Man Shot in London

[magomago]

Originally posted by: irwincur

You don't have to be an asshat about everything. There are many reasons someone might run from the police. Maybe he had an outstanding warrant, maybe he was just afraid, maybe he stole a purse ... or maybe he was wearing a bomb.

Sorry, but this is the wrong time to be wearing a winter coat with wires hanging out of it. Not to mention running through a station.

If this guy was joking, he still deserved to get shot. I suspect he was not, and he got exactly what he deserved.



Onto the real subject. It seems as if there was a series of planned events and there may be more coming. The explosives in the second attempt did seem to match those in the first. So Britain has some real issues with a possibly large group of militants.

Time for them to actually start cracking down. Even Musharref (sp) told Blair that it is time that Britain looks inside for their problems. Granted, a lot of the bombers are trained in Pakistan, but there is definitely a support network in Britain - a strong one at that.

Europe needs to be on alert. I suspect that these types of attacks will begin occuring all over the place. Europe for too long has allowed too many Mulsims in while not attempting at all to help them assimilate.

That is the one thing the US does have going for it. Muslim immigrants do well here on average, and assimilate well. Successful people are usually much less willing to blow themselves up. This is a reason why Al Queda has had a difficult time actually recruiting insiders here - every known attempt has been met with failure.

What is your definition of assimilation?

Well I don't think we can talk about "Muslim Immigration" as that encompasses WAY to many countries, but we can talk about Arab Immigration

Arabs who immigrate to Europe are largely refugees of a sort, or extremely poor people looking for a better life. Arabs who immigrate to the USA are usually middle class to START with, and often start here as students.
And what is your definition of assimilation? Just curious because usually people have different opinioins. MANY arab house holds I've visited on the inside are very traditional, parents speak only to arabic with their kids, the only TV they have is satellite with Arab channels (and loads of Chinese and Farsi I might add )...they fit into our society mainly because I don't think we "assimlate" them to the way that Europeans want to assimilate them. To Europe, they expect them to shed old cultural ways, and adopt the culture of their specific country...youi speak [insert_language] rather than your native language, etc. Basically to make the person a dutch/french/bla in every aspect save for skin color.
We don't expect that here, and it works out for the better~ Though the fact that poor Arabs can't come to the USA also plays a role (or so I think)

 

[Mirko]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co...cle/2005/07/22/AR2005072200518_pf.html

He vaulted over barriers chased by armed police, stumbled onto a train and then the man in a winter coat with a backpack was shot time and again, sending panic-stricken commuters in all directions.

Sky Television quoted police as saying the man was a suspect in the attacks that caused chaos Thursday lunchtime but killed no one in an apparently failed bid to repeat suicide bombings which left 52 dead two weeks earlier.

He raised suspicion wearing a bulky black coat in the heat of summer. Most said he wore a backpack -- reminding many of images of the four suicide bombers behind the July 7 attacks.

 

[imported_hscorpio]

Originally posted by: irwincur
Europe for too long has allowed too many Mulsims in while not attempting at all to help them assimilate.

I think most immigrants do not want to assimilate. They do it out of necessity to fit in with the majority culture they are now living with. If there are enough immigrants to form their own little community then the need to assimilate goes down. I think that is the problem Europe has, they allowed so many in and now large Muslim communities are kind of self-efficient meaning they don't have to assimilate.

That is the one thing the US does have going for it. Muslim immigrants do well here on average, and assimilate well. Successful people are usually much less willing to blow themselves up. This is a reason why Al Queda has had a difficult time actually recruiting insiders here - every known attempt has been met with failure.

Good point. Perhaps US muslims are more assimilated because they have to be. They don't have as large of an enclosed community to isolate themselves in here.

 

[Mirko]

AIM WAS TO ARREST MAN

Specialist officers had been tailing the man shot at Stockwell Tube station from his home, says Sky News Crime Correspondent Martin Brunt.

Police believed the Asian man was responsible for an attempted attack on the nearby Oval Tube on Thursday and had set up surveillance on him.

Brunt said officers had followed the man from his home and that the initial plan was to arrest him.

But from his home to Stockwell Tube, events overtook police and marksmen were forced to shoot.

 

[Zedtom]

When all the facts are sorted out, the people of Great Britain should prepare themselves for the enactment of laws similar to the Patriot Act here in the US.

The authorities are going to need the power to investigate every possible angle when looking at suspects of terrorism.

I have mixed feelings about the erosion of our civil liberties both here and in the UK, but this intimidation is getting out of hand.

 

[PatboyX]

Originally posted by: ahurtt

Originally posted by: PatboyX
should probably comment more in OP otherwise, thread may get locked.

on topic: it seems like they had him down and almost in custody when they shot him five times. i guess if he was a bomber, he may have the power to detonate.

Negative. If he had the power to detonate, then why didn't he rather than lead the police on a chase? There are 2 possible answers which seem most likely to me. 1) he had no bomb or 2) he had a bomb but was unable to detonate it at will (on a timer).
But it seems to me if he had the power to detonate the bomb willingly, he would have rather than risk capture. Or maybe a third possibility is he was just a wierdo with a heavy coat who couldn't speak English and was afraid for his life. Ironically as events turned out, he was right to fear for his life. He could have also been trying to commit suicide by police as some people do. Or maybe he was just really a bomber who got caught. Time will tell I guess. I'm leaning toward him having been up to something no good.

BBC on NPR this morning had some reports from commuters. one guy said that the jacket-man looked like a scared rabbit. a police officer suggested a little later that when combating these types of criminals, they are educated to the understanding that you must go for head shots, otherwise you may detonate the explosives or give him an opportunity to detonate.

on zedtoms point: i was under the impression that GB had more liberties in investigations.

 

[ahurtt]

Originally posted by: Zedtom
When all the facts are sorted out, the people of Great Britain should prepare themselves for the enactment of laws similar to the Patriot Act here in the US.

The authorities are going to need the power to investigate every possible angle when looking at suspects of terrorism.

I have mixed feelings about the erosion of our civil liberties both here and in the UK, but this intimidation is getting out of hand.

Freedom has never come without sacrifice. If some liberties have to be infringed upon, I am willing to deal with that. If you are innocent and have nothing to hide, you might be inconvenienced but things will be worked out. The Patriot Act has not made a single bit of difference in my life for the worse since its enactment and I'd wager that for the average American citizen who has nothing to hide, it is the same. No system is perfect and there will be screw ups from time to time, sure. But if you really have nothing to hide, things will get straightened out. Times are changing. Most people are way too sensitive about what they consider to be "private" anyway. . .They have no problem loudly airing their personal grievances and daily life details on cell phones in loud outdoor conversational tones in public places annoying those around them with the details of their mundane lives. . .but the thought that the FBI or somebody could be listening in to them is too much to imagine. People need to get real and stop being so damn indignant if an authority asks to look in their bag.

[Edit] It's funny really. . .next time you see somebody carrying on on their cell phone in a public place, act like you are attentively paying attention to what they are saying and watch how indignant they get.

 

[irwincur]

OK, by assimilate I meant both integrate into overall society as well as offering equal opportunity.

Muslims in Europe are not given equal opportunity. They are the least educated, the lowest paid, the by far have the highest unemployment numbers. There is a pervasive yet unspoken racism in Europe, and always has been. Every new group trying to get into Europe is met with disregard and a cold shoulder.

Not the mention the brilliance of simply moving the Muslim population into ghettos. Just saw an interview with a woman in Pakistan today - whe was amazed that Leeds in the UK (almost 100% Pakistani) looked no different than a typical ghetto in Pakistan. She thought that the Pakistanis in England were better of than they were - the fact is, they are not and this is a major problem.

The US learned these lessons with blacks and the old housing projects. Secluding people is not the solution to any problem. In the long run it leads to huge issues. Luckily here we got off with a few large riots. Sure, there are still large projects, but that whole frame of thinking has definitely drifted by the wayside. Europe has a much, much larger scale issue, and the end result is going to be a complete disaster - for everyone involved.

It seems for all of the social consciousness of Europe, they really only care about themselves and their own kind... That right there is progressive liberalism.

 

[ExpertNovice]

Originally posted by: ahurtt

Originally posted by: PatboyX
should probably comment more in OP otherwise, thread may get locked.

on topic: it seems like they had him down and almost in custody when they shot him five times. i guess if he was a bomber, he may have the power to detonate.

Negative. If he had the power to detonate, then why didn't he rather than lead the police on a chase? There are 2 possible answers which seem most likely to me. 1) he had no bomb or 2) he had a bomb but was unable to detonate it at will (on a timer).
But it seems to me if he had the power to detonate the bomb willingly, he would have rather than risk capture. Or maybe a third possibility is he was just a wierdo with a heavy coat who couldn't speak English and was afraid for his life. Ironically as events turned out, he was right to fear for his life. He could have also been trying to commit suicide by police as some people do. Or maybe he was just really a bomber who got caught. Time will tell I guess. I'm leaning toward him having been up to something no good.

Consider other known information; several other bombs failed to detonate. In some of the cases only the detonator exploded.

Maybe he did try to detonate the bomb and it failed.

edited. I was trying to use sarcasm to add humor. My attempt failed and it came out as belittling. No one has yet posted, if you read my original... I apologize.

 

[ExpertNovice]

Originally posted by: hscorpio
Do most London police officers carry guns? I thought they didn't, untill now.

They didn't carry guns for most of history. You may have heard that owning guns and even defending yourself have been made illegal in Britain. For some reason this only disarmed the honest citizen and crime began to escalate. It was not long before the Bobbies felt unsafe and SOME began carrying guns.

I don't know if it is most of them or not at this point. When this was discussed with some anti-gun Brits they said it was only some specially trained Bobbies.

 

[CaptnKirk]

Not a Bomber

News coming real slowly, deep investigation.

 

[Forsythe]

Originally posted by: irwincur
OK, by assimilate I meant both integrate into overall society as well as offering equal opportunity.

Muslims in Europe are not given equal opportunity. They are the least educated, the lowest paid, the by far have the highest unemployment numbers. There is a pervasive yet unspoken racism in Europe, and always has been. Every new group trying to get into Europe is met with disregard and a cold shoulder.

Not the mention the brilliance of simply moving the Muslim population into ghettos. Just saw an interview with a woman in Pakistan today - whe was amazed that Leeds in the UK (almost 100% Pakistani) looked no different than a typical ghetto in Pakistan. She thought that the Pakistanis in England were better of than they were - the fact is, they are not and this is a major problem.

The US learned these lessons with blacks and the old housing projects. Secluding people is not the solution to any problem. In the long run it leads to huge issues. Luckily here we got off with a few large riots. Sure, there are still large projects, but that whole frame of thinking has definitely drifted by the wayside. Europe has a much, much larger scale issue, and the end result is going to be a complete disaster - for everyone involved.

It seems for all of the social consciousness of Europe, they really only care about themselves and their own kind... That right there is progressive liberalism.

You need to get a few facts straight:

There has been attempts for many years to "assimilate" muslim immigrants, but it's a long process, and since new people arrive all the time, you never end. And it's still running.

There's loads of xenophobia in europe, as there is in the rest of the world. But the immigrants have it aswell, it's not only us europeans fault, but their "fault" aswell, which, not they, we should correct for them. It's not rascim, it's fear of the unknown.

The immigrants themselves choose to move to ghettos because that's where they find people of their own kind. In denmark we are talking about moving them with force to area's where there are "normal" people (danes).

We do not only care for ourselves, it's just nearly impossible to do something about. They have an entirely different culture, a very very dominant father role (just like you like it (irwin), that's one of the problems, they simply don't know how to raise their kids. That lash out on liberalism is absolute bull. It's humans.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
Not a Bomber

News coming real slowly, deep investigation.

They haven't specifically stated he was not a bomber. He just wasn't one of the 4 identified from yesterday.

Supposedly the police were already had this guy under surveillance and had followed him from the time he left his house.

 

[CaptnKirk]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
Not a Bomber

News coming real slowly, deep investigation.

They haven't specifically stated he was not a bomber. He just wasn't one of the 4 identified from yesterday.

Supposedly the police were already had this guy under surveillance and had followed him from the time he left his house.

So . . .
all I did was put up an update.

I made no comment, why are you trying to dispute a news release ?

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
Not a Bomber

News coming real slowly, deep investigation.

They haven't specifically stated he was not a bomber. He just wasn't one of the 4 identified from yesterday.

Supposedly the police were already had this guy under surveillance and had followed him from the time he left his house.

So . . .
all I did was put up an update.

I made no comment, why are you trying to dispute a news release ?

I'm not disputing the news release, I'm disputing your title of the link. It was a bit misleading - "Not a bomber". I merely provided a clarification precisely becaue you didn't comment. There are people who would look at that, not click on it, and begin to make assumptions that aren't necessarily true.

 

[CaptnKirk]

I'm not disputing the news release, I'm disputing your title of the link. It was a bit misleading

When I copied the headline from REUTERS to make my posting update, I used their current (at that time) link/subject line.

They were/are saying that the man that was killed was not a bomber (right there and then) they didn't speculate on the title . . .
neither did I.

 

[PatboyX]

Originally posted by: Forsythe

Originally posted by: irwincur
OK, by assimilate I meant both integrate into overall society as well as offering equal opportunity.

Muslims in Europe are not given equal opportunity. They are the least educated, the lowest paid, the by far have the highest unemployment numbers. There is a pervasive yet unspoken racism in Europe, and always has been. Every new group trying to get into Europe is met with disregard and a cold shoulder.

Not the mention the brilliance of simply moving the Muslim population into ghettos. Just saw an interview with a woman in Pakistan today - whe was amazed that Leeds in the UK (almost 100% Pakistani) looked no different than a typical ghetto in Pakistan. She thought that the Pakistanis in England were better of than they were - the fact is, they are not and this is a major problem.

The US learned these lessons with blacks and the old housing projects. Secluding people is not the solution to any problem. In the long run it leads to huge issues. Luckily here we got off with a few large riots. Sure, there are still large projects, but that whole frame of thinking has definitely drifted by the wayside. Europe has a much, much larger scale issue, and the end result is going to be a complete disaster - for everyone involved.

It seems for all of the social consciousness of Europe, they really only care about themselves and their own kind... That right there is progressive liberalism.

You need to get a few facts straight:

There has been attempts for many years to "assimilate" muslim immigrants, but it's a long process, and since new people arrive all the time, you never end. And it's still running.

There's loads of xenophobia in europe, as there is in the rest of the world. But the immigrants have it aswell, it's not only us europeans fault, but their "fault" aswell, which, not they, we should correct for them. It's not rascim, it's fear of the unknown.

The immigrants themselves choose to move to ghettos because that's where they find people of their own kind. In denmark we are talking about moving them with force to area's where there are "normal" people (danes).

We do not only care for ourselves, it's just nearly impossible to do something about. They have an entirely different culture, a very very dominant father role (just like you like it (irwin), that's one of the problems, they simply don't know how to raise their kids. That lash out on liberalism is absolute bull. It's humans.

there is tons of literature about various groups attempting to assimilate to the culture in england, particularly london. should check some out.

 

[CaptnKirk]

There has been attempts for many years to "assimilate" muslim immigrants, but it's a long process,

Wasn't Milosovich trying to 'Assimilate' the Muslins in Bosnia ?
Isn't that why we got involved against the Serbs ? - to stop the genocide.

 

[CanOWorms]

assimilation in Europe = concentration camps

 

[CaptnKirk]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
assimilation in Europe = concentration camps

seprately but equaly

 

[BarneyFife]

Originally posted by: irwincur
OK, by assimilate I meant both integrate into overall society as well as offering equal opportunity.

Muslims in Europe are not given equal opportunity. They are the least educated, the lowest paid, the by far have the highest unemployment numbers. There is a pervasive yet unspoken racism in Europe, and always has been. Every new group trying to get into Europe is met with disregard and a cold shoulder.

Not the mention the brilliance of simply moving the Muslim population into ghettos. Just saw an interview with a woman in Pakistan today - whe was amazed that Leeds in the UK (almost 100% Pakistani) looked no different than a typical ghetto in Pakistan. She thought that the Pakistanis in England were better of than they were - the fact is, they are not and this is a major problem.

The US learned these lessons with blacks and the old housing projects. Secluding people is not the solution to any problem. In the long run it leads to huge issues. Luckily here we got off with a few large riots. Sure, there are still large projects, but that whole frame of thinking has definitely drifted by the wayside. Europe has a much, much larger scale issue, and the end result is going to be a complete disaster - for everyone involved.

It seems for all of the social consciousness of Europe, they really only care about themselves and their own kind... That right there is progressive liberalism.

The difference is that the US is full of immigrants. In Italy, their are Italians, in Germany, Germans. They are their own people and don't want strangers intruding in their countries. I don't understand why its so hard for people to understand the difference. If you are Italian, you are going to take care of your own. Not Mohammed and his clan from Yemen.

 

[conjur]

Whoa!!!

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/co...y_page/0,5744,16019385%255E601,00.html

POLICE shot dead a suspected suicide bomber on the London Underground last night, just 24 hours after a bungled second-wave attack on the British capital's transport system.

The man was shot five times by police at almost point-blank range after he jumped on to an open carriage at Stockwell station in south London.

A witness said the man had a bomb strapped to his body.

"He had a bomb belt with wires coming out," Anthony Larkin told BBC.

[...]

Witnesses said the man ran on to a train, police chased him, he tripped and they shot him. The plainclothes officer who shot the man had put his foot on the fugitive's chest before firing into his head. "I saw an Asian guy run on to the train, hotly pursued by three plain-clothes police officers," Mark Whitby told the BBC.

"As he run onto the Tube train he sort of half-tripped. He was hotly pursued by what I just knew to be three plain-clothes police officers. He half-tripped and was half pushed to the floor.

"One of the police officers was holding a black automatic pistol in his left hand. They held it down to him and unloaded five shots into him. I saw it. He's dead. Five shots, seriously he's dead."

 

[ExpertNovice]

Originally posted by: Forsythe

Originally posted by: irwincur
OK, by assimilate I meant both integrate into overall society as well as offering equal opportunity.

Muslims in Europe are not given equal opportunity. They are the least educated, the lowest paid, the by far have the highest unemployment numbers. There is a pervasive yet unspoken racism in Europe, and always has been. Every new group trying to get into Europe is met with disregard and a cold shoulder.

Not the mention the brilliance of simply moving the Muslim population into ghettos. Just saw an interview with a woman in Pakistan today - whe was amazed that Leeds in the UK (almost 100% Pakistani) looked no different than a typical ghetto in Pakistan. She thought that the Pakistanis in England were better of than they were - the fact is, they are not and this is a major problem.

The US learned these lessons with blacks and the old housing projects. Secluding people is not the solution to any problem. In the long run it leads to huge issues. Luckily here we got off with a few large riots. Sure, there are still large projects, but that whole frame of thinking has definitely drifted by the wayside. Europe has a much, much larger scale issue, and the end result is going to be a complete disaster - for everyone involved.

It seems for all of the social consciousness of Europe, they really only care about themselves and their own kind... That right there is progressive liberalism.

You need to get a few facts straight:

There has been attempts for many years to "assimilate" muslim immigrants, but it's a long process, and since new people arrive all the time, you never end. And it's still running.

There's loads of xenophobia in europe, as there is in the rest of the world. But the immigrants have it aswell, it's not only us europeans fault, but their "fault" aswell, which, not they, we should correct for them. It's not rascim, it's fear of the unknown.

The immigrants themselves choose to move to ghettos because that's where they find people of their own kind. In denmark we are talking about moving them with force to area's where there are "normal" people (danes).

We do not only care for ourselves, it's just nearly impossible to do something about. They have an entirely different culture, a very very dominant father role (just like you like it (irwin), that's one of the problems, they simply don't know how to raise their kids. That lash out on liberalism is absolute bull. It's humans.

I like your last two sentences. It summarily explains why liberalism will always pull down a civilization, especially when a large population is concerned. The lazy will always do less because others will do it for them. The dedicated will do less because they get tired of doing everything and being ridiculed. The power hungry will abuse the system in order to gain more power.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: ahurtt

Originally posted by: Zedtom
When all the facts are sorted out, the people of Great Britain should prepare themselves for the enactment of laws similar to the Patriot Act here in the US.

The authorities are going to need the power to investigate every possible angle when looking at suspects of terrorism.

I have mixed feelings about the erosion of our civil liberties both here and in the UK, but this intimidation is getting out of hand.

Freedom has never come without sacrifice. If some liberties have to be infringed upon, I am willing to deal with that. If you are innocent and have nothing to hide, you might be inconvenienced but things will be worked out. The Patriot Act has not made a single bit of difference in my life for the worse since its enactment and I'd wager that for the average American citizen who has nothing to hide, it is the same. No system is perfect and there will be screw ups from time to time, sure. But if you really have nothing to hide, things will get straightened out. Times are changing. Most people are way too sensitive about what they consider to be "private" anyway. . .They have no problem loudly airing their personal grievances and daily life details on cell phones in loud outdoor conversational tones in public places annoying those around them with the details of their mundane lives. . .but the thought that the FBI or somebody could be listening in to them is too much to imagine. People need to get real and stop being so damn indignant if an authority asks to look in their bag.

[Edit] It's funny really. . .next time you see somebody carrying on on their cell phone in a public place, act like you are attentively paying attention to what they are saying and watch how indignant they get.

You could be right, but the real question to be asking isn't whether or not the Patriot Act has had a negative impact on your life, the question is whether or not it has had a positive impact in the war on terror. There is very little data to support this idea, and I tend to think the answer is that it hasn't helped very much. Everything I've seen suggests that our law enforcement agencies don't suffer from not being able to gather enough data, their problem is that they don't know where to direct their search, or they can't put all the pieces together even after they have them.

I could be wrong about this, but assuming that every expansion of police powers helps them do their job isn't a good way to think about it.

 

[irwincur]

Even is this guy was not 'one of the bombers' it seems like they had reason to believe he was 'a bomber'.

Furthermore, as I stated earlier. Right now is not the time to wear a winter coat, avoid police, and run through a station and towards a train. Hate to say it, but based on general principle, he deserved to be shot. If you are really innocent you really need to understand the levels of stress that the police are under, and respect it.