Manslaughter Charge Over a Miscarriage ... OK.

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

Outcry Over Woman Found Guilty of Manslaughter After Suffering Miscarriage

Brittney Poolaw, 21, was sentenced to four years in prison after being convicted in relation to a miscarriage she had in 2020.

www.newsweek.com

What decade is this?

 

[SmCaudata]

I wonder who is going to start the revolution against the GOP crazies.

 

[BoomerD]

Was it a "natural" miscarriage, or did she cause it intentionally?

 

[Zorba]

There is a difference in an abortion and killing your fetus via meth use. I'm very much pro-choice, but have no problem jailing someone for shooting meth while pregnant.

 

[SmCaudata]

Was it a "natural" miscarriage, or did she cause it imtentionally?

WTF does that mean? And why would it matter?

 

[SmCaudata]

There is a difference in an abortion and killing your fetus via meth use. I'm very much pro-choice, but have no problem jailing someone for shooting meth while pregnant.

How can you determine the cause? They can charge her for drugs, but there are no laws that support the outcome. You can't charge people just because you feel like it.

Miscarriage rate by 17 weeks is very high. In fact, I'd bet that the spontaneous miscarriage rate is much higher than the rate that something bad happens due to meth.

Where would you draw the line?
Tobacco is worse for baby than meth probably.
Obesity in mom is bad.
Maternal age has a more profound effect.
Diabetes?

I could go on. Just because it makes you angry, doesn't mean it is, or should be, a manslaughter case.

 

[Zorba]

How can you determine the cause? They can charge her for drugs, but there are no laws that support the outcome. You can't charge people just because you feel like it.

Miscarriage rate by 17 weeks is very high. In fact, I'd bet that the spontaneous miscarriage rate is much higher than the rate that something bad happens due to meth.

Where would you draw the line?
Tobacco is worse for baby than meth probably.
Obesity in mom is bad.
Maternal age has a more profound effect.
Diabetes?

I could go on. Just because it makes you angry, doesn't mean it is, or should be, a manslaughter case.

There are laws against prenatal abuse, including drug use.

If you aren't going to care about the kid enough to give up meth, get a fucking abortion, then a sterilization.

 

[woolfe9998]

How can you determine the cause? They can charge her for drugs, but there are no laws that support the outcome. You can't charge people just because you feel like it.

Miscarriage rate by 17 weeks is very high. In fact, I'd bet that the spontaneous miscarriage rate is much higher than the rate that something bad happens due to meth.

Where would you draw the line?
Tobacco is worse for baby than meth probably.
Obesity in mom is bad.
Maternal age has a more profound effect.
Diabetes?

I could go on. Just because it makes you angry, doesn't mean it is, or should be, a manslaughter case.

Miscarriage rates run about 15% in total, with age being the largest factor. Even if she doubled her risk with drug use, there is still a 50/50 chance the drug use wasn't the cause. In a criminal case for manslaughter, that = reasonable doubt.

 

[SmCaudata]

There are laws against prenatal abuse, including drug use.

If you aren't going to care about the kid enough to give up meth, get a fucking abortion, then a sterilization.

Per the article, they shouldn't kick in until 20 weeks in OK.

 

[woolfe9998]

There are laws against prenatal abuse, including drug use.

If you aren't going to care about the kid enough to give up meth, get a fucking abortion, then a sterilization.

If there are laws against "prenatal abuse," then she should be prosecuted for those. There is too much doubt as to whether the drugs were the cause of the miscarriage for manslaughter to be appropriate. As to what she should do with herself, that is a separate issue.

 

[mikeymikec]

Was it a "natural" miscarriage, or did she cause it imtentionally?

Do you think it's a healthy thing for a civilised society to target a woman grieving after a miscarriage and say "we're going to try and find a way to legally blame this on you"?

Just aside from the moral angle, I'd fully expect birth rates to go into freefall if women get the idea that society is going to try and find them legally liable for a perfectly natural occurrence.

Just aside from the moral angle #2 - this would be a great idea for a society with no moral compass to help enforce low birth rates.

Side note - who the fuck would intentionally try and kill their unborn child by taking up a meth habit. That requires someone who wasn't already on meth to think "hey, why not run the risk of getting addicted to meth in the process!".

 

[Sunburn74]

There are laws against prenatal abuse, including drug use.

If you aren't going to care about the kid enough to give up meth, get a fucking abortion, then a sterilization.

Abortion is legal. So if she pays a doctor, you're ok with it but if she does it herself accidently its not?

Also where does it end? If a woman decides to be in poor health, gain weight, have heart disease and diabetes and has a miscarriage should she go to jail for manslaughter? If she skips a few doctors appointments or doesn't take her prenatals? What if she refused the COVID vaccine and the fetus died of COVID (which is happening btw)?

Why stop at jailing these women? if she loses triplets, maybe you'd like to see her executed?

I think there was a case in alabama recently where even the alabamians realized it was ridiculous and dropped the case. BTW if anyone knows if there is a legal fund for this lady to donate to please post because I'd be happy to contribute.

 

[Zorba]

Miscarriage rates run about 15% in total, with age being the largest factor. Even if she doubled her risk with drug use, there is still a 50/50 chance the drug use wasn't the cause. In a criminal case for manslaughter, that = reasonable doubt.

Its no where near 15% at 17 weeks. The rate drops drastically with gestational age.

 

[Zorba]

Abortion is legal. So if she pays a doctor, you're ok with it but if she does it herself accidently its not?

Also where does it end? If a woman decides to be in poor health, gain weight, have heart disease and diabetes and has a miscarriage should she go to jail for manslaughter? If she skips a few doctors appointments or doesn't take her prenatals? What if she refused the COVID vaccine and the fetus died of COVID (which is happening btw)?

Why stop at jailing these women? if she loses triplets, maybe you'd like to see her executed?

I think there was a case in alabama recently where even the alabamians realized it was ridiculous and dropped the case. BTW if anyone knows if there is a legal fund for this lady to donate to please post because I'd be happy to contribute.

So you think its fine for women to take drugs while pregnant and give birth to premature babies that are addicted to drugs? With likely life long issues as a result?

 

[BoomerD]

WTF does that mean? And why would it matter?

Wimmenz have "natural" miscarriages for a variety of reasons.

If she intentionally caused the miscarriage NOT in a medical abortion setting, then it might fall under some kind of manslaughter classification.
Of course, wimmenz have been causing themselves to miscarry since there has been wimmenz...not many have ever been charged with a crime.

 

[SmCaudata]

So you think its fine for women to take drugs while pregnant and give birth to premature babies that are addicted to drugs? With likely life long issues as a result?

That's not what happened here. The fetal death may or may not have been the cause. She could have quit using before 3rd trimester for all we know.

The point is, you have to convict based on the laws as written. If we let prosecutors adjust them to fit their whims we are really in danger.

 

[Sunburn74]

So you think its fine for women to take drugs while pregnant and give birth to premature babies that are addicted to drugs? With likely life long issues as a result?

Yes. I have zero problems with women taking drugs and having complications related to the drugs. Women take prescription drugs sometimes and have complications related to those prescription drugs that lead to premature delivery. Almost all prescription drugs that women take pre-pregnancy they have to have an informed discussion with their doctor about continuing or stopping during pregnancy and they literally weigh their health vs the babies health. A good example is several seizure medications. They almost all cause birth defects but if the woman stops she could have a seizure and die. So she has to choose what to do. But almost all prescription medications have this decision in some form or the other. I could list probably a hundred common medications where the lady has to make a choice that could potentially lead to a premature baby or a major birth defect and etc.

I have no problem with women driving fast and killing their babies in accidents, or getting shot in robberies and killing their babies and etc, taking drugs and killing their babies. Prosecute them for breaking those laws but you can't allow legal abortion and prosecute women for losing fetuses.

 

[Meghan54]

There is a difference in an abortion and killing your fetus via meth use. I'm very much pro-choice, but have no problem jailing someone for shooting meth while pregnant.

Then prove that without a doubt. Trouble is, no one can, just like the OBGYN who testified for the state in her trial stated....there's no way to be sure the meth caused this. So I guess we're just going to put women in jail because we think the facts should be something other than they are. Gotcha.

 

[woolfe9998]

Its no where near 15% at 17 weeks. The rate drops drastically with gestational age.

I couldn't read the article because of the paywall, but that doesn't change my opinion on it. Beyond reasonable doubt is something like 90% certainty. No credible expert is going to say that it's 90%+ certain that the drug use caused the miscarriage.

 

[Zorba]

That's not what happened here. The fetal death may or may not have been the cause. She could have quit using before 3rd trimester for all we know.

The point is, you have to convict based on the laws as written. If we let prosecutors adjust them to fit their whims we are really in danger.

Not sure if you know this or not, but I wasn't on the jury.

But I don't have an issue with women facing punishment for fetal abuse. If you have no interest in being a decent mother at least long enough to give birth and put the kid up for adoption, get an abortion. Manslaughter might be a stretch, but some sort of fetal abuse, sure. Also, although miscarriages aren't rare, a 19 year-old having one at 17 weeks has very low probability (less than 1%). Yes, it could've been natural, but it very likely was the fucking meth in the fetus's brain.

 

[Zorba]

Yes. I have zero problems with women taking drugs and having complications related to the drugs. Women take prescription drugs sometimes and have complications related to those prescription drugs that lead to premature delivery. Almost all prescription drugs that women take pre-pregnancy they have to have an informed discussion with their doctor about continuing or stopping during pregnancy and they literally weigh their health vs the babies health. A good example is several seizure medications. They almost all cause birth defects but if the woman stops she could have a seizure and die. So she has to choose what to do. But almost all prescription medications have this decision in some form or the other. I could list probably a hundred common medications where the lady has to make a choice that could potentially lead to a premature baby or a major birth defect and etc.

I have no problem with women driving fast and killing their babies in accidents, or getting shot in robberies and killing their babies and etc, taking drugs and killing their babies. Prosecute them for breaking those laws but you can't allow legal abortion and prosecute women for losing fetuses.

You are right, anti-seizure medications are EXACTLY the same as shooting meth. I'm sure she had an informed discussion with her doctor about whether continuing to shoot meth was the right decision while pregnant. Give me a fucking break.

 

[Zorba]

Just to be clear. I don't think miscarriages should be investigated or prosecuted beyond normal tests. If those normal tests found the mom was shooting meth while pregnant, I don't have an issue with the book being thrown at her.

My wife had a late miscarriage, at 14 weeks, and they ran tests on the tissue as well. It's normal and in our case identified what caused the miscarriage.

 

[NWRMidnight]

So you think its fine for women to take drugs while pregnant and give birth to premature babies that are addicted to drugs? With likely life long issues as a result?

I think you are overlooking the addiction aspect of the problem. Addicts will sell their kids to get their next high, as getting high is the only thing that matters, with some overdosing and killing themselves. They can't even fathom the damage it's doing to their bodies, much less what it is doing to the baby inside their bodies. I am not going to sit here an educate you on what drugs do to addicts brains, how it destroys their reasoning skills, and how it effects judgement. But I urge you to go read up on it, so you can understand that charging an addict for murder after a miscarriage makes zero sense and will accomplish nothing.

You mentioned your wife, and the miscarriage' she had at 14 weeks. Hypothetically, what if those test came back and showed that something your wife ate/drank/took caused the death, something she didn't have to take/eat/drink, but chose to, lets says she chose to have some wine, and that's what did it, you would be okay with her having the book thrown at her? Keep in mind, choosing to have a glass of wine or eat something is a easy decision to do or not to do, unlike the decision a meth addict would have to make, as the addiction/drugs control them.

 

[Zorba]

I think you are overlooking the addiction aspect of the problem. Addicts will sell their kids to get their next high, as getting high is the only thing that matters, with some overdosing and killing themselves. They can't even fathom the damage it's doing to their bodies, much less what it is doing to the baby inside their bodies. I am not going to sit here an educate you on what drugs do to addicts brains, how it destroys their reasoning skills, and how it effects judgement. But I urge you to go read up on it, so you can understand that charging an addict for murder after a miscarriage makes zero sense and will accomplish nothing.

You mentioned your wife, and the miscarriage' she had at 14 weeks. Hypothetically, what if those test came back and showed that something your wife ate/drank/took caused the death, something she didn't have to take/eat/drink, but chose to, lets says she chose to have some wine, and that's what did it, you would be okay with her having the book thrown at her? Keep in mind, choosing to have a glass of wine or eat something is a easy decision to do or not to do, unlike the decision a meth addict would have to make, as the addiction/drugs control them.

I understand that addiction and what meth does to someone. I don't think they should be able to continuously pump out fucked up babies just because they are fucked up, either. I know there is a long history, bad history of forced sterilization and jailing isn't likely to cure her addiction, but there needs to be something besides "ah well, maybe the next one won't die and there will be a family willing to adopt the baby that'll have life long health and developmental issues."

One glass of wine or eating anything normal is not at all the same as shooting meth. But yes, if after my wife had her miscarriage if it was determined that fetus died because she was drinking a couple bottles of wine a day, throw the book at her. If she had an allergic reaction to a peanut butter sandwich, no, because again eating peanut butter is different than shooting meth.

Maybe I've just been around too many meth head parents, or maybe you all never have been, if you actually think taking prescribed medication under the supervision and advisement of doctors, or eating normal foods, is at all the same as doing illicit drugs while pregnant.

I'll pose a different hypothetical to you, if this woman had hit a kid with her car while strung out meth, should she be pushed for that? Same for @woolfe9998 I doubt you could prove with a 90% certainty that the DUI is what caused the accident.

 

[nickqt]

Not sure if you know this or not, but I wasn't on the jury.

But I don't have an issue with women facing punishment for fetal abuse. If you have no interest in being a decent mother at least long enough to give birth and put the kid up for adoption, get an abortion. Manslaughter might be a stretch, but some sort of fetal abuse, sure. Also, although miscarriages aren't rare, a 19 year-old having one at 17 weeks has very low probability (less than 1%). Yes, it could've been natural, but it very likely was the fucking meth in the fetus's brain.

So it should be legal for a woman who is 19 weeks pregnant to IV push meth and heroin at the same time, as long as she is planning on getting an abortion?

But it should be illegal for a woman who is 17 weeks pregnant to use meth if she is planning on having the baby?

Which police force do you want to create to monitor every woman for pregnancy and then every day after they test positive, in order to enforce this new law you want passed by this new police force?