Mass Shooting at Dark Knight Rises Premier in Aurora Colorado (12 Dead, 59 Injured)

[PJABBER]

http://journals.lww.com/jtrauma/Cit..._Gun_Deaths_A_Year__What_Is_Our_Role_.11.aspx

Since you double posted, let me also make a point in this thread as well that the article you reference does not support the claim being made.

The claim seems to be originated by Bill Weir for ABC here and whole lot of left wing and progressive media outlets and forum dwellers have popped up like gophers and just happen to use those exact same words.

Not a single one of whom, however, seems to have a link to the actual study.

Can you link the actual study where this conclusion is drawn from, because I sure can't from a cursory Google search.

 

[Capt Caveman]

I'm not doubting you out of hand but could you link a source?

Original Earl posted a link to my first stat below your post.

On the second one, US Gun Shops outnumbering McDonalds 9 to 1, it was on ABC new Saturday night.

I found this post in another forum that also mentions it - http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?p=876840

From this link, there are 14,000 McDonalds http://ezlocal.com/blog/post/10-Largest-Fast-Food-Chains-in-the-US.aspx

Based on 123k number below, it's 9 to 1

This link says that there are as many gun dealers as gas stations in the US - http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/07/movie-theater-shooting-prompts-gun-control-debate/

According to the latest numbers of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, there are 123,000 licensed firearms dealers in the United States, meaning there are roughly as many gun dealers as there are gas stations.

 

[PJABBER]

Original Earl posted a link to my first stat below your post.

A study in the Journal of Trauma and Acute Care Surgery found that the gun murder rate in the U.S. is almost 20 times higher than the next 22 richest and most populous nations combined.
Among the world’s 23 wealthiest countries, 80 percent of all gun deaths are American deaths and 87 percent of all kids killed by guns are American kids.

Do you have a link to the particular study cited by Weir at ABC that extrapolates this claim?

You and many others have posted his comment verbatim as fact, yet it was unsubstantiated by Weir and I still have not had anyone provide a link to the study it purportedly derives from.

 

[Gunslinger08]

Well there is no one solution that will completely stop something like this from ever happening again. What we want to achieve is take action that impacts the least amount of people and have the greatest result. In business, we call it 80/20 rules. Take on the least costly 20% that will achieve 80% of the result.

From you list of things, it's not hard to see what is the least impact, easiest to implement and most reasonable. Semi-automatic weapons with large capacity magazine, why is that event needed? Just making the sales/manufacturing of both semi-automatic weapon and ammo illegal, you can wipe out a big percent of the available functional weapon available, not many people would store large amount of ammo at home. And in 10, 20 years, existing stock would be retired or unusable. And why do you even worry about future gun control. Each future proposal will and should be evaluated on it's own merit independent of this semi-auto weapon ban. Getting semi-automatic weapon banned, which has happened in the past already, should not impact any future gun control regulation. NRA and the like are just using that as an excuse.

Are you suggesting we should ban the manufacture of ammo completely? Or do you think that semi-auto guns use different ammo?

 

[Exterous]

Original Earl posted a link to my first stat below your post.

On the second one, US Gun Shops outnumbering McDonalds 9 to 1, it was on ABC new Saturday night.

This link says that there are as many gun dealers as gas stations in the US

Interesting. Out of curiosity does the law only require 1 per business location or is it one per person working in that business that would be selling a gun?

 

[boomerang]

Well there is no one solution that will completely stop something like this from ever happening again. What we want to achieve is take action that impacts the least amount of people and have the greatest result. In business, we call it 80/20 rules. Take on the least costly 20% that will achieve 80% of the result.

From you list of things, it's not hard to see what is the least impact, easiest to implement and most reasonable. Semi-automatic weapons with large capacity magazine, why is that event needed? Just making the sales/manufacturing of both semi-automatic weapon and ammo illegal, you can wipe out a big percent of the available functional weapon available, not many people would store large amount of ammo at home. And in 10, 20 years, existing stock would be retired or unusable. And why do you even worry about future gun control. Each future proposal will and should be evaluated on it's own merit independent of this semi-auto weapon ban. Getting semi-automatic weapon banned, which has happened in the past already, should not impact any future gun control regulation. NRA and the like are just using that as an excuse.

Who is "we"?

 

[Orignal Earl]

Can you link the actual study where this conclusion is drawn from, because I sure can't from a cursory Google search.

I admit I first read about this on reddit and then looked up the organisation and they appeared to be legit.
I can't find the actual study either
I'm pretty sure though that any evidence is going to be linked to some left wing nutters conspiracy and dismissed

 

[Orignal Earl]

If this guy was a Muslim instead of a camp counselor for Jewish Big Brothers and Sister does anyone doubt the way this tragedy would be discussed here

 

[yuppiejr]

Well there is no one solution that will completely stop something like this from ever happening again. What we want to achieve is take action that impacts the least amount of people and have the greatest result. In business, we call it 80/20 rules. Take on the least costly 20% that will achieve 80% of the result.

From you list of things, it's not hard to see what is the least impact, easiest to implement and most reasonable. Semi-automatic weapons with large capacity magazine, why is that event needed? Just making the sales/manufacturing of both semi-automatic weapon and ammo illegal, you can wipe out a big percent of the available functional weapon available, not many people would store large amount of ammo at home. And in 10, 20 years, existing stock would be retired or unusable. And why do you even worry about future gun control. Each future proposal will and should be evaluated on it's own merit independent of this semi-auto weapon ban. Getting semi-automatic weapon banned, which has happened in the past already, should not impact any future gun control regulation. NRA and the like are just using that as an excuse.

So your logic is that by making something illegal you will deter people from acquiring and using/reselling it. How's that war on drugs going? How are the violent crime rates in the UK since their ban?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm

Also, properly stored ammunition can last half a century or more and remain completely viable. You obviously know little about firearms and ammunition but don't let that stop you from having an uninformed opinion to share with the rest of us.

By your logic we should also consider a ban on pickup trucks, had the driver in this story not had the ability to load so many people in his vehicle at once the scope of the tragety would have been greatly reduced:

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...sengers-slams-into-trees-in-texas?pc=25&sp=25

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

Original Earl posted a link to my first stat below your post.

On the second one, US Gun Shops outnumbering McDonalds 9 to 1, it was on ABC new Saturday night.

I found this post in another forum that also mentions it - http://www.derbytrail.com/forums/showthread.php?p=876840

From this link, there are 14,000 McDonalds http://ezlocal.com/blog/post/10-Largest-Fast-Food-Chains-in-the-US.aspx

Based on 123k number below, it's 9 to 1

This link says that there are as many gun dealers as gas stations in the US - http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/07/movie-theater-shooting-prompts-gun-control-debate/

That is NOT correct. A licensee doesn't equal a dealer. The actual details available from the ATF show that 61,000 out of the 128,000 currently licensed are Type 03, which is a Curio and Relic license holder. They are expressly forbidden from conducting transactions as a dealer. It's for collectors of 50 year old+ weapons only. So there goes half of what they are talking about.

 

[Bowfinger]

That is NOT correct. A licensee doesn't equal a dealer. The actual details available from the ATF show that 61,000 out of the 128,000 currently licensed are Type 03, which is a Curio and Relic license holder. They are expressly forbidden from conducting transactions as a dealer. It's for collectors of 50 year old+ weapons only. So there goes half of what they are talking about.

This is second hand information, but based on discussions with friends who are avid shooters, there are a fair number of individuals who get these licenses simply because it allows them to buy guns and ammunition at a significant discount. It's expensive and requires a thorough background check, but it's worth it for someone buying several guns in a year. To whatever extent my understanding is correct, that would also significantly inflate the 128K figure.

 

[Jaskalas]

If this guy was a Muslim instead of a camp counselor for Jewish Big Brothers and Sister does anyone doubt the way this tragedy would be discussed here

First I've heard of any religion in this topic. You got something to share?

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

This is second hand information, but based on discussions with friends who are avid shooters, there are a fair number of individuals who get these licenses simply because it allows them to buy guns and ammunition at a significant discount. It's expensive and requires a thorough background check, but it's worth it for someone buying several guns in a year. To whatever extent my understanding is correct, that would also significantly inflate the 128K figure.

It doesn't allow you to buy guns (the law is either guns that are 50 years old, or on an exempt list) any cheaper, but you do get discounts at various vendors (Grafs, Midway, etc.). So yeah, there are a lot of people that have them that have 0 interest in guns, but use it for discounts at places that carry other items they want. I've been guilty of that too Had an 03 and used it to buy clothes and sunglasses at a huge discount.

 

[Bowfinger]

It doesn't allow you to buy guns (the law is either guns that are 50 years old, or on an exempt list) any cheaper, but you do get discounts at various vendors (Grafs, Midway, etc.). So yeah, there are a lot of people that have them that have 0 interest in guns, but use it for discounts at places that carry other items they want. I've been guilty of that too Had an 03 and used it to buy clothes and sunglasses at a huge discount.

To clarify, I don't believe my friends are talking about the '03' license you mention, but rather a standard dealer license. They were definitely NOT talking about 50 year old guns.

Edit: Also, after a quick look at the ATF web site, I see that pawn shops are required to have a dealer license if they sell any guns. That makes sense, but I hadn't thought of that before. It also appears that each individual location of a chain store, e.g., Wal-Mart, needs its own licenses. Both factors would increase the license count significantly.

 

[yuppiejr]

This is second hand information, but based on discussions with friends who are avid shooters, there are a fair number of individuals who get these licenses simply because it allows them to buy guns and ammunition at a significant discount. It's expensive and requires a thorough background check, but it's worth it for someone buying several guns in a year. To whatever extent my understanding is correct, that would also significantly inflate the 128K figure.

This is accurate.... and frankly, is there some reason having a lot of LICENSED dealers in the country is a bad thing?

It's a purposefully inflamatory use of statistics comparing a broad category of business to a specific franchise... but whatever makes a sensational talking point for the newsbiters out there.

A fairer comparison would be to consider the number of resturaunts open to the public in the country versus the number of FFL dealerships who operate a retail/for profit business.

 

[Zargon]

Are you suggesting we should ban the manufacture of ammo completely? Or do you think that semi-auto guns use different ammo?

(not aimed at you joshsquall)
yeah lets jump unemployment even higher by shutting down all ammo manufacturers in the US

that will be great for the DOD's budget, Im sure china would love to sell our army some ammo that will 'work great'

This is accurate.... and frankly, is there some reason having a lot of LICENSED dealers in the country is a bad thing?

It's a purposefully inflamatory use of statistics comparing a broad category of business to a specific franchise... but whatever makes a sensational talking point for the newsbiters out there.

A fairer comparison would be to consider the number of resturaunts open to the public in the country versus the number of FFL dealerships who operate a retail/for profit business.

I also know handfulls of FFL's(I know alot of cops)

2 of them operate and actual business, out of a home, the rest just have them because they like/collect and its easier than having to use an FFL

it also recently became MUCH MUCH more difficult to obtain and maintain your FFL(and more expensive)




from abc link:

“All the ammunition he possessed, he possessed legally, all the weapons he possessed, he possessed legally, all the clips he possessed, he possessed legally,” Oates said. As far as investigators know now, Holmes had a clean background, with the exception of a single traffic ticket.

The right to bear arms is a constitutionally protected right in America, and in Colorado, the laws aren’t very strict. Background checks are required for purchases at gun shows, under an initiative voted into law after the Columbine shootings in 2000. However, there is no ban on assault weapons or high capacity ammunition clips. Registration and gun owner licenses aren’t required, and background checks for online sales aren’t required.

Advocates of increased gun control laws point to events like this one as evidence that the nation needs to adopt stricter laws about who can buy firearms, and what firearms they can buy.

so they are saying what, traffic ticket = no guns? guy had a clean background, he literally so far appears to be the perfect terrorist. completely clean, no obvious signs of mental health to get him flagged or have run ins with the cops

the only way to 'stop him' would be to utterly oppress the entire citizenry, which is what most of the government wants and half the citizens seem to ACHE for so they can 'feel safe' at night

 

[Orignal Earl]

First I've heard of any religion in this topic. You got something to share?

I think I pretty much covered it

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

To clarify, I don't believe my friends are talking about the '03' license you mention, but rather a standard dealer license. They were definitely NOT talking about 50 year old guns.

Gotcha. I know in the past few years the ATF has cracked down on 01 FFLs who are "dealers" but are not active. Kitchen table FFLs if you will. I personally wouldn't find it worth the hassle and random inspections which 03s generally aren't part of.

 

[xj0hnx]

To clarify, I don't believe my friends are talking about the '03' license you mention, but rather a standard dealer license. They were definitely NOT talking about 50 year old guns.

Laws were changed a few years ago to ferret out "Table top", and "out of truck" dealers, nowadays I believe you have to have a physical store front in order to maintain a FFL. For a long time this was quite a common practice, get a FFL, and buy guns, and ammo at dealer cost, but too many people fucked it up.

 

[Bowfinger]

Laws were changed a few years ago to ferret out "Table top", and "out of truck" dealers, nowadays I believe you have to have a physical store front in order to maintain a FFL. For a long time this was quite a common practice, get a FFL, and buy guns, and ammo at dealer cost, but too many people fucked it up.

Could be. The summary stuff I read talked about physical business location, but didn't say anything about that location being a personal residence. That could be somewhere in the details, however. Certainly there are inspection and records-keeping requirements that would discourage casual applications.

 

[Zargon]

Laws were changed a few years ago to ferret out "Table top", and "out of truck" dealers, nowadays I believe you have to have a physical store front in order to maintain a FFL. For a long time this was quite a common practice, get a FFL, and buy guns, and ammo at dealer cost, but too many people fucked it up.

you can have a home store front still but you have to be open to inspection and have some safes ETC and they will inspect you

you cant have flimsy gun cabinets in your garage and think you are OK

 

[OutHouse]

To clarify, I don't believe my friends are talking about the '03' license you mention, but rather a standard dealer license. They were definitely NOT talking about 50 year old guns.

Edit: Also, after a quick look at the ATF web site, I see that pawn shops are required to have a dealer license if they sell any guns. That makes sense, but I hadn't thought of that before. It also appears that each individual location of a chain store, e.g., Wal-Mart, needs its own licenses. Both factors would increase the license count significantly.

not true. if you deal in guns prior to 1898 you do not need a FFL. the feds dont give a shit about antiques and not subject to the provisions of either the Gun Control Act of 1968 or the National Firearms Act of 1934. hell you can even own a hand crank Gatling gun or a Napoleon canon if you really wanted one.

 

[Jaskalas]

not true. if you deal in guns prior to 1898 you do not need a FFL. the feds dont give a shit about muskets or old lever action repeaters.

Now there's a mental image. 2nd amendmant only applies to muskets. :hmm:

 

[Throckmorton]

Here come the gun grabbers. Following this article's logic, not even cops should carry guns because it only causes bad guys to buy bulletproof vests.

http://www.slate.com/articles/healt...swat_gear_and_body_armor_refute_the_nra_.html

 

[Londo_Jowo]

not true. if you deal in guns prior to 1898 you do not need a FFL. the feds dont give a shit about antiques and not subject to the provisions of either the Gun Control Act of 1968 or the National Firearms Act of 1934. hell you can even own a hand crank Gatling gun or a Napoleon canon if you really wanted one.

They clearly state such on Pawn Stars, they will not buy or sell a gun unless it's manufactured prior to 1898.