Man, this housing thing is going to get REALLY ugly

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Dec 10, 2005
24,457
7,393
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I agree a lot of people have no nuance. Just like the people claiming "Your neighbor should be able to do whatever they want with 'their' property."

If cities came in, and said this whole area is going to be redeveloped with this zoning and this goal, I think that is great. Rando in a neighborhood deciding to put in a 4 family unit in a single family neighborhood, not so great IMHO.
I think some of the "do whatever they want" attitude is just a lashing back at the generations of restrictive zoning and how today, even the most mild and sensible proposals to add a little more density get severe push back. And because of all that push back for sensible proposals, we instead get random density in places where it doesn't make much sense. Whereas, if people wanted to work together, we could adjust zoning in places close to transit or future transit corridors to allow some modest density (not 10 story apartments, but maybe 2-4-plex units that blend in with the neighborhood) - but that's likely going to mean trampling on someone, because everyone believes that their house should be the last one built in their hermetically sealed neighborhood.
 
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repoman0

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2010
4,544
3,472
136
I pay ~$6k in property taxes and another 5% in income taxes and honestly consider it a deal. We have the best public schools in the country and the highest average IQ to go along with it, similar to Japan. I don’t like being surrounded by idiots and will gladly pay to keep it so. Very good snow removal, trash service, and generally competent local government is all a nice bonus
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
22,003
20,241
136
I think some of the "do whatever they want" attitude is just a lashing back at the generations of restrictive zoning and how today, even the most mild and sensible proposals to add a little more density get severe push back. And because of all that push back for sensible proposals, we instead get random density in places where it doesn't make much sense. Whereas, if people wanted to work together, we could adjust zoning in places close to transit or future transit corridors to allow some modest density (not 10 story apartments, but maybe 2-4-plex units that blend in with the neighborhood) - but that's likely going to mean trampling on someone, because everyone believes that their house should be the last one built in their hermetically sealed neighborhood.

I don't see anybody in here who is pro more density arguing that people should always be able to do whatever they want with their property, really that's just a scare tactic used by NIMBY's, but 100% on that analysis - and that link is a perfect example of how you can blend in additional density whether it's side by side or stacked, etc...
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
69,557
27,861
136
I don't see anybody in here who is pro more density arguing that people should always be able to do whatever they want with their property, really that's just a scare tactic used by NIMBY's, but 100% on that analysis - and that link is a perfect example of how you can blend in additional density whether it's side by side or stacked, etc...
The sentiment is in the very first reply to the thread.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
22,003
20,241
136
The sentiment is in the very first reply to the thread.
No it's not at all.

He said 'limiting' local zoning, not getting rid of it. Limiting. In fact even gave an example of up to a quadplex.

A quadplex is certainly nowhere near do whatever you want with a single family lot. Nowhere near.

I mean you are running around scared of a bogeyman that doesn't exist except with really few people that don't represent the movement of sensible zoning law reform.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
69,557
27,861
136
No it's not at all.

He said 'limiting' local zoning, not getting rid of it. Limiting. In fact even gave an example of up to a quadplex.

A quadplex is certainly nowhere near do whatever you want with a single family lot. Nowhere near.

I mean you are running around scared of a bogeyman that doesn't exist except with really few people that don't represent the movement of sensible zoning law reform.
A quadplex would fundamentally change a SFR lot and the neighborhood around it. If you want something different, then don't buy an SFR zoned neighborhood. It's pretty simple.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
67,936
12,384
126
www.anyf.ca
I absolutely do think we should be more free to to do what we want with our property, as long as it is not physically impacting anyone else. Eye sores should not count, but things like noise, smells, water run off etc should still be regulated on a case per case bassis. But if someone wants to build a couple tiny houses on their lot and rent them out, or someone wants to add an addition or put a sea can or shed, they absolutely should be allowed to. It's insane all the petty regulations now days, all because of people who care too much about property value. At the end of the day, they are rich self entitled people who only care about later flipping their house for profit and are telling everyone else how to live so their investment can be better, and cities freaking listen to them. It's a piss off really. Those people are super selfish. HOAs are even worse for that. That's not living.

That kind of crap is one of the reasons I bought 40 acres in an unorganized township though. Nobody will be telling me what to do because it's unorganized and there's no bylaws and crap like that.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
22,003
20,241
136
A quadplex would fundamentally change a SFR lot and the neighborhood around it. If you want something different, then don't buy an SFR zoned neighborhood. It's pretty simple.
If you want to evolve as a species and not regress as a society, it's quite simple, don't be you who has no argument except change of any kind is bad.

Will Minneapolis be destroyed in 5 years? Care to wager?
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
22,003
20,241
136
Society evolves. In 1970 the populaton of the US was 200 milllion. Suburban single family zoning was firmly established, and in no small part due to racism, keep the blacks in the cities. But let's not even get into that. We are now a nation of 330 million. People are congregating closer to areas with more amenities and infrastructure, and we now have an affordable housing crisis. You can either say fuck you to everybody, which some people in this thread are eager to do, or be part of a reasonable solution.

You can either cry NIMBY'ism at everything and use fearmongering tactics like nature and rocks will be destroyed and central park must be razed, but it's nonsensical, or you can evolve as a human being and understand that the world actually does change, and there are reasonable expectations to change with it in order to form a more perfect union, such as approaching zoning with a more open mind, and helping establish reasonable rules to both enhance density and transport and use of resources while still maintaining a good quality of life.

The only people in this thread being completely unreasonable are NIMBY's. Everyone else seems pretty reasonable.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
69,557
27,861
136
Society evolves. In 1970 the populaton of the US was 200 milllion. Suburban single family zoning was firmly established, and in no small part due to racism, keep the blacks in the cities. But let's not even get into that. We are now a nation of 330 million. People are congregating closer to areas with more amenities and infrastructure, and we now have an affordable housing crisis. You can either say fuck you to everybody, which some people in this thread are eager to do, or be part of a reasonable solution.

You can either cry NIMBY'ism at everything and use fearmongering tactics like nature and rocks will be destroyed and central park must be razed, but it's nonsensical, or you can evolve as a human being and understand that the world actually does change, and there are reasonable expectations to change with it in order to form a more perfect union, such as approaching zoning with a more open mind, and helping establish reasonable rules to both enhance density and transport and use of resources while still maintaining a good quality of life.

The only people in this thread being completely unreasonable are NIMBY's. Everyone else seems pretty reasonable.
Reasonable = agrees with Mr. Squished.
 
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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
22,003
20,241
136
Reasonable = agrees with Mr. Squished.

Reasonable is not just saying nothing can change ever. Which is you. You refuse to take a friendly wager with a city doing exactly what I say it should do, eliminate single family zoning and let up to triplexes be built. You keep ignoring me. Also you keep ignoring why people do want to live in certain areas, you blame only greedy developers, but continuously ignore that people actually want to live near certain areas where stuff is. You completely ignore questions about how a society should evolve to accomodate population and societal changes. All you keep saying is, any change is bad.

Reasonable is not you, who continuously ignores things asked of them and covers their ears and says 'ha ha I can't hear you and I don't have to respond to all your points'

You look really unreasonable. But keep posting, it's great.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
69,557
27,861
136
Reasonable is not just saying nothing can change ever. Which is you. You refuse to take a friendly wager with a city doing exactly what I say it should do, eliminate single family zoning and let up to triplexes be built. You keep ignoring me. Also you keep ignoring why people do want to live in certain areas, you blame only greedy developers, but continuously ignore that people actually want to live near certain areas where stuff is. You completely ignore questions about how a society should evolve to accomodate population and societal changes. All you keep saying is, any change is bad.

Reasonable is not you, who continuously ignores things asked of them and covers their ears and says 'ha ha I can't hear you and I don't have to respond to all your points'

You look really unreasonable. But keep posting, it's great.
I totally get that people want to live in certain areas and can't afford to do so. So what? You dismiss any negative impacts of up-zoning, waving them away because it's inconvenient for you to acknowledge the impacts. You basically argue like a fifth grader, stomping your feet when people don't agree with you. Don't like SFR neighborhoods? Great, don't buy in one.
 
Dec 10, 2005
24,457
7,393
136
I totally get that people want to live in certain areas and can't afford to do so. So what? You dismiss any negative impacts of up-zoning, waving them away because it's inconvenient for you to acknowledge the impacts. You basically argue like a fifth grader, stomping your feet when people don't agree with you. Don't like SFR neighborhoods? Great, don't buy in one.
And you're dismissing all the extremely negative impacts of doing nothing to change the status quo. Nevermind the higher costs of housing shifted onto everyone. Rampant sprawl, and a desire to keep it in place, is basically a form of climate change denialism, given the extra energy that needs to be consumed to drive everywhere and excessive energy required to heat/cool every single family house.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
69,557
27,861
136
And you're dismissing all the extremely negative impacts of doing nothing to change the status quo. Nevermind the higher costs of housing shifted onto everyone. Rampant sprawl, and a desire to keep it in place, is basically a form of climate change denialism, given the extra energy that needs to be consumed to drive everywhere and excessive energy required to heat/cool every single family house.
So don't buy one.
 

Torn Mind

Lifer
Nov 25, 2012
11,782
2,685
136
And you're dismissing all the extremely negative impacts of doing nothing to change the status quo. Nevermind the higher costs of housing shifted onto everyone. Rampant sprawl, and a desire to keep it in place, is basically a form of climate change denialism, given the extra energy that needs to be consumed to drive everywhere and excessive energy required to heat/cool every single family house.
You only talking about city SFHs or including SFHs in well country?
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
22,003
20,241
136
I totally get that people want to live in certain areas and can't afford to do so. So what? You dismiss any negative impacts of up-zoning, waving them away because it's inconvenient for you to acknowledge the impacts. You basically argue like a fifth grader, stomping your feet when people don't agree with you. Don't like SFR neighborhoods? Great, don't buy in one.

So what that a shitload of people can't afford housing where people must live to be near enough to jobs and infrastructure such as healthcare and education? It takes a special kind of a-hole to be so cavalierly dismissive about that.

I don't dislike all SFH neighborhoods, and never said there shouldn't be any single family neighborhoods either, not even close to that, but I also dont' think they should be the de facto zoning as they are now either. Your solution of just don't buy one is really stupid. A childlike argument. And I did not buy a single family home, I live in a 3 story 3 unit condo building in an area with few single family homes. But that is completely irrelevant anyway. It's like talking about gun violence and gun control and someone saying there should be a conversation about some reasonable restrictions on gun sales and ownership, and you saying fuck off, just don't buy one. Very silly statement.

I never dismissed any negative impacts of upzoning, but you haven't really come up with any either, except for completely unplanned zoning, which I disagreed with already, so you have no point. I specifically said it should be done with planning - working with or improving the surrounding infrastructure if needed, pointed out how it could be done while still working with the neighborhood aesthetic (based on a link another poster used)etc.. I posted an article on how European cities are designed with public transport, avoiding as much sprawl while still not being these very dense cities and still having SFH neighborhoods. I asked you to put your money where your mouth is on Minneapolis and you refuse to do so. You have provide absolutely zero evidence that planned upzoning has these massive negative effects besides the fact they piss you off. Instead you make alarmist gibberish statements that allowing duplexes and triplexes will just destroy neighborhoods or we will have to raze Central Park for residential towers. It's an intellectual joke.

You ignore everything, refuse to be a part of any solution, keep saying the same things, not responding to any points with anything of substance except repeating this will be terrible, and you remind me of when me and my sister were like 4 years old. If we heard something we didn't like we'd cover our ears and move them about pointing at the person trying to talk to us and sing 'Na nee na nee poo poo I can't hear you' and repeat.

It's amusing but sad at the same time.

Also, btw, there are many articles how much it costs to subsidize purely suburban SFZ neighborhoods. You should start to volunteer to pay up if you want to continue to be so obtuse about this whole subject.

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/urbs/we-have-always-subsidized-suburbia/

"What image springs to mind when you picture “federally subsidized housing”? Most people imagine a low-income public housing tower, a homeless shelter, or a shoddy apartment building.

Nope—suburban homeowners are the single biggest recipient of housing subsidies. As a result, suburbs dominate housing in the United States. For decades, federal finance regulations incentivized single-family homes through three key mechanisms:

  1. Insurance
  2. National mortgage markets
  3. New standards for debt structuring
The housing market hides these details from the typical home buyer. As a result, most people are unaware of these subsidies. But their effects are striking—they determined the location and shape of development across America for generations."


"The dirty little secret which nearly every municipal government in America must grapple with is that single-family homes are usually a money loser from the local government’s point of view. Especially if they’re on larger lots in automobile-oriented neighborhoods, the services and infrastructure they demand will likely cost more, in the long run, than the tax revenue these properties bring in.
(Our friends at geoanalytics firm Urban3 have been pioneers in demonstrating this fact, in such places as Lafayette, Louisiana and, more recently, Eugene, Oregon—where a startling graph reveals that the 80% or so of the land within Eugene’s borders that is populated by single-family residences is essentially all revenue net-negative.)

Elected officials must often do a difficult rhetorical dance, because if they’ve spent time seriously contemplating their budget outlook, they understand this fact. And yet they must speak to a citizenry many of whom not only live in single-family homes, but ascribe a huge amount of cultural value to this living arrangement. In a place like Edina, Minnesota, the whole cultural identity is built around an archetype of the suburban Good Life. Detached home, big garage, big yard, quiet and leafy neighborhood full of prosperous families."



"Starving the cities to feed the suburbs
A new report finds that of the $450 billion the federal government spends on real estate each year, the lion’s share subsidizes suburban growth -- at the expense of both cities and the planet."
 
Last edited:
Reactions: repoman0
Dec 10, 2005
24,457
7,393
136
You only talking about city SFHs or including SFHs in well country?
My thoughts for SFH related to cities and areas where it makes sense in suburbs (ie, along transit corridors and near local commercial centers). And in general, some suburbs have made things worse with their style of SFHs by also mandating arbitrarily large lots (encouraging expensive, large houses exclusively).

Don't really care what people do when they live in the middle of nowhere with few to no government services.
 

dasherHampton

Platinum Member
Jan 19, 2018
2,543
488
96
The prices I quoted at the beginning of this thread seem low but they were real. You have to remember - we were coming off the Great Recession. I was buying at the perfect time. There were houses available for under 200k that now would be well over 300k.

My area has gained a little population (according to the last census) but not much. Not early enough to explain the lack of housing available. Not even close. Speculative buying has to have a lot to do with this.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
63,436
11,762
136
I'm expecting a shit ton of housing adjustments now that the rental eviction moratoriums have expired all over the country...as well as mortgage forbearance programs. Lots of folks are going to be losing their homes/apartments.
 

Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
11,573
5,096
136
I'm expecting a shit ton of housing adjustments now that the rental eviction moratoriums have expired all over the country...as well as mortgage forbearance programs. Lots of folks are going to be losing their homes/apartments.

You know the almost criminal part about that? It’s that about 89% of the COVID funding that was authorized for rental assistance has NOT been spent/given out.

Almost seems like there’s something going on behind the scenes keeping that money out of the hands of the people who could benefit from it…tenets and landlords.
 
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