Many med schools halt no-consent pelvic exams

[gopunk]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/134651365_pelvic12.html

i can't believe this was actually going on....

 

[Electrode]

That's... odd.

 

[MisfitsFiend]

wow...that's just wrong!!

-mf

 

[Orsorum]

Those bastards! I knew my ass wasn't supposed to hurt after a dental exam!

 

[Viper GTS]

If they were going in for surgery in that area, WTF did they expect the students to do?

Look at their teeth?

Viper GTS

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: Zakath15
Those bastards! I knew my ass wasn't supposed to hurt after a dental exam!

You learn something new every day I guess. What, you think that's a pneumatic chair that's lifting you up?

But that pelvic exam thing - that's just terrible. "Ok guys, she's unconscious, come on in and have a peek!" I bet that if there was anything like this going on with guys - people coming in and fiddling with...the fiddle while the guy's anesthetized - there'd probably have been murders over it.

 

[Viper GTS]

Originally posted by: Jeff7

Originally posted by: Zakath15
Those bastards! I knew my ass wasn't supposed to hurt after a dental exam!

You learn something new every day I guess. What, you think that's a pneumatic chair that's lifting you up?

But that pelvic exam thing - that's just terrible. "Ok guys, she's unconscious, come on in and have a peek!" I bet that if there was anything like this going on with guys - people coming in and fiddling with...the fiddle while the guy's anesthetized - there'd probably have been murders over it.

PHILADELPHIA ? Some of the nation's leading medical schools have abandoned a little-known, decades-old practice of letting students perform pelvic exams on women under anesthesia for gynecological surgeries without obtaining the patient's consent.

If you go in for oral surgery, & agree to have a student present, are you going to bitch if that student examines your teeth?

Common sense, people!

Viper GTS

 

[dpm]

Viper - the point seems to be that they didn't agree to have students present - the students came in and started practising after they were unconscious.

The article states that at some hospitals patients are informed that "students will be part of their care team" but even that shouldn't necessarily allow them to use you as a test bed for unrelated procedures. This implies that most didn't even do that. They should be forced to ask for implicit permission to do this.
To put this into internet terms; this should be opt-in. Not "Hey - you posted to an online forum! You should expect everyone to spam you to hell because of that!"

 

[godmare]

.....while studies show most women will give their consent, doctors are afraid to ask.

Doctors shouldn't be the bashful ones in medical situations, especially where consent may be prerequisite.

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: dpm
Viper - the point seems to be that they <STRONG>didn't</STRONG> agree to have students present - the students came in and started practising after they were unconscious.

The article states that at <STRONG>some</STRONG> hospitals patients are informed that "students will be part of their care team" but even that shouldn't necessarily allow them to use you as a test bed for unrelated procedures. This implies that most didn't even do that. They should be forced to ask for implicit permission to do this.
To put this into internet terms; this should be <STRONG>opt-in</STRONG>. Not "Hey - you posted to an online forum! You should <STRONG>expect</STRONG> everyone to spam you to hell because of that!"

Spam you? No, I think in this case, it would be more like "Hey, you posted in an online forum! We're just going to mosy around in your PC a little bit to see what you're running."

 

[dpm]

Originally posted by: Jeff7

Originally posted by: dpm Viper - the point seems to be that they didn't agree to have students present - the students came in and started practising after they were unconscious. The article states that at some hospitals patients are informed that "students will be part of their care team" but even that shouldn't necessarily allow them to use you as a test bed for unrelated procedures. This implies that most didn't even do that. They should be forced to ask for implicit permission to do this. To put this into internet terms; this should be opt-in. Not "Hey - you posted to an online forum! You should expect everyone to spam you to hell because of that!"

Spam you? No, I think in this case, it would be more like "Hey, you posted in an online forum! We're just going to mosy around in your PC a little bit to see what you're running."

ok - better analogy. Now why didn't i think of that?

 

[tcsenter]

Viper - the point seems to be that they didn't agree to have students present - the students came in and started practising after they were unconscious.

Well the students don't just 'come in and start practicing' at their leisure. They are directed or given permission to do so by the attending physician and/or surgical resident.

Usually the students follow the patient from pre-op or even from their hospital rooms. There they have an opportunity to introduce themselves, or be introduced by the resident and/or the attending physician. At that time it is disclosed they will be following the patient and participating in the procedure.

That is how it is 'supposed' to work, anyway, there are times it doesn't work like that because the students are held-up in class, or some other reason, and do not get the opportunity to consult with the patient before they are put under anesthesia. The attending physician or resident doesn't disclose it before hand many times because they don't know that students are assigned to their case, or they forget.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: Zakath15
Those bastards! I knew my ass wasn't supposed to hurt after a dental exam!

Well how else were they suppose to get to your teeth.

 

[pandapanda]

I think that most women would be extremely upset if they knew that a line of students had come and given them a vaginal exam without permission, without their knowledge. One student, maybe not a big deal, but the article says that the students themselves were basically lined up, everyone got to check it out, and then they left. No valid reason for them to be in there, especially since they weren't involved in the care of the patient.

How would you guys like it if you went in for a hemorrhoid removal and a line of 8 or 9 students got to do an anal exam on you just to see what it felt like--no one told you, no one got your permission. Wouldn't that be great?

 

[tcsenter]

How would you guys like it if you went in for a hemorrhoid removal and a line of 8 or 9 students got to do an anal exam on you just to see what it felt like--no one told you, no one got your permission. Wouldn't that be great?

They're medical students, not passerbyers off the street or your coworkers.

As long as they're medical students who are there under supervision with permission from the physician, and not the janitorial staff sneaking in while nobody else is there, I don't see what the big deal is.

Medical education is absolutely a valid reason for medical students to be anywhere and everywhere that medical procedures are performed. Consent should become a mandatory part of the forms you sign for consent to medical treatment. No consent to the presence of medical students = no procedure. Sorry.

 

[Viper GTS]

Originally posted by: dpm
Viper - the point seems to be that they <STRONG>didn't</STRONG> agree to have students present - the students came in and started practising after they were unconscious.

The article states that at <STRONG>some</STRONG> hospitals patients are informed that "students will be part of their care team" but even that shouldn't necessarily allow them to use you as a test bed for unrelated procedures. This implies that most didn't even do that. They should be forced to ask for implicit permission to do this.
To put this into internet terms; this should be <STRONG>opt-in</STRONG>. Not "Hey - you posted to an online forum! You should <STRONG>expect</STRONG> everyone to spam you to hell because of that!"

Read the article again:

There still are many other medical schools that only get general consent to have a student present during the surgery, including the University of Washington.

I would agree that having students present without any consent isn't a great idea, but in cases where the patient agreed to allow students there should be NO problems with the students having a look.

That's what they're there for.

Viper GTS

 

[dpm]

Originally posted by: Viper GTS
Read the article again: There still are many other medical schools that only get general consent to have a student present during the surgery, including the University of Washington. I would agree that having students present without any consent isn't a great idea, but in cases where the patient agreed to allow students there should be NO problems with the students having a look. That's what they're there for. Viper GTS

Ah, you're right - I misread it. My bad. Still, I think that explicit consent should be the norm in these kind of situations. A patient should be fully aware of what is happening to him/her in all situations.

 

[pandapanda]

Originally posted by: tcsenter

How would you guys like it if you went in for a hemorrhoid removal and a line of 8 or 9 students got to do an anal exam on you just to see what it felt like--no one told you, no one got your permission. Wouldn't that be great?

They're medical students, not passerbyers off the street or your coworkers.

As long as they're medical students who are there under supervision with permission from the physician, and not the janitorial staff sneaking in while nobody else is there, I don't see what the big deal is.

Medical education is absolutely a valid reason for medical students to be anywhere and everywhere that medical procedures are performed. Consent should become a mandatory part of the forms you sign for consent to medical treatment. No consent to the presence of medical students = no procedure. Sorry.

Ok, so are you agreeing with me or disagreeing? I understand that the students need opportunity to learn. But should they have that opportunity without the patient's knowledge or consent? I don't think so. I don't think people lose the right to decide who is feeling them up just because they are knocked out--heck if you did, then date rape drugs wouldn't be a problem.