his death.

I have to suspect that similar reasoning is what resulted in the Grand Jury making their "No Bill" decision.

 

[werepossum]

I'm not at all familiar with NYPD's precise wording on choke holds. But if there's a single hair-splitting technical "stay out of jail" clause that the officer who applied the hold could use to get out from under the no choke hold policy, IMO, that would be it, improperly applied or not.

I completely agree with you that the arrest was a classic FUBAR from the get-go to the tragic conclusion, including the no indictment decision. Logic clearly points that out.

The only possible relief I can think of from my unqualified point of view is for the victim's family getting an armored car load of $$$ from filing a wrongful death suit.

Yep, but that's cold comfort for the unnecessary loss of a loved one.

Saying they applied a sleeper hold instead of a chokehold would have no bearing making it a "stay out of jail" technicality. Neither one of them were authorized techniques by NYPD. In either case, the officer failed to follow policy. However, failing to follow policy does not mean illegal. At this point, the officer will face administrative consequences for not following procedure.

- Merg

Outside of government service, "administrative consequences for not following procedure" is called "an involuntary paid vacation".

black guy can't even purchase a watch in a store without being questioned/detained. Even if he is well dressed, well spoken and a person of means. You know not "thug looking"

Also fair warning, if you are black and want to go to a store to purchase a bb gun take a white friend.

Um, a white guy looking like a thug is also going to get questioned trying to buy an expensive watch, and a black guy who is well dressed, well spoken and not "thug looking" is not going to be questioned unless there is a local problem with such men stealing watches. People selling watches want to sell watches, not be social injustice warriors.

And sorry, but if you take only one white friend he will be considered a hostage. For your own safely, always travel only inside a cluster of white folks. Luckily for you there's a lot of us and we work cheap. Of course, we have a lot of Hispanics and they work even cheaper. But most of them are 5' tall which exposes you to a head shot. (This is law enforcement jargon meaning a volley of several dozen shots, one of which might strike the black man's head.)

 

[Bird222]

Really? According to the ME, he died of cardiac arrest in the ambulance.

You and others in this thread need to look up the term 'proximate cause'.

 

[jhbball]

So if a man dies of a heart attack an hour after shoveling snow was it the shoveling snow that caused the death? Or was it more likely the person had clogged/restricted arteries and/or heart disease that resulted in the death due to the physical exertion while shoveling the snow?

I don't believe the choke hold is what killed Eric Garner, I believe the struggle that occurred when he was being arrested set off a chain of events that resulted in cardiac arrest and that was the cause of his death.

I have to suspect that similar reasoning is what resulted in the Grand Jury making their "No Bill" decision.

LOL, this guy.

 

[HomerJS]

Yep, but that's cold comfort for the unnecessary loss of a loved one.


Outside of government service, "administrative consequences for not following procedure" is called "an involuntary paid vacation".


Um, a white guy looking like a thug is also going to get questioned trying to buy an expensive watch, and a black guy who is well dressed, well spoken and not "thug looking" is not going to be questioned unless there is a local problem with such men stealing watches. People selling watches want to sell watches, not be social injustice warriors.

And sorry, but if you take only one white friend he will be considered a hostage. For your own safely, always travel only inside a cluster of white folks. Luckily for you there's a lot of us and we work cheap. Of course, we have a lot of Hispanics and they work even cheaper. But most of them are 5' tall which exposes you to a head shot. (This is law enforcement jargon meaning a volley of several dozen shots, one of which might strike the black man's head.)

The black man trying to buy a watch was a well dressed well spoken actor of means. Google "Macys", "Treme", "black", "arrest"

 

[Moonbeam]

LOL, this guy.

How are we going to improve with evolution if the weak don't die when arrested. If anything, they should be beaten while cuffed on the ground.

Is he dead yet???????

 

[bshole]

Outside of government service, "administrative consequences for not following procedure" is called "an involuntary paid vacation".

Man that sounds brutal.

 

[NeoV]

I think the lack of care given to him, while laying on the ground, is at least as offensive as the tactics the police used that lead to him being there.

 

[senseamp]

NYPD is going to get sued for a lot of money.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

NYPD is going to get sued for a lot of money.

Indeed they are and ever-rightfully so. I sincerely hope they get millions.

 

[bshole]

Indeed they are and ever-rightfully so. I sincerely hope they get millions.

I think you are mistaken if you believe that will do anything to fix the problem. NYPD is happy for the city to write checks to shut up victims.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/08/31/3477604/ferguson-lawsuit-expensive-police-misconduct/

New York City, where the nation’s largest police department has become notorious for its abuses, paid out nearly $350 million in civil rights damages in this time period. The police officers at fault contributed a total of $114,000 to those settlements. In the smaller jurisdictions, the study found that officers contributed nothing toward the settlements — even when they had been criminally prosecuted, fired, or disciplined in some way.

What’s more, these cases hardly even affect the police department’s budget. The study noted that settlements usually come out of the city’s general fund or an insurer, while police budgets stay relatively stable. Many municipal governments don’t keep comprehensive records of lawsuits against police, or track what kinds of abuses and which officers show up in complaints.

 

[Fern]

-snip-
I don't believe the choke hold is what killed Eric Garner, I believe the struggle that occurred when he was being arrested set off a chain of events that resulted in cardiac arrest and that was the cause of his death.

I have to suspect that similar reasoning is what resulted in the Grand Jury making their "No Bill" decision.

^This^

The so-called choke hold lasted a grand total of 13 seconds (begins at 1:21 and is released at 1:34). The M.E. says no damage resulted and the guy was speaking after it was released.

The police on top of him and the knee in his face/neck as well as his numerous health problems look to be the cause here. But a newspaper headline "cops sitting on 400lb man during arrest result in death" just doesn't have the same pizzaz as claiming a choke hold killed him.

There have been a zillion actual cop take downs shown on TV. This look no worse, and in fact better, than most of those. Heck, I've seen guys who didn't resist get taken down harder. I didn't see him get punched or his arms twisted etc. There is nothing unusual here other than the man's poor health.

With his poor health what would have happened had the cops tried a nonlethal tool like a taser, just once? I bet he'd still be dead.

As I've said many times here, even recently, LE procedures need to be re-visited and police should be worried more about protecting us than saving their own butts. But this a poor example to make into your poster child.

The 12 yr old gunned down is another matter altogether. The elderly man shot and killed in his own bed when the police executed a no-knock warrant based on a bogus drug tip is another good example. OTOH, he was white.

Fern

 

[xBiffx]

So if a man dies of a heart attack an hour after shoveling snow was it the shoveling snow that caused the death? Or was it more likely the person had clogged/restricted arteries and/or heart disease that resulted in the death due to the physical exertion while shoveling the snow?

I don't believe the choke hold is what killed Eric Garner, I believe the struggle that occurred when he was being arrested set off a chain of events that resulted in cardiac arrest and that was the cause of his death.

I have to suspect that similar reasoning is what resulted in the Grand Jury making their "No Bill" decision.

This.

NYPD is going to get sued for a lot of money.

And this.

 

[xBiffx]

You and others in this thread need to look up the term 'proximate cause'.

Which is why there will be no criminal charges, but civil charges will likely follow. There was no intent to kill this man, therefore there was no crime according to the law. Yes, the actions of the police likely lead to his death, but that doesn't mean that a crime was committed.

Anyone, including police, can be in a situation where their actions caused the death of someone however they are not guilty of a crime just because that person died.

 

[BoberFett]

So if a man dies of a heart attack an hour after shoveling snow was it the shoveling snow that caused the death? Or was it more likely the person had clogged/restricted arteries and/or heart disease that resulted in the death due to the physical exertion while shoveling the snow?

I don't believe the choke hold is what killed Eric Garner, I believe the struggle that occurred when he was being arrested set off a chain of events that resulted in cardiac arrest and that was the cause of his death.

I have to suspect that similar reasoning is what resulted in the Grand Jury making their "No Bill" decision.

The person who sets off a chain of events during the commission of another crime can be charged with a crime for the end result of that chain.

If you rob a bank and during the holdup some old person dies of a heart attack from seeing you wave a gun around, you as a citizen WILL be charged with murder.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Which is why there will be no criminal charges, but civil charges will likely follow. There was no intent to kill this man, therefore there was no crime according to the law. Yes, the actions of the police likely lead to his death, but that doesn't mean that a crime was committed.

Anyone, including police, can be in a situation where their actions caused the death of someone however they are not guilty of a crime just because that person died.

so you're saying he could be charged with criminally negligent homicide??

(Criminally negligent manslaughter is variously referred to as criminally negligent homicide in the United States, and gross negligence manslaughter in England and Wales. In Scotland and some Commonwealth of Nations jurisdictions the offence of culpable homicide might apply.

It occurs where death results from serious negligence, or, in some jurisdictions, serious recklessness. A high degree of negligence is required to warrant criminal liability.[8] A related concept is that of willful blindness, which is where a defendant intentionally puts himself in a position where he will be unaware of facts which would render him liable.

Criminally negligent manslaughter occurs where there is an omission to act when there is a duty to do so, or a failure to perform a duty owed, which leads to a death. The existence of the duty is essential because the law does not impose criminal liability for a failure to act unless a specific duty is owed to the victim. It is most common in the case of professionals who are grossly negligent in the course of their employment. An example is where a doctor fails to notice a patient's oxygen supply has disconnected and the patient dies)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter#Criminally_negligent_manslaughter

 

[xBiffx]

If you rob a bank and during the holdup some old person dies of a heart attack from seeing you wave a gun around, you as a citizen WILL be charged with murder.

Perhaps charged, but a conviction for murder is doubtful. Lookup Larry Whitfield. The exact situation you speculated on is what happened to him.