Manslaughter Charge Over a Miscarriage ... OK.

[shortylickens]

Isnt it amazing how republicans can't control anything except a womans uterus?

 

[sportage]

And when this jury was told that their payroll taxes are going up 30% to house, feed, and educate these impoverished single mother and the babies, no doubt this republican jury were just fine with that. Ya think? Just like a good pro-life republican should. But we all know that was not the case. Instead, this jury then votes in politicians hell bent on cutting welfare. And these poor impoverished children from these poor impoverished mothers that republicans insisted be brought into this world will grow up in poverty, poorly educated, malnourished, stupid and ignorant. Just the very voters that people like Donald Trump are looking for.

 

[sandorski]

"Hot Asian Ladies" will soon be "Oklahoman Hotties" and the Red States will morph into Incelistan.

 

[Sunburn74]

You are right, anti-seizure medications are EXACTLY the same as shooting meth. I'm sure she had an informed discussion with her doctor about whether continuing to shoot meth was the right decision while pregnant. Give me a fucking break.

What difference does it make if its prescription drugs vs illegal drugs? If a women chooses to take seizure meds and it causes a major brain defect with the child how is that any different if she takes meth and it causes a major brain defect? Why shouldn't we charge her and the doctor with manslaughter?

If a woman refused a prescription drug or COVID vaccine and it caused the fetus to die would you arrest her for manslaughter? You realize that the basic principle being tested here with this case. If a woman drives fast and causes a wreck and her fetus dies, should she go to jail? Or if she had too many drinks? Or if she went to a packed house party without wearing a mask and got covid and lost the baby? Which behaviors are sufficiently irresponsible or neglectful enough to where a women should be charged with manslaughter for the loss of a fetus?

 

[Zorba]

So it should be legal for a woman who is 19 weeks pregnant to IV push meth and heroin at the same time, as long as she is planning on getting an abortion?

But it should be illegal for a woman who is 17 weeks pregnant to use meth if she is planning on having the baby?

Which police force do you want to create to monitor every woman for pregnancy and then every day after they test positive, in order to enforce this new law you want passed by this new police force?

What new law did I propose. This thread is people bitching about a current law and how women should face no punishment for fetal abuse that will result in life time impairment of the child if born.

I just feel if a woman is going to destroy the kid's life before it is born, she should do everyone a favor and get an abortion. If she chooses abuse there should be punishment for that. Just like if a parent beats an infant and causes long term consequences or death.

Again, I don't think manslaughter is the right charge, but there should be punishment for fetal abuse. 23 weeks probably is the right cut off for that, so maybe this woman should've been let go.

 

[Zorba]

What difference does it make if its prescription drugs vs illegal drugs? If a women chooses to take seizure meds and it causes a major brain defect with the child how is that any different if she takes meth and it causes a major brain defect? Why shouldn't we charge her and the doctor with manslaughter?

If a woman refused a prescription drug or COVID vaccine and it caused the fetus to die would you arrest her for manslaughter? You realize that the basic principle being tested here with this case. If a woman drives fast and causes a wreck and her fetus dies, should she go to jail? Or if she had too many drinks? Or if she went to a packed house party without wearing a mask and got covid and lost the baby? Which behaviors are sufficiently irresponsible or neglectful enough to where a women should be charged with manslaughter for the loss of a fetus?

So slippery slope argument?

Making an informed decision with a doctor about required medication is vastly different than IV drug use. If you can't see the difference then I'm not going to debate it with you.

 

[NWRMidnight]

I understand that addiction and what meth does to someone. I don't think they should be able to continuously pump out fucked up babies just because they are fucked up, either. I know there is a long history, bad history of forced sterilization and jailing isn't likely to cure her addiction, but there needs to be something besides "ah well, maybe the next one won't die and there will be a family willing to adopt the baby that'll have life long health and developmental issues."

One glass of wine or eating anything normal is not at all the same as shooting meth. But yes, if after my wife had her miscarriage if it was determined that fetus died because she was drinking a couple bottles of wine a day, throw the book at her. If she had an allergic reaction to a peanut butter sandwich, no, because again eating peanut butter is different than shooting meth.

Maybe I've just been around too many meth head parents, or maybe you all never have been, if you actually think taking prescribed medication under the supervision and advisement of doctors, or eating normal foods, is at all the same as doing illicit drugs while pregnant.

I'll pose a different hypothetical to you, if this woman had hit a kid with her car while strung out meth, should she be pushed for that? Same for @woolfe9998 I doubt you could prove with a 90% certainty that the DUI is what caused the accident.

Dude, my brother was an addict. My x-girlfriend of 6 years was a recovering addict who fell off the wagon after her mother died.. My step dad was a recovering alcoholic of 30+ years.. I am more than willing to sit down and compare notes about addict's and what it does to them and their choices.

What I gave you as a hypothesis (wine/food/etc) was an example, now where did I say it was the same.. But now you are just making excuses to support your anger about someone having a miscarriage which was "possibly" caused by something they did. Which I suspect is you lashing out because of your own loss, and I am deeply sorry about that, but it's misplaced anger.

Hitting a kid with a car is not the same as a fetus in side HER body, which is not born or a sustainable living being at 17 weeks yet. You want to argue that there is a difference between abortion, and women have the right to decide what to do with their body (abortion), but in the next breath you want to prosecute them for exercising that right and damaging their own body when they do something that caused a miscarriage's. YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS! It's either their body or it's not.. Which means if they chose to be a meth head or get an abortion, it's really comes down to the same argument.

But again, your position seems to be coming across from your own experience with your wife having a miscarriage, and again I am deeply sorry, but charging women who make poor choices when pregnant, causing them to have a miscarriage, won't change what happened to you.

 

[NWRMidnight]

So it should be legal for a woman who is 19 weeks pregnant to IV push meth and heroin at the same time, as long as she is planning on getting an abortion?

But it should be illegal for a woman who is 17 weeks pregnant to use meth if she is planning on having the baby?

Which police force do you want to create to monitor every woman for pregnancy and then every day after they test positive, in order to enforce this new law you want passed by this new police force?

A fetus is not viable and sustainable of life until 21 weeks, until you pass that point, the argument is the same no matter if it's 17 weeks or 19 weeks. (of course, unless you are in Texas, then you are fucked no matter what).

 

[Zorba]

Dude, my brother was an addict. My x-girlfriend of 6 years was a recovering addict who fell off the wagon after her mother died.. My step dad was a recovering alcoholic of 30+ years.. I am more than willing to sit down and compare notes about addict's and what it does to them and their choices.

What I gave you as a hypothesis (wine/food/etc) was an example, now where did I say it was the same.. But now you are just making excuses to support your anger about someone having a miscarriage which was "possibly" caused by something they did. Which I suspect is you lashing out because of your own loss, and I am deeply sorry about that, but it's misplaced anger.

Hitting a kid with a car is not the same as a fetus in side HER body, which is not born or a sustainable living being at 17 weeks yet. You want to argue that there is a difference between abortion, and women have the right to decide what to do with their body (abortion), but in the next breath you want to prosecute them for exercising that right and damaging their own body when they do something that caused a miscarriage's. YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS! It's either their body or it's not.. Which means if they chose to be a meth head or get an abortion, it's really comes down to the same argument.

But again, your position seems to be coming across from your own experience with your wife having a miscarriage, and again I am deeply sorry, but charging women who make poor choices when pregnant, causing them to have a miscarriage, won't change what happened to you.

My position has nothing to do with my past experience, that did noting but make me even more prochoice. My position comes from seeing babies born with life long health issues because their mom did drugs while pregnant.

There is a difference in a fetus that will be carried to term and one that will be aborted. If you are going to carry to term, you are impacting another person's life even if it has not yet started.

Again, I think this should fall under existing fetal abuse laws not manslaughter.

Also, I asked about the car accident situation since your stance appeared to be that addicts can't help it, not that a person should be able to do anything they want to a fetus until 23 weeks.

 

[Hail The Brain Slug]

My position has nothing to do with my past experience, that did noting but make me even more prochoice. My position comes from seeing babies born with life long health issues because their mom did drugs while pregnant.

There is a difference in a fetus that will be carried to term and one that will be aborted. If you are going to carry to term, you are impacting another person's life even if it has not yet started.

Again, I think this should fall under existing fetal abuse laws not manslaughter.

Also, I asked about the car accident situation since your stance appeared to be that addicts can't help it, not that a person should be able to do anything they want to a fetus until 23 weeks.

Bro, there's a major difference between drinking alcohol/smoking weed/using other drugs at home/friends house/crack den/etc. than carrying a fifth with you and taking swigs like you drive, which is the equivalent to your garbage hypothetical car accident scenario you're trying to make a false equivalency with.

 

[Zorba]

Bro, there's a major difference between drinking alcohol/smoking weed/using other drugs at home/friends house/crack den/etc. than carrying a fifth with you and taking swigs like you drive, which is the equivalent to your garbage hypothetical car accident scenario you're trying to make a false equivalency with.

We aren't talking about drinking in your den with friends in this thread are we? I thought we were talking about a woman shooting meth to the point it was found in the brain of her fetus, which most likely lead to a miscarriage. Shooting meth while pregnant is the equivalent of getting in a car sloppy drunk, the likelihood of a bad outcome is obvious to the point of being illegal.

@NWRMidnight was saying that addicts can't stop, which I agree with. I was trying to find out if he also thought they shouldn't be accountable.

 

[Zorba]

So if a guy assaulted a pregnant woman, and she had a miscarriage, should the man be charged with killing the fetus?

What if he drugged the woman?

 

[Paratus]

How can you determine the cause? They can charge her for drugs, but there are no laws that support the outcome. You can't charge people just because you feel like it.

Miscarriage rate by 17 weeks is very high. In fact, I'd bet that the spontaneous miscarriage rate is much higher than the rate that something bad happens due to meth.

Where would you draw the line?
Tobacco is worse for baby than meth probably.
Obesity in mom is bad.
Maternal age has a more profound effect.
Diabetes?

I could go on. Just because it makes you angry, doesn't mean it is, or should be, a manslaughter case.

I’ll repost this again.

The risk of miscarriage ranges from 1/6 to almost 5/6 depending on maternal age. So Russian Roulette at best to actually taking abortifacients at worst.

Virtually the biggest decision you can make that results in a miscarriage is trying to have kids.

 

[mect]

My position has nothing to do with my past experience, that did noting but make me even more prochoice. My position comes from seeing babies born with life long health issues because their mom did drugs while pregnant.

There is a difference in a fetus that will be carried to term and one that will be aborted. If you are going to carry to term, you are impacting another person's life even if it has not yet started.

Again, I think this should fall under existing fetal abuse laws not manslaughter.

Also, I asked about the car accident situation since your stance appeared to be that addicts can't help it, not that a person should be able to do anything they want to a fetus until 23 weeks.

It seems like the more logical procedure would be to only prosecute mothers that give birth to a child with defects caused by severe drug use while pregnant.

Or, in this case I could see charging the woman with drug crimes. But manslaughter makes no sense, since essentially if the drugs are at fault, she did get an abortion, which I believe is what you were saying a woman should do if she's pregnant and on drugs.

But either way, a four year prison sentence helps no one. Get her in drug rehab.

 

[SmCaudata]

It seems like the more logical procedure would be to only prosecute mothers that give birth to a child with defects caused by severe drug use while pregnant.

Or, in this case I could see charging the woman with drug crimes. But manslaughter makes no sense, since essentially if the drugs are at fault, she did get an abortion, which I believe is what you were saying a woman should do if she's pregnant and on drugs.

But either way, a four year prison sentence helps no one. Get her in drug rehab.

Well, it helps the private prison system make more money at taxpayer expense...

 

[NWRMidnight]

My position has nothing to do with my past experience, that did noting but make me even more prochoice. My position comes from seeing babies born with life long health issues because their mom did drugs while pregnant.

There is a difference in a fetus that will be carried to term and one that will be aborted. If you are going to carry to term, you are impacting another person's life even if it has not yet started.

Again, I think this should fall under existing fetal abuse laws not manslaughter.

Also, I asked about the car accident situation since your stance appeared to be that addicts can't help it, not that a person should be able to do anything they want to a fetus until 23 weeks.

You claim you understand what addiction and meth does to a person, then you throw out shit like this, which tells me that you don't have a clue. Go educate yourself for real about addiction, what it does to a person so you can understand what I was telling you. That way you are not taking my words out of context and manipulating what I said because you don't understand anything. Also, we are not talking about birth defects,, we are talking about manslaughter for a miscarriage, which is a completely different argument you are trying to mash up into this argument. (mect's response is on point btw when it comes to addicts who's drug use leads to birth defects).

Doing drugs, damaging their body (pregnant or not) is no way, shape, or form the same as driving under the influence and hitting someone with their car and killing them. You are pulling shit out of your ass, because you have no legitimate response so you have to resort to implying I said something I never said at all, and trying to say I am taking a stance that I never took. You are trying to take what I said about getting high and the reasoning skills, judgement skills involved in getting that next high, and applying them to a completely different argument and scenario. AKA you are taking my words completely out of context. That is manipulation and lying, either on purpose or because you are uneducated about addiction and don't know any better. The fact that you correlate the addiction (needing that constant high) and the action of taking drugs which "possibly" resulted in a miscarriage's, to a person high (they already took the drugs) , driving down the road hitting someone with a car and killing them, meaning in your mind, they are the same thing shows that you are uneducated and really don't have a clue about what you are trying to argue. You are basically just throwing shit against the wall in hopes it sticks.

 

[NWRMidnight]

We aren't talking about drinking in your den with friends in this thread are we? I thought we were talking about a woman shooting meth to the point it was found in the brain of her fetus, which most likely lead to a miscarriage. Shooting meth while pregnant is the equivalent of getting in a car sloppy drunk, the likelihood of a bad outcome is obvious to the point of being illegal.

Dude, a single hit of meth, a single glass of wine, and single intake of any substance, even food can effect the fetus. you are pulling shit out of your ass just to argue, and no, shooting up while pregnant is not the same as driving under the influence.

@NWRMidnight was saying that addicts can't stop, which I agree with. I was trying to find out if he also thought they shouldn't be accountable.

Why? Why are you asking about something completely different, and taking what I said out of context and applying them to a completely unrelated subject that are not even close to being the same? Sounds like manipulation to me.

 

[Sunburn74]

So slippery slope argument?

Making an informed decision with a doctor about required medication is vastly different than IV drug use. If you can't see the difference then I'm not going to debate it with you.

Its not the slippery slope argument. I'm actually asking you to just test the basic principle at play. Is irresponsible behavior during pregnancy, particularly early in pregnancy cause for manslaughter?

Manslaughter laws are pretty clear. If I drive over the speed limit and kill a 24 year old man inadvertently, I am guilty. If I do drugs and kill someone in a drug laden state, I am guilty. If I'm cleaning my gun and don't take good precautions and shoot someone to death by accident, I am guilty. These are not slippery concepts/positions in modern society. All I'm asking you to do is to substitute me for a pregnant woman and the 24 year old man with a fetus in each of these well defined situations and see if your basic principle holds up about charging pregnant women with manslaughter.

Like I said Alabama had a case last year where a pregnant woman decided to commit a violent crime, got shot and lost the fetus as a consequence of the crime. They briefly thought about charging her for manslaughter but dropped the case because it was clearly ridiculous. That case was probably even more clear cut in terms of cause and effect than this meth case in my opinion. It seems that you generally agree. I think fetal abuse could be a law after a certain time but I would put that time as the point where she is no longer allowed to have an abortion based on the state law.

 

[Zorba]

Its not the slippery slope argument. I'm actually asking you to just test the basic principle at play. Is irresponsible behavior during pregnancy, particularly early in pregnancy cause for manslaughter?

Manslaughter laws are pretty clear. If I drive over the speed limit and kill a 24 year old man inadvertently, I am guilty. If I do drugs and kill someone in a drug laden state, I am guilty. If I'm cleaning my gun and don't take good precautions and shoot someone to death by accident, I am guilty. These are not slippery concepts/positions in modern society. All I'm asking you to do is to substitute me for a pregnant woman and the 24 year old man with a fetus in each of these well defined situations and see if your basic principle holds up about charging pregnant women with manslaughter.

Like I said Alabama had a case last year where a pregnant woman decided to commit a violent crime, got shot and lost the fetus as a consequence of the crime. They briefly thought about charging her for manslaughter but dropped the case because it was clearly ridiculous. That case was probably even more clear cut in terms of cause and effect than this meth case in my opinion. It seems that you generally agree. I think fetal abuse could be a law after a certain time but I would put that time as the point where she is no longer allowed to have an abortion based on the state law.

Yeah, I'm coming around. I think @mect hit it right.

I think there should be fetal abuse laws that are enforced. I do think manslaughter here is an over reach, but maybe not at 30 weeks. I do think those laws should be concise and focus on things that will obviously have a high probability of effecting the born child, like drug use, heavy drinking, maybe boxing, etc. I think speeding is a big stretch though.

Everything to do with prenatal crime is a massive grey area though. If you arent carrying to term it is a useless clump of cells, but if you are then its the foundation of a human. There is also high up front risk of spontaneous abortion that drops dramatically with gestational age, so things that cause a miscarriage or stillbirth later can be seen differently than earlier on.

The flip side, if this woman was done everything right and the fetus was completely healthy, until her boyfriend beat the shit out of her and she had a miscarriage should he be charged with anything other than assaulting her?

 

[SmCaudata]

Yeah, I'm coming around. I think @mect hit it right.

I think there should be fetal abuse laws that are enforced. I do think manslaughter here is an over reach, but maybe not at 30 weeks. I do think those laws should be concise and focus on things that will obviously have a high probability of effecting the born child, like drug use, heavy drinking, maybe boxing, etc. I think speeding is a big stretch though.

Everything to do with prenatal crime is a massive grey area though. If you arent carrying to term it is a useless clump of cells, but if you are then its the foundation of a human. There is also high up front risk of spontaneous abortion that drops dramatically with gestational age, so things that cause a miscarriage or stillbirth later can be seen differently than earlier on.

The flip side, if this woman was done everything right and the fetus was completely healthy, until her boyfriend beat the shit out of her and she had a miscarriage should he be charged with anything other than assaulting her?

Past the point of viability, he should be charged. She gets to make decisions but her body he wouldn't. Incidentally, all domestic violence should be treated like a vulnerable group similar to child and elder abuse.