Man Shot in London

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
You could be right, but the real question to be asking isn't whether or not the Patriot Act has had a negative impact on your life, the question is whether or not it has had a positive impact in the war on terror. There is very little data to support this idea, and I tend to think the answer is that it hasn't helped very much. Everything I've seen suggests that our law enforcement agencies don't suffer from not being able to gather enough data, their problem is that they don't know where to direct their search, or they can't put all the pieces together even after they have them.

I could be wrong about this, but assuming that every expansion of police powers helps them do their job isn't a good way to think about it.

1) We are not privy to all information regarding the Act (ie. when /why is has been used)
2) Difficult to prove a negative (ie> The Scott Ritter-IRan situation) If something does not happen, is it because it never would have, or a change of plans was iomplimented to prevent the original event.

3) Given some of the implimentations, certain situations that have occured in the past, may have been able to be prevented under the current implimentation. OThers were people responding to what ifs.

 

[Forsythe]

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
There has been attempts for many years to "assimilate" muslim immigrants, but it's a long process,

Wasn't Milosovich trying to 'Assimilate' the Muslins in Bosnia ?
Isn't that why we got involved against the Serbs ? - to stop the genocide.

I used assimilate because Irwin used it, check out the quotation marks.
You're a bunch of lunatics. With some weak lashes against socialism.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: Forsythe
The immigrants themselves choose to move to ghettos because that's where they find people of their own kind. In denmark we are talking about moving them with force to area's where there are "normal" people (danes).

How nice!

And it's great that immigrants apparently aren't normal or can't be Danes.

I think this is the problem with most of Europe. There is simply a fundamental difference between the US/Canada and Europe in terms of immigration and the attitude towards it.

 

[ChicagoPCGuy]

Originally posted by: ahurtt

Originally posted by: Zedtom
When all the facts are sorted out, the people of Great Britain should prepare themselves for the enactment of laws similar to the Patriot Act here in the US.

The authorities are going to need the power to investigate every possible angle when looking at suspects of terrorism.

I have mixed feelings about the erosion of our civil liberties both here and in the UK, but this intimidation is getting out of hand.

Freedom has never come without sacrifice. If some liberties have to be infringed upon, I am willing to deal with that. If you are innocent and have nothing to hide, you might be inconvenienced but things will be worked out. The Patriot Act has not made a single bit of difference in my life for the worse since its enactment and I'd wager that for the average American citizen who has nothing to hide, it is the same. No system is perfect and there will be screw ups from time to time, sure. But if you really have nothing to hide, things will get straightened out. Times are changing. Most people are way too sensitive about what they consider to be "private" anyway. . .They have no problem loudly airing their personal grievances and daily life details on cell phones in loud outdoor conversational tones in public places annoying those around them with the details of their mundane lives. . .but the thought that the FBI or somebody could be listening in to them is too much to imagine. People need to get real and stop being so damn indignant if an authority asks to look in their bag.

[Edit] It's funny really. . .next time you see somebody carrying on on their cell phone in a public place, act like you are attentively paying attention to what they are saying and watch how indignant they get.

This is a very dangerous line of thinking. "If you have nothing to hide, things will get straightened out" = "If you have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to worry about." I seriously suggest you rethink your statements. There was a man who said "Those who are willing to give up Liberty for perceived safety are neither deserving of Liberty nor safety." The one who said that was Benjamin Franklin.

The Patriot Act greatly concerns me. The very TITLE of the act concerns me. It is an act that basically intones by it's very title "agree with me, or you are not patriotic." I think that no matter how well intentioned something may be, when you give near absolute power to trample the public's freedoms and rights to due process under the law, you have set the stage for a police state. Perhaps not right now, but perhaps under a different administration that would be willing to misuse the power.

As to this would-be bomber. First, I am concerned that the police wrestled him to the ground and then after he was subdued he was EXECUTED. Yes, I said EXECUTED. There is no other word for it. That makes the police judge, jury, and executioner. That is an example of unlimited power out of control. All the facts are not out yet, but this guy could have been a tax protestor, mentally ill, had 5000 parking tickets, or who knows what. I guess my biggest concern is that many others do not seem to be concerned with what happened to this man. My other concern is that someone who questions what happened will also probably, according to the Government, need to "be watched" for "unpatriotic views."

 

[ChicagoPCGuy]

Originally posted by: irwincur
Even is this guy was not 'one of the bombers' it seems like they had reason to believe he was 'a bomber'.

Furthermore, as I stated earlier. Right now is not the time to wear a winter coat, avoid police, and run through a station and towards a train. Hate to say it, but based on general principle, he deserved to be shot. If you are really innocent you really need to understand the levels of stress that the police are under, and respect it.

Interesting. So, if someone exercises bad judgment and wears a winter coat and runs from the cops, then no matter what it is entirely appropriate to throw him to the ground, put your foot on his chest, and fire a round into his head? Is that was you are advocating?

I also will not give the pass to the police for being under stress. They are supposed to be trained professionals. If the stress is leading them to shoot people in the head in this manner, then they should not be wearing badges and certainly should not be let near a gun. Ever.

From your line of thinking, if this guy was really innocent, then he should have properly understood the stress the police were under, and fully respected the gunshot to the head he received......

I cannot concur with this line of thinking.

 

[Icepick]

Well, if they hadn't shot the guy it's conceivable that he could have reached down and thrown the switch before they managed to cuff him. Even if it was remotely possible for him to detonate the police had a duty to remove the threat. If they had shot in the leg or chest to incapacitate him he could still have moved his hand to the switch and detonated it. Then many innocent lives would be taken. Personally, I'd rather this jerk get executed than see a news report that several innocent Londoners lost their lives for nothing. :beer: to the police for making a split second judgement call and averting a major disaster.

 

[irwincur]

Interesting. So, if someone exercises bad judgment and wears a winter coat and runs from the cops, then no matter what it is entirely appropriate to throw him to the ground, put your foot on his chest, and fire a round into his head? Is that was you are advocating?

In the current environment - YES. Especially if they are wearing a Winter coat during the warmest Summer ever.

Kind of suspect isn't it? At this point I hope they have a shoot fast policy.

 

[ChicagoPCGuy]

Originally posted by: icepik
Well, if they hadn't shot the guy it's conceivable that he could have reached down and thrown the switch before they managed to cuff him. Even if it was remotely possible for him to detonate the police had a duty to remove the threat. If they had shot in the leg or chest to incapacitate him he could still have moved his hand to the switch and detonated it. Then many innocent lives would be taken. Personally, I'd rather this jerk get executed than see a news report that several innocent Londoners lost their lives for nothing. :beer: to the police for making a split second judgement call and averting a major disaster.

And if that line of thinking was pervasive, then you would have the Third Reich all over again, or at least Stalinist Russia.

Stop and consider what you just wrote. You basically give a pass to this situation based upon what might have happened? Uh, I hate to tell you, but the police have never been there to protect you or me. Call them up and ask them if they are there to protect you. Nope is the response you will receive, and I have had cops tell me that to my face.

Cops are there to draw the chalk lines.

 

[ChicagoPCGuy]

Originally posted by: irwincur

Interesting. So, if someone exercises bad judgment and wears a winter coat and runs from the cops, then no matter what it is entirely appropriate to throw him to the ground, put your foot on his chest, and fire a round into his head? Is that was you are advocating?

In the current environment - YES. Especially if they are wearing a Winter coat during the warmest Summer ever.

Kind of suspect isn't it? At this point I hope they have a shoot fast policy.

Well, I guess we now know what profession you should not go into don't we?

 

[BarneyFife]

Originally posted by: ChicagoPCGuy

Originally posted by: icepik
Well, if they hadn't shot the guy it's conceivable that he could have reached down and thrown the switch before they managed to cuff him. Even if it was remotely possible for him to detonate the police had a duty to remove the threat. If they had shot in the leg or chest to incapacitate him he could still have moved his hand to the switch and detonated it. Then many innocent lives would be taken. Personally, I'd rather this jerk get executed than see a news report that several innocent Londoners lost their lives for nothing. :beer: to the police for making a split second judgement call and averting a major disaster.

And if that line of thinking was pervasive, then you would have the Third Reich all over again, or at least Stalinist Russia.

Stop and consider what you just wrote. You basically give a pass to this situation based upon what might have happened? Uh, I hate to tell you, but the police have never been there to protect you or me. Call them up and ask them if they are there to protect you. Nope is the response you will receive, and I have had cops tell me that to my face.

Cops are there to draw the chalk lines.

I guess all those police and firefighters who died at the WTC were there to draw the lines too. :roll:

 

[rustynails]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: Dimkaumd
the guy was wearing a heavy winter jacket....hmm....i wonder what gave him away

Yeah, that and a bomb belt with wires sticking out of it could be considered pretty damning evidence.

If it was truly a bomb belt, and not just some techie nerd with a bunch of gadgets on his belt, e.g., an iPod and cell phone with wired headsets.

Typical jellyfinger, always trolling for ways to make the "good" guys look "bad". Glad to see you have your brethrens back.

 

[Colt45]

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
There has been attempts for many years to "assimilate" muslim immigrants, but it's a long process,

Wasn't Milosovich trying to 'Assimilate' the Muslins in Bosnia ?
Isn't that why we got involved against the Serbs ? - to stop the genocide.

The muslims in bosnia arent arabs though. They're Serbs and Croats (and mixes, as well as other minorities, whatever) that became muslim during the rule of the ottoman empire. There is nothing to assimilate. same language, etc.

Sarajevo used to be an example city of tolerance, all races lived there peacefully.. well at least until internal and external forces increased nationalism, after tito died.

So they're not really a different race, or at least there is a fair bit of shared blood, just a different religion. its just that, generally,

croats - catholic
serbs - orthodox.
muslims - don't remember what religion they were prior to conversion, so hard to tie to a race. probably have more turk blood too, from turkish occupation.

I wouldn't call the bosnian war much of a genocide though, if you want genocide, read up on what the croats and muslims did to the serbs in WWII. [ustase]



apparently tudjman and milosevic were going to split up bosnia anyways, if NATO didnt stick their fingers in it, and left it an internal issue. I suppose there would probably still be some scrapping though.

 

[BuckNaked]

CNN reports that the man shot was not connected to any of the bombings...

 

[ChicagoPCGuy]

Originally posted by: BarneyFife

Originally posted by: ChicagoPCGuy

Originally posted by: icepik
Well, if they hadn't shot the guy it's conceivable that he could have reached down and thrown the switch before they managed to cuff him. Even if it was remotely possible for him to detonate the police had a duty to remove the threat. If they had shot in the leg or chest to incapacitate him he could still have moved his hand to the switch and detonated it. Then many innocent lives would be taken. Personally, I'd rather this jerk get executed than see a news report that several innocent Londoners lost their lives for nothing. :beer: to the police for making a split second judgement call and averting a major disaster.

And if that line of thinking was pervasive, then you would have the Third Reich all over again, or at least Stalinist Russia.

Stop and consider what you just wrote. You basically give a pass to this situation based upon what might have happened? Uh, I hate to tell you, but the police have never been there to protect you or me. Call them up and ask them if they are there to protect you. Nope is the response you will receive, and I have had cops tell me that to my face.

Cops are there to draw the chalk lines.

I guess all those police and firefighters who died at the WTC were there to draw the lines too. :roll:

Yup. You hit the nail right on the head. The Police are there to protect and enforce the LAW and PUBLIC peace. Not you.

Firefighters are there to put out fires.

This has been fought out in the courts so many times it is unbelievable. I suggest you look at case law, get educated, and then come back and try and argue this point.

 

[ChicagoPCGuy]

Originally posted by: Buck_Naked
CNN reports that the man shot was not connected to any of the bombings...

And now that the facts are out....

We have a man who was executed because of high stress levels of the cops?

Sorry, but this deplorable. I don't care what the stress levels of the cops were. They are supposedly trained professionals and this is the sort or thing I would expect from a citizen posse (the reason they are not used anymore, btw).

 

[BarneyFife]

Hopefully people will finally learn that you shouldn't run from the police.

 

[Duckzilla]

Ah, tough times... tough times.

 

[tommywishbone]

I believe I'm stealing someone's words from about 60 years ago but..... "Guten tag Herr Jones, your papers please!" "No papers..... hands up!" Bang.

 

[CanOWorms]

Shoot first (in the head when you have someone captive), ask questions later. Such is the European cowboy way.

 

[Proletariat]

This is pretty horrendous; I hope all the Repubs will admit they're wrong now.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Shoot first (in the head when you have someone captive), ask questions later. Such is the European cowboy way.

Bush/Blair BS . . . it's contagious. The old English stiff upper lip has given way to panic/hysteria. Allegedly, they (popo) followed this guy from his flat. If they were so concerned that he was a "bomber" why allow him into the tube at all?

 

[BarneyFife]

Here is the story from the mirror

THE man shot dead by police at Stockwell station yesterday was NOT carrying a bomb.

Officers swarmed into the Tube stop after following him from a nearby house - thought to be the home of the Oval station bomber.

Documents leading them to that address and two others in East and West London had been found in rucksacks holding Thursday's bombs.

Undercover officers staked out the house that night and tracked the man, in his 20s, as he left the property yesterday morning.

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He was challenged as he bought a Tube ticket at Stockwell station, not far from the Oval in South London.

He ran off, vaulting the ticket barrier and sprinting down an escalator on to a platform. Some witnesses said he was carrying a rucksack.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_objecti...%2dhe%2dhad%2dno%2dbomb-name_page.html

 

[CaptnKirk]

Originally posted by: conjur
Whoa!!!

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/co...y_page/0,5744,16019385%255E601,00.html

POLICE shot dead a suspected suicide bomber on the London Underground last night, just 24 hours after a bungled second-wave attack on the British capital's transport system.

The man was shot five times by police at almost point-blank range after he jumped on to an open carriage at Stockwell station in south London.

A witness said the man had a bomb strapped to his body.

"He had a bomb belt with wires coming out," Anthony Larkin told BBC.

[...]

Well now we know that wasn't quite the story. 1 man dead, shot point blank 5 thimes in the head.
Bang - you're it.

'They followed him out af a suspected dwelling' has segued into him coming from a neighborhood where there had been a house under surveilance.

Witnesses who said they saw a bomb indeed had creative imaginations - seeing that which they feared . . . and it wasn't even there.

Panic and run from strangers on a subway in England now carries the death penalty.

This Bobby's got some 'Splainin to do.

 

[BarneyFife]

Why did he leap over a gate and run from police?

 

[CaptnKirk]

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Why did he leap over a gate and run from police?

Plain-clothes Police ?

No skeak-a da language ?