Mass Shooting in Louisville Downtown

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Leeea

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2020
3,690
5,424
136
Regarding mental health vs firearm arguments, I'm reminded of this climate change comic.
View attachment 89330

Treating the mental health of America would pay dividends, and there's no political resistance to it (at least not at this point in time). I find it rather ridiculous to even consider gun control in America at this point in time.
There is massive political resistance to it.

First off, it cost money. Lots of $$$. So yea. Nobody wants to spend the tax dollars needed.

Secondly, it requires societal change. It requires monitoring of children and the conditions they live in. Nobody is going to allow that. We live in a country where one letter and you can pull your child from school to "home school" where nobody ever sees them again.

Third, it requires actually funding schools. None of this 1 teacher for 50 students stuff. It requires funding special needs programs. It requires actually paying people who provide those programs what they are worth.


Nobody wants to pay teachers what they are worth. What are you, communist?

Heck, nobody even wants to give kids a free school lunch.
 
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ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
37,964
18,279
146
It's almost like they were inherited…

Not just inherited, perpetuated thru seemingly innocuous behaviors. For instance, religion tells people from day one they’re broken and will never be good enough…but if you just try hard enough then maybe some omnipotent creator won’t damn you to endless torment in hell. But being told these things creates self hate because failure to live up to perfection is inevitable. Self hate generally externalizes as fear, hate, and violence. While we as a country are “losing” our religion, religious influence will live on for generations
 
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Leeea

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2020
3,690
5,424
136
Regarding mental health vs firearm arguments, I'm reminded of this climate change comic.
View attachment 89330

Treating the mental health of America would pay dividends, and there's no political resistance to it (at least not at this point in time). I find it rather ridiculous to even consider gun control in America at this point in time.
actually, it gets worse then what I previously posted.

We don't even feed our kids:


and it turns out not feeding people is associated with mental health issues:
Food insecurity is associated with a 257% higher risk of anxiety and a 253% higher risk of depression.


What the fuck are we doing?
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,576
12,686
146
I like this jpeg. However, I think there’s already political resistance to it from the conservative side of things. While they throw out as a red herring when JAMS occurs, they certainly aren’t sincere in their concern….and if you take them up on it they will almost certainly fight you the whole way.

Mental health problems as we know are built into much of our society from day 1
So call them out on it, either you get ammunition to change gun laws, or you get ammunition to change mental health. Win win.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,576
12,686
146
There is massive political resistance to it.

First off, it cost money. Lots of $$$. So yea. Nobody wants to spend the tax dollars needed.

Secondly, it requires societal change. It requires monitoring of children and the conditions they live in. Nobody is going to allow that. We live in a country where one letter and you can pull your child from school to "home school" where nobody ever sees them again.

Third, it requires actually funding schools. None of this 1 teacher for 50 students stuff. It requires funding special needs programs. It requires actually paying people who provide those programs what they are worth.


Nobody wants to pay teachers what they are worth. What are you, communist?

Heck, nobody even wants to give kids a free school lunch.
You don't change society through enforcement, you change it through gradual change. But you do have to start somewhere, just railing against the inanimate objects doesn't get you anywhere in our society.
 
Reactions: Leeea

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,576
12,686
146
actually, it gets worse then what I previously posted.

We don't even feed our kids:


and it turns out not feeding people is associated with mental health issues:



What the fuck are we doing?
Yup, food security should be our number 1. Free food at every public school, quadruple WIC eligibility at minimum.
 
Reactions: ch33zw1z

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
37,964
18,279
146
Yup, food security should be our number 1. Free food at every public school, quadruple WIC eligibility at minimum.

Yep. I recall a documentary about food waste that claimed an estimated 30-40% of our food is simply tossed because it isn’t pretty enough
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,675
6,194
126
It's like there is no one on earth that has dealt with this problem before...

Yup, no biggie here. All you have to do is face the consequences of passing a ban that millions will hear as you attempting to allow them to be murdered in their beds not the mention the boost in the economy by the opening of police jobs and the sales of coffins. 89iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
I like this jpeg. However, I think there’s already political resistance to it from the conservative side of things. While they throw out as a red herring when JAMS occurs, they certainly aren’t sincere in their concern….and if you take them up on it they will almost certainly fight you the whole way.

Mental health problems as we know are built into much of our society from day 1
How are they built in. You know the words but you do not know the why. Without knowing the why you are in the dark as to whether there is a solution or not. Built is says nothing. Ignorance causes things to perpetuate to the point of resignation to the inevitable feeling things are simply built in and can't be changed. What is also built in is that attitude of defeatism because it is preferred to the pain of self confrontation. What I am asking is for you to see that. The problem is in how you see the world. There is a difference between treating symptoms and curing the source. Solutions are a form of avoidance. There are no problems that are not the product of thought and imagination gone mad.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,675
6,194
126
It's almost like they were inherited…
Built into the fabric of culture, not our genes. Genetically gun grabbers are working against the instinct for self defense which IS genetic. It can be done in a society that is without fear, the same society we would have if we were all mentally healthy. All roads lead to Rome. At root we are mentally ill and nothing but mental health will fix us.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
37,964
18,279
146
Yup, no biggie here. All you have to do is face the consequences of passing a ban that millions will hear as you attempting to allow them to be murdered in their beds not the mention the boost in the economy by the opening of police jobs and the sales of coffins. 89iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

How are they built in. You know the words but you do not know the why. Without knowing the why you are in the dark as to whether there is a solution or not. Built is says nothing. Ignorance causes things to perpetuate to the point of resignation to the inevitable feeling things are simply built in and can't be changed. What is also built in is that attitude of defeatism because it is preferred to the pain of self confrontation. What I am asking is for you to see that. The problem is in how you see the world. There is a difference between treating symptoms and curing the source. Solutions are a form of avoidance. There are no problems that are not the product of thought and imagination gone mad.

Ok MB, enjoy your status quo and sleep tight knowing you’re an army of one
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
37,964
18,279
146
Tsk tsk. The answer to violence is to shoot the messenger? And it only takes an army of one. One finger in each ear.

I mean, you destroyed your own argument against removing all guns. I think if you were less emotionally attached to this subject, you’d better see how hollow your stance is.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,675
6,194
126
I mean, you destroyed your own argument against removing all guns. I think if you were less emotionally attached to this subject, you’d better see how hollow your stance is.
I lost track of where you thought I destroyed my own argument. My guess is that you think if I say something is hopeless it is hopeless. Actually, seeing that something is hopeless, say that anybody will face themselves means they will never face themselves. The ego will never face itself. Grace may have other ideas. The only hope we have is to see the hopelessness of any sacredness in the cows we pasture in our heads. To distance oneself from emotional attachment creates a space where the miraculous can enter in. One does not have to hope to be when one is.
 

Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
5,031
2,601
136
I have never said one over the other. I favor what I consider to be sane gun control. What you are doing is wishing there were laws that control what people can do so what's in their heads can't find the tools to manifest. I don't want to control anything. I don't have to control anything. I understand where any urge I might have to kill anybody comes from and I am not identified with such thinking. I don't have any hope that I can control what others are thinking. I believe that if others had understanding of how they operate they would have all the self control I could ever ask for and more. You are afraid that someone will impose some sort of mental prison on you which is just a projection of your actual condition.
Your post was pretty difficult to understand. It didn't make any sense.

My point is that it's way easier to regulate a trackable material good than it is trying to make sure all Americans have sane thoughts all the time and don't go on shooting rampages (ie trying to treat all the mental health problems int his country). Saying let's fix mental health as a way to solve the gun issue is like saying let's fix the temperature of the sun as a way to solve global warming. It's theoretically possible but way less practical than the alternative.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,675
6,194
126
Your post was pretty difficult to understand. It didn't make any sense.

My point is that it's way easier to regulate a trackable material good than it is trying to make sure all Americans have sane thoughts all the time and don't go on shooting rampages (ie trying to treat all the mental health problems int his country). Saying let's fix mental health as a way to solve the gun issue is like saying let's fix the temperature of the sun as a way to solve global warming. It's theoretically possible but way less practical than the alternative.
I appreciate you saying that I did not make any sense. I am used to that but generally just get insults for it. For my part I do understand your point that gun control as a matter of registering and tracking guns is something that can be and is to some degree is already being done. I am for rational gun control. The argument will come down as to what is rational say in my opinion vs someone else's. That is a political question. So why am I harping on mental health.

I do not see the world in the usual way that others do, in my opinion. When I was young I looked at the world and found it to be unbearably painful. Everywhere I looked there was war misery and suffering, massive levels of inhumanity everywhere. I had to find a way to deal with that, to make sense of it and to know that in the end it was all part of some plan that would right the injustice that everywhere the innocent suffered. So I set out to find a way to prove to myself and having done that prove to others that life is really OK. That it will all right itself in the end. This is what Christianity had told me would be the case.

So I began to search and I read every so called philosophy and religion I could find that purported to deal with the question and it all seemed to me to be nothing more that rationalizations based on assumed assumptions I could, myself not make. I was merciless. I demanded evidence as proof and nothing could satisfy me. I read the existentialists and found what they found, no exit. I was doomed to endless hopelessness and the knowledge that all our suffering won't ever be taken away. I let go and died to all hope.

Then I ran into Zen. Here were people who believed nothing just like me but who did not suffer. That was a tremendous shock. How could that possibly be. Why were they free and I was not? Why were they alive emotionally and I was dead to life? So I lay in bed one night trying to understand why I suffered? How could anybody life in a meaningless world and be happy. My thoughts ended when the my attention shifted to the sound of the wind hitting the house and I suddenly understood everything. It's hard to forget knowing that you knew everything there is to know. I don't mean I suddenly had access to vast stores of information. I mean that I answered the only question there is. Whatever question you may have is caused by a dream that any questions exist. There is no spoon, there are no questions. Everything is perfect as it is.

So what does this mean. It means that suffering is a creation of imagination and fear, identification with externals that we engender with belief, and to believe amounts to creating
a prison via attachment to it. Belief is the result of conditioning and the conditioning was profound because people will die for what they believe. The believer knows what the good is. He lives in a delusional state.

So when i say that what you are doing is wishing there were laws that control what people can do so what's in their heads can't find the tools to manifest, you are treating symptoms rather than causes. That is fine as far as it goes but it is insufficient in my opinion. When I say I don't want to control anything it is because it is control that created the mess we are in in the first place. We are controlled by our programming, our attachment to and worship of what we were told is sacred. When I say I don't want to control anything; I don't have to control anything, it is because I died to the things that were controlling me. I died to my sacred cows, to my religious faith, to my hope for respect within my family, to my worldly ambitions, to all I had worked to achieve for the sake of honesty. It was all worthless and empty.

And when I say I understand where any urge I might have to kill anybody comes from and I am not identified with such thinking, I am saying I know what it means to die to everything you believe, to feel what you feel when all of it is taken, the anger the rage, the desire for revenge, and finally the grief and acceptance there is no escape. When I say I I don't have any hope that I can control what others are thinking, I am saying I know how deeply I was controlled and what it cost to get free. When I say I believe that if others had understanding of how they operate they would have all the self control I could ever ask for and more I am saying that everything I feared when it happened set me free. So when I say you are afraid that someone will impose some sort of mental prison on you which is just a projection of your actual condition, I am saying that was what was operational in me.

When I first read Zen it threw me into a rage. How dare they enjoy a meaningless life. But all it was was envy. Fortunately for me my pain was so great I had to read more.

Hope this helps a bit.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
37,964
18,279
146
I lost track of where you thought I destroyed my own argument. My guess is that you think if I say something is hopeless it is hopeless. Actually, seeing that something is hopeless, say that anybody will face themselves means they will never face themselves. The ego will never face itself. Grace may have other ideas. The only hope we have is to see the hopelessness of any sacredness in the cows we pasture in our heads. To distance oneself from emotional attachment creates a space where the miraculous can enter in. One does not have to hope to be when one is.

Just re-read that last 20 posts, it was in there somewhere.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,675
6,194
126
Let me know if you find where you thought I destroyed my own argument because I don't think that I did. To move toward truth is to move toward paradox. Truth is the resolution of duality via a different understanding that is not universally had. It makes communication difficult because it can't be put into words.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
37,964
18,279
146
Let me know if you find where you thought I destroyed my own argument because I don't think that I did. To move toward truth is to move toward paradox. Truth is the resolution of duality via a different understanding that is not universally had. It makes communication difficult because it can't be put into words.

Are you too lazy to scroll up? I literally put it in the post.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,675
6,194
126
Are you too lazy to scroll up? I literally put it in the post.

I reviewed what I said quite carefully devoting considerable time to it. I was unable to find what isn't there. I have no idea what you found. Perhaps you could give me the number on my post. I am assuming you mean it is one of 20. Which one?
 
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