Man walks around Seattle with swastika armband and gets punched to ground by passerby

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greatnoob

Senior member
Jan 6, 2014
968
395
136
"Inciting violence" has a more specific legal and practical meaning. An offensive speech falls far short from it. I have no doubt the arm band dude is deluded, bigoted, or both. But the remedy against bigoted speech cannot be a private violence. With 300+ million people living with vastly differing views in a country, if people start taking offensive speakers to their own devices, then we no longer live under a rule of law. And it does not leave much to imagination who will be the victims under such a regime.

Does that mean our citizenry is helpless against the lunatics spreading offensive speech? No. It is somewhat cliche'd, but an answer to an offensive speech is more (counter) speech. If that does not seem satisfactory to you, there are other means as well: Public shunning is one. (like what we do on this board) Boycotting is another. If he is employed, you can write to his employer exposing his abhorrent views and ask his employer to do his civic duty of disciplining him. Heck, if all of this seems too cumbersome, you could just walk up to him and scorn him loudly for his antisocial ideas (without uttering fighting words).

But punching him in the face? Do you really believe that is an appropriate answer to an offensive speech in a liberal democracy like ours?

Choice selection of words there. Do you really think a call for genocide is just "offensive speech?"

You're also arguing against something that was never said by me. I don't believe punching him in the face is an "appropriate answer" but then again I couldn't care less what happens to a neo Nazi. This is what I said:

ITT: Nazis deserve the right to call and incite for the genocide of people because "first amendment rights."

I don't remember who said this but if the best argument for your case is "first amendment rights" then you really don't have anything of substance to add to the discussion and you'd be best off not making yourself look like an idiot defending neo Nazis (you know, the people who are advocating the killing of semites and minorities).

This is what you said:
Boldly claiming Nazi beliefs is inciting violence?

I thought that was hilarious and I wanted to know what you thought Nazis believed in. Do you think it's acceptable to wear a Swastika armband in public knowing full well what the Nazis did? Instead of sugar coating it as "offensive speech" maybe you'd like to take another crack at what this emboldened idiot was trying to do.
 

lopri

Elite Member
Jul 27, 2002
13,211
597
126
I already noted that incitement of violence is outside of the 1st Amendment protection. But I do not believe wearing a Swastika arm band amounts to incitement of violence. And I know I am right because as far as I can tell no one was incited and joined him in acts of violence. No one, except for the other dude who was offended and decided to punch the arm band dude in response.
 

greatnoob

Senior member
Jan 6, 2014
968
395
136
I already noted that incitement of violence is outside of the 1st Amendment protection. But I do not believe wearing a Swastika arm band amounts to incitement of violence. And I know I am right because as far as I can tell no one was incited and joined him in acts of violence. No one, except for the other dude who was offended and decided to punch the arm band dude in response.

So Swastika armbands are a fashion statement to you and Nazis' speech should be protected because "first amendment rights". Thanks for proving me right, nazi sympathiser.
 

Ackmed

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2003
8,478
524
126
Apologies for wasting your time. Get back to us when you actually understand what it means for someone to label themselves a "Nazi".

No problem. Get back to me when you actually understand the 1st Amendment.

I laid out several examples of offensive free speech. Instead of commenting on them, saying you agree or disagree, you avoid. I guess you're perfectly ok with a black supremacist shouting hate and bigotry on the streets, since you didn't say otherwise? Or do you think they deserve a punch to the face too? Doubtful that you do. Same for others here. Or perhaps you're one of the people here who believe racism against whites isn't a thing. Seems pretty common around here.

Just so we're clear, you're anti 1st Amendment and pro street justice for words than hurt. You and others still think that defending the 1st Amendment is defending them, when its not. You and others obviously cannot categorize. /done
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
No problem. Get back to me when you actually understand the 1st Amendment.

I laid out several examples of offensive free speech. Instead of commenting on them, saying you agree or disagree, you avoid. I guess you're perfectly ok with a black supremacist shouting hate and bigotry on the streets, since you didn't say otherwise? Or do you think they deserve a punch to the face too? Doubtful that you do. Same for others here. Or perhaps you're one of the people here who believe racism against whites isn't a thing. Seems pretty common around here.

Just so we're clear, you're anti 1st Amendment and pro street justice for words than hurt. You and others still think that defending the 1st Amendment is defending them, when its not. You and others obviously cannot categorize. /done
I know what you mean - and I've been in a nearly identical circumstance as you and your wife were in your previous post, so I understand the "well, I could destroy them but my family needs me to not be in jail" decision you had to make - but ultimately I think this comes down to even your example is different and not as bad as a Nazi using his/her armband to state, "We want to exterminate you and your kind."

Nazis aren't aggravating but earnest free speechers or run-of-the-mill louts. They're saying they want to make the genocide of you, your family, and that hot Persian girl who works at the sunglasses booth at the mall a reality. Disabusing them of expressing that notion in public before more Nazis do the same through well-placed punches? Possibly not a bad tactical decision.
 
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OWR88

Senior member
Oct 27, 2013
231
73
101
Nazi sympathizers, please march in the next Nazi rally. I will buy you a brand new Nazi arm band.

That is, if you really got the balls. At least those guys has courage to do it. You just whine on the internet being a Nazi sympathizer. Defending the enemy our states with reverse racism argument, oh the horror how dare anyone think less of a Nazi.

Thanks Obama.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
Nazi sympathizers, please march in the next Nazi rally. I will buy you a brand new Nazi arm band.

That is, if you really got the balls. At least those guys has courage to do it. You just whine on the internet being a Nazi sympathizer. Defending the enemy our states with reverse racism argument, oh the horror how dare anyone think less of a Nazi.

Thanks Obama.
There's no need to be hyperbolic - they're not Nazi sympathizers. They just don't understand that the armband is a loud-and-clear political statement calling for mass murder.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,803
29,553
146
If punching a Nazi is wrong, then the Allies were in the wrong for fighting against Nazi Germany.

we didn't let Nazis speak enough, we didn't let them assemble enough. If only we let Nazis live their lives in peace, that whole war could have been avoided!

Holy shit--the conservatives of today are gaslighted, irresponsible, craven morons. Is there a single useful bone in the entirety of this party? Are they all this useless?
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,803
29,553
146
We are crossing the line with things like this. I'm no Nazi sympathizer, but no matter how ugly we think another person's opinion is, if they're not harming others' rights with what they're doing they should be free to have that opinion and express it. Using violence to harm someone else because their opinion is ignorant, wrong, or even evil to another is not right in regards to what our constitution is and what real freedom is.

Nothing could go wrong.

The last time we let Nazis peacefully assemble and ignored them aka: when we decided that violence wasn't the proper solution for them:

 
Reactions: Thebobo

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,803
29,553
146
Oh really? Then why I was accused as an evil old white guy living in a broken down trailer, then as a young red neck skinhead white guy, then as a Korean, then a Japanese, then whatever floats the boat <fill in the blank> from certain losers in this forum?

To be honest, it was amused to laugh at those pathetic losers with all of those unfound accusations. Can't debate with facts, pull out the accusations with nothing to backup. Latest accusation, I am a Trump supporter/voter. I am still waiting for any evidence, anything at all.

Man, your trigger level must be set to 12. Without prompting, you just had to make some random post about your poor poor feels. How awesome and proud you are, and how totally not a loser you are, because it says so right there in your sig!

"Any man who has to remind others that he is the king, is no king." That's a fact, bro.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,803
29,553
146
Kaepernick made news for 2 reasons:

#1 - First world problems. Nothing more hilarious than someone claiming oppression as an NFL player. Pretty comical, actually - and it's not because he is "standing in" to help the overall cause, he genuinely thinks he is oppressed. This all goes back to the overall notion of "It's not my fault - it's society's fault" It's always easier to play the victim because you're always less likely to be questioned.

#2 - He fucking sucks as a QB. The fact that no one wants him isn't because of his stupid stunt of kneeling, he just legitimately sucks as a player. So what better way to get attention as a backup then to get a media spotlight? Notice - he didn't do this during his prime when he had the starter position did he? Of course not, because you can't claim to be oppressed when you're the starter. Now that he sucks balls and was benched, he can now take the Queen's throne for being "oppressed". It's attention whoring 101, and anyone who disagrees with that is retarded because no one can answer the question "Why didn't he do that for the previous 2 seasons as the starter?" And no, the answer isn't that BLM is recent news, it already had headlines during his prime years.

Actually, it wasn't about him, it was the fact that he was publicly visible and so able to make a statement about all people of color. Not about him. You want to believe that, obviously, and will likely always believe that because it excuses whatever real reasons you have to dislike the guy and his message, but you are flat out wrong.

Didn't read the rest, because it probably follows from your broken premise.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,277
28,135
136
There is zero evidence the guy wearing the arm band did anything close to what you describe.

This Nazi was witnessed by several people verbally assaulting a black bus passenger. He continued his assaults on the street until someone physically assaulted him.

I don't feel bad for the Nazi and not just because he got knocked out it's what they all stand for. Its just as much of an ideological beatdown as it was a physical one.

My guess if you were on a bus with your mother and someone got in her face yelling and screaming it may warrant a physical response and no one would blame you.

I just can't help but wonder people like you and Trump being so worried about white supremacists 1st amendment right but get exercised when black people take those same rights. Maybe you and Trump secretly want the white supremacists agenda to succeed. Maybe its in your subconscious and you don't even know it.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,803
29,553
146
Conservatives refuse to understand that Nazis will bring the violence; regardless of what you want, they will bring violence. They only way they stop is when their violence ends, and it is only ended by meeting them with opposing violence.

The choice you conservatives have to make is how many people you think are necessary to be beaten or die in order to stop Nazis from achieving their goals. 50, 100, 7 million? what's a proper number?

Or, are you actually curious about "Seeing where this all goes" because you harbor deep, lustful and passionate fantasies about a 4th Reich Utopia? At this point, I don't understand where you conservatives are coming from, because it really seems like you are approaching the "genocide really isn't that big of a deal" argument.
 

greatnoob

Senior member
Jan 6, 2014
968
395
136
Conservatives refuse to understand that Nazis will bring the violence; regardless of what you want, they will bring violence. They only way they stop is when their violence ends, and it is only ended by meeting them with opposing violence.

The choice you conservatives have to make is how many people you think are necessary to be beaten or die in order to stop Nazis from achieving their goals. 50, 100, 7 million? what's a proper number?

Or, are you actually curious about "Seeing where this all goes" because you harbor deep, lustful and passionate fantasies about a 4th Reich Utopia? At this point, I don't understand where you conservatives are coming from, because it really seems like you are approaching the "genocide really isn't that big of a deal" argument.


That is exactly what they're reaching at. Just look at the two imbeciles in this thread making piss poor excuses for Nazis. Downplaying a call for genocide as just "offensive speech" should tell you all you need to know how scummy and stupid American conservatives are.
 

child of wonder

Diamond Member
Aug 31, 2006
8,307
175
106
That is exactly what they're reaching at. Just look at the two imbeciles in this thread making piss poor excuses for Nazis. Downplaying a call for genocide as just "offensive speech" should tell you all you need to know how scummy and stupid American conservatives are.

Nazis are the scum of the earth but no one has the right to preemptively commit violence against others because of their opinions or beliefs no matter how toxic they are. For fuck's sake, we teach our children in daycare not to hit and bite others when they say mean things but it's OK for adults?

Want to stop Nazis? Educate, peacefully talk to people, vote for political leaders who will oppose Nazis, etc.

I'm an atheist and think teaching children nonsense is damaging and abusive to not only the child, but the scientific progress of humankind. Can I punch Christian parents?

Anti-vaxxers are responsible for thousands of deaths in America and even more across the world. Clearly anto-vaxxers need to be stopped and they support murder. What color bandanna should my friends and I wear when we kick in Jenny McCarthy's door and beat her to a pulp?

I've been watching Leah Remini's series exposing the crimes of Scientology and how destructive L. Ron Hubbard's cult is. Anyone who stops me from assaulting a Scientologist trying to recruit new members is a Scientology sympathizer.
 

lopri

Elite Member
Jul 27, 2002
13,211
597
126
What makes my head shake is some folks' naive thinking that street justice will be on their side, in a country that just elected a bigot president.
 

snoopy7548

Diamond Member
Jan 1, 2005
8,084
5,082
146
I thought I was done here, but I gotta try one last time...

You know, after reading Paratus' comment, I have to change my stance slightly. I previously said I would not immediately attack a Nazi for speaking unless he physically attacked me first, as speech is just speech and can be drowned out with even louder speech. I'm not a violent person. But movements start with speech.

There are Nazis (or neo-Nazis) walking around in everyday life. This one decided to wear an arm band and proudly display who he is, while many others do not. Those who do not explicitly show who they are continue to speak. They talk about work, life, their children, worries about the economy, politics, sports, TV, the latest tech gadgets, etc., just like everyone else. You might even work with one or live near one and not even know it. Hell, you could be friends with one.

They might not go to rallies, but they might attend secret meetings. They might simply keep their Nazi-related beliefs to themselves, but deep down at their core that is what they are. If it came down to it, they would stand with other Nazis to the death.

Yet, they continue to enjoy the first amendment like everyone else.

But once they feel the need to put their beliefs on display, all bets are off. In their minds, their hatred is justified and they feel comfortable enough with who they really are that they take it public. That's not gonna fly. That's akin to having thoughts about murdering somebody, then taking it to the next level and issuing death threats. They may not explicity threaten you, but in essence they truly are. Nuances like that can be misunderstood, even in the eyes of the law. So yeah, Nazis should not have the right to spew their hatred, but unfortunately they do. I think this was the point that was troubling me and I couldn't figure out how to express.

It's a good thing this dickbag wore his armband and ranted in public. Otherwise, we might not know who is who. So yeah, I support Nazis displaying who they are. Let them speak out. Let them think they have a platform to spew their hate. It makes it easier to identify and ruin their pathetic lives. When they are silenced by society, they'll either crawl back to their little holes or re-evaulate their beliefs. What you don't want is for them to build a large network in secret and come out in masses.

And OWR88, you gotta relax man. I was trying to get my thoughts on the subject out so they could be challenged and changed (and Paratus, among others, not responding to me, made me reconsider these thoughts). Me saying I wouldn't assault a Nazi because I don't want to be arrested is a tough stance. I know that Nazis were able to rise to power because people (probably like me) did not want to incite violence and feel the repercussions of their actions. But their inaction had far worse repercussions than spending a few nights in jail.

My final thought is that I just don't know what I would do if I was faced with a Nazi proclaiming his beliefs in public. IMO, that doesn't make me a Nazi sympathizer. I will yell and scream and drown out their words without a second thought, but violence against speech isn't something I can unquestionably commit to.
 
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TeeJay1952

Golden Member
May 28, 2004
1,540
191
106
I am 65. I have watched and been indoctrinated by Movies and TV. Nazi represents the worst of mankind and is evil and should be resisted with every fiber of our being. Generations sacrificed their lives and livelihoods to eradicate it.
The dude wanted attention and got it.

It isn't our military the world is afraid of, it is our citizenry.
 

greatnoob

Senior member
Jan 6, 2014
968
395
136
Nazis are the scum of the earth but no one has the right to preemptively commit violence against others because of their opinions or beliefs no matter how toxic they are. For fuck's sake, we teach our children in daycare not to hit and bite others when they say mean things but it's OK for adults?

Want to stop Nazis? Educate, peacefully talk to people, vote for political leaders who will oppose Nazis, etc.

I'm an atheist and think teaching children nonsense is damaging and abusive to not only the child, but the scientific progress of humankind. Can I punch Christian parents?

Anti-vaxxers are responsible for thousands of deaths in America and even more across the world. Clearly anto-vaxxers need to be stopped and they support murder. What color bandanna should my friends and I wear when we kick in Jenny McCarthy's door and beat her to a pulp?

I've been watching Leah Remini's series exposing the crimes of Scientology and how destructive L. Ron Hubbard's cult is. Anyone who stops me from assaulting a Scientologist trying to recruit new members is a Scientology sympathizer.

Nowhere did I say it was okay to attack them but as I've said, I couldn't care less if they were attacked for proudly showing off their vitriol.

You can't educate a Nazi. They're Nazis because they're uneducated and wilfully ignorant folks similar to the dumb conservatives you'll see in this forum.
 

Lucio G.

Junior Member
Aug 20, 2017
5
2
16
I don't think we should be tolerant of Nazi's and their genocidal ideals. There's a limit to free speech, it doesn't include genocides.
 

child of wonder

Diamond Member
Aug 31, 2006
8,307
175
106
Nowhere did I say it was okay to attack them but as I've said, I couldn't care less if they were attacked for proudly showing off their vitriol.

You can't educate a Nazi. They're Nazis because they're uneducated and wilfully ignorant folks similar to the dumb conservatives you'll see in this forum.

You can't educate an anti-vaxxer. They're anti-vaxxers because they're uneducated and willfully ignorant folks similar to the dumb conservatives you'll see in this forum.

I couldn't care less if they were attacked for proudly showing off their vitriol.
 

greatnoob

Senior member
Jan 6, 2014
968
395
136
You can't educate an anti-vaxxer. They're anti-vaxxers because they're uneducated and willfully ignorant folks similar to the dumb conservatives you'll see in this forum.

I couldn't care less if they were attacked for proudly showing off their vitriol.

Nice false equivalence there, idiot. Let us know when anti-vaxxers openly call for the genocide of certain peoples.
 
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