Mass shootings in Las Vegas

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WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
30,974
8,693
136
If they stopped reporting these there would be a lot fewer of them, these people do it for the 15 minutes of fame.
If everyone in the crowd had a gun, there would be a lot fewer dead, I am sure. Someone would have fired back. People without guns are too vulnerable.
An armed man is a citizen, and unarmed man is a subject.
There is a county in Georgia where gun ownership is mandated and the crime rate there is very low indeed.
KENNESAW, Ga - Several Kennesaw officials attribute a drop in crime in the city over the past two decades to a law that requires residents to have a gun in the house.
In 1982, the Kennesaw City Council unanimously passed a law requiring heads of households to own at least one firearm with ammunition.
The ordinance states the gun law is needed to "protect the safety, security and general welfare of the city and its inhabitants."
Then-councilman J.O. Stephenson said after the ordinance was passed, everyone "went crazy."
"People all over the country said there would be shootings in the street and violence in homes," he said. "Of course, that wasn't the case."
In fact, according to Stephenson, it caused the crime rate in the city to plunge.
Kennesaw Historical Society president Robert Jones said following the law's passage, the crime rate dropped 89 percent in the city, compared to the modest 10 percent drop statewide.
"It did drop after it was passed," he said. "After it initially dropped, it has stayed at the same low level for the past 16 years."
http://www.snopes.com/kennesaw-gun-law/
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
OK, my bad, they were mentioning something about the type of ammo used in the automatic, I'm sure we'll get the details as days go by.

When you are throwing lead that fast the type of ammo loses a lot of importance. Plus only certain types of ammo will cycle that fast through fully auto weapons.
Wiki says on average about 50 people a year die from lightning strikes so I think that gunshots are winning.

Mass shootings at concerts such as this horrible event... You know, the thing I was responding to?
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
30,974
8,693
136
Mass shootings at concerts such as this horrible event... You know, the thing I was responding to?

Well it's 58 at this concert and 49 at that night club last year so shootings are still winning just on those two.
 

jcwagers

Golden Member
Dec 25, 2000
1,150
14
81
If they stopped reporting these there would be a lot fewer of them, these people do it for the 15 minutes of fame.
If everyone in the crowd had a gun, there would be a lot fewer dead, I am sure. Someone would have fired back. People without guns are too vulnerable.
An armed man is a citizen, and unarmed man is a subject.

Under normal circumstances, I would agree. However, people in the crowd carrying pistols(which would be the most likely weapon), would be firing blindly and firing at 300-500 yrds. Odds of hitting anything at that range with a pistol would be extremely extremely low. Plus, the people had no idea where the shots were coming from. The man was up there and he was basically raining down rounds on an enormous group. Considering that the people didn't know where the shots were coming from, how could they respond and fire back? They were in a situation where they had no other course of action than to try to run and find cover.
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,547
651
126
If they stopped reporting these there would be a lot fewer of them, these people do it for the 15 minutes of fame.
If everyone in the crowd had a gun, there would be a lot fewer dead, I am sure. Someone would have fired back. People without guns are too vulnerable.
An armed man is a citizen, and unarmed man is a subject.
There is a county in Georgia where gun ownership is mandated and the crime rate there is very low indeed.
KENNESAW, Ga - Several Kennesaw officials attribute a drop in crime in the city over the past two decades to a law that requires residents to have a gun in the house.
In 1982, the Kennesaw City Council unanimously passed a law requiring heads of households to own at least one firearm with ammunition.
The ordinance states the gun law is needed to "protect the safety, security and general welfare of the city and its inhabitants."
Then-councilman J.O. Stephenson said after the ordinance was passed, everyone "went crazy."
"People all over the country said there would be shootings in the street and violence in homes," he said. "Of course, that wasn't the case."
In fact, according to Stephenson, it caused the crime rate in the city to plunge.
Kennesaw Historical Society president Robert Jones said following the law's passage, the crime rate dropped 89 percent in the city, compared to the modest 10 percent drop statewide.
"It did drop after it was passed," he said. "After it initially dropped, it has stayed at the same low level for the past 16 years."

Yawn to all of this.

Fired back? Do you even know what happened? You know the shooter was on the 32nd floor of a hotel 500 yards away, right? Pull out guns among 22,000 people in the dark and not know where the shooting is, you would have pulled your gun out and shot innocent people. Idiot.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
How does someone get an virtual arsenal of automatic weapons to the 30th floor of a major casino without anyone noticing?!?

Is the Mandalay Bay security really THAT bad? I thought that these places were completely covered with cameras.

Break them down into parts, put them in suitcases and have the bellboy deliver them up. The sheriff even said he had some crazy number of suitcases, like 15 or something, in his room that he took up over the course of his stay. Huge ass hotel/casino, tons of people, tons of different staff...
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,414
1,574
126
The sheriff even said he had some crazy number of suitcases, like 15 or something, in his room that he took up over the course of his stay. Huge ass hotel/casino, tons of people, tons of different staff...

"hey Bellboy, I'm planning for a bachelor party can you take all this stuff up to my room? Here's a c-note for your troubles."
 

brianmanahan

Lifer
Sep 2, 2006
24,300
5,730
136
everyone on my facebook is saying it is a mental health problem, not a gun problem.

i don't know about that. even if mental health started the thing, being able to load up on a bunch of automatic weapons and a ton of ammo finished it.
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,547
651
126
"hey Bellboy, I'm planning for a bachelor party can you take all this stuff up to my room? Here's a c-note for your troubles."

Yeah, he was supposed to be a high roller. Plus, there are lots of gun shows there, so having a bunch of legally owned guns is probably not something unseen before either.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
If they stopped reporting these there would be a lot fewer of them, these people do it for the 15 minutes of fame.
If everyone in the crowd had a gun, there would be a lot fewer dead, I am sure. Someone would have fired back. People without guns are too vulnerable.
An armed man is a citizen, and unarmed man is a subject.

In most mass shootings I'd agree with you but in this case armed citizens returning fire would have a 1,000%+ chance of killing some innocent person in their room than the actual gunman. He was 500 yards away on the 32nd floor, not a person in the world could make that shot with a handgun while taking plunging fire in a crowd. Hell I'd be beyond impressed if a person could make that shot at a range of sorts on a paper target with the long gun of their choice and no stress at all. If it takes them 10 shots to hit the paper that is 9 potential innocent people they just killed because they were trying to make an impossible shot under impossible conditions.

You can argue fight back with almost all mass shootings, this isn't one of them so please don't.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
Yawn to all of this.

Fired back? Do you even know what happened? You know the shooter was on the 32nd floor of a hotel 500 yards away, right? Pull out guns among 22,000 people in the dark and not know where the shooting is, you would have pulled your gun out and shot innocent people. Idiot.

Even if he knew exactly where the shooter was, that is an impossible shot with a handgun. Even if the guy was at ground level 500 yards is way beyond what anyone can accurately shoot a handgun under stress but a position that elevated? No chance in hell, not a single one. The only thing possible from that is killing more innocent people when your bullet hits 20 floors below where you aimed.
 

Crono

Lifer
Aug 8, 2001
23,720
1,501
136
Most of the non-terrorism mass shootings of the past two decades I'd say are a result of psychopharmaceuticals (antidepressants, antipsychotics), the internet, and the media - or rather, a perfect storm combination of the three. The side effects of legally prescribed drugs are often worse than the diseases, turning people into emotionless zombies, and in other ways exacerbating mental health problems rather than effectively treating them.

The internet acts in multiple ways, to feed into people's depression and psychoses, but also to act as a medium for expression for those who want to go out perceived "glory", or propagate a manifesto. Traditional media also does the same, overcovering every single mass shooting as if there aren't hundreds of thousands of people dying elsewhere. News should be covered, but they linger and obsess, potentially inspiring others to "go out" the same way.

You won't see blame put on prescription drugs because most of the media runs on prescription pill ad money (turn on CNN or Fox and watch a few minutes) and without strong evidence - and let's face it, it's just easier to blame "crazy" or guns - why take a chance legally or financially?

It's not a coincidence that the school shootings in particular started escalating in frequency right around the time drugs like Prozac came on the market (and many, many other drugs since then, leading to overmedication of the population as a whole) and were overprescribed to kids around the country. Sure, correlation does not imply causation, but I think the link is stronger there than it is for just the availability of "military-style assault rifles", or some inexplicable increase in crazy people - we've always had crazy, what changed? - which are the typical reasons sited by those from the left-right paradigm.

You can trade a chicken for an AK-74 in many parts of the world, yet they don't see the random mass killings that we do here. Yes, you see terrorist attacks, ethnic cleansings, criminal conflict, etc which have always occurred in some form, but not the random person "snapping" and buying a gun to go on a killing spree - or at least not at the same level outside of the Western world. No one thinks to say maybe we've got some other problem going on here?

I'm not a conspiracy theorist. In fact, I don't think it's a conspiracy at all so much as people just turning a blind eye, the same way we've tried to do with the opioid epidemic, or in decades past with the tobacco-cancer link. Or how mental health used to be viewed in the early and mid 20th century (lobotomies, electroshock therapy) before reforms took place, and books and movies like One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, and Girl, Interrupted enlightened the broader public. No one wants to talk about how depressed and consequently medicated we are as a society. It's (ironically) depressing and bad for business.

P.S. I do not give a rat's ass about gun control one way or another for the sake of this argument. You want to limit guns or even ban all guns? Fine. If an authoritarian regime comes to power and revolution is necessary, we can always steal their weapons or make our own, worst case scenario. You want unrestricted sale of guns or just keep the status quo? Fine. I'm not cowering in fear because guns are everywhere, though personally I don't feel compelled to buy a gun. Whatever. I just hate that the root problem gets ignored.

P.P.S. I do have a bow and a sword, though. You come for mah weapons and you will lose your head (there can be only one) or take an arrow to the knee.
 
Last edited:

BUTCH1

Lifer
Jul 15, 2000
20,433
1,769
126
If they stopped reporting these there would be a lot fewer of them, these people do it for the 15 minutes of fame.
If everyone in the crowd had a gun, there would be a lot fewer dead, I am sure. Someone would have fired back. People without guns are too vulnerable.
An armed man is a citizen, and unarmed man is a subject.
There is a county in Georgia where gun ownership is mandated and the crime rate there is very low indeed.
KENNESAW, Ga - Several Kennesaw officials attribute a drop in crime in the city over the past two decades to a law that requires residents to have a gun in the house.
In 1982, the Kennesaw City Council unanimously passed a law requiring heads of households to own at least one firearm with ammunition.
The ordinance states the gun law is needed to "protect the safety, security and general welfare of the city and its inhabitants."
Then-councilman J.O. Stephenson said after the ordinance was passed, everyone "went crazy."
"People all over the country said there would be shootings in the street and violence in homes," he said. "Of course, that wasn't the case."
In fact, according to Stephenson, it caused the crime rate in the city to plunge.
Kennesaw Historical Society president Robert Jones said following the law's passage, the crime rate dropped 89 percent in the city, compared to the modest 10 percent drop statewide.
"It did drop after it was passed," he said. "After it initially dropped, it has stayed at the same low level for the past 16 years."
This is the problem with that thought process, there would be no easy way for the concert-goers to determine what room it was coming from so the entire hotel would have been raked with small-arms fire and many people staying in those rooms would have been hit and possibly killed. Defending your domicile is one thing, trying to take out a shooter 14 stories above you is quite another.
 

madoka

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2004
4,344
712
121
Even if he knew exactly where the shooter was, that is an impossible shot with a handgun. Even if the guy was at ground level 500 yards is way beyond what anyone can accurately shoot a handgun under stress but a position that elevated? No chance in hell, not a single one. The only thing possible from that is killing more innocent people when your bullet hits 20 floors below where you aimed.

The effective range of a CCW handgun is only around 100 yards, so not only would you not hit the shooter, you wouldn't hit the hotel.
 

mxnerd

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2007
6,799
1,101
126
Wow, this thread is just full of craps posted by John Connor, who said he didn't jump to conclusions, how ironic.
 

disappoint

Lifer
Dec 7, 2009
10,137
382
126
everyone on my facebook is saying it is a mental health problem, not a gun problem.

i don't know about that. even if mental health started the thing, being able to load up on a bunch of automatic weapons and a ton of ammo finished it.

A better way to put it might be: Okay we can agree that there are a bunch of people running around with serious mental health issues. You think it might be a good idea to arm them? Or can we agree disarming them might be a good idea?
 

brianmanahan

Lifer
Sep 2, 2006
24,300
5,730
136
A better way to put it might be: Okay we can agree that there are a bunch of people running around with serious mental health issues. You think it might be a good idea to arm them? Or can we agree disarming them might be a good idea?

i think disarming is worth considering, at least with the auto weapons

i suggested this on facebook though and got slammed as being unamerican
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
The effective range of a CCW handgun is only around 100 yards, so not only would you not hit the shooter, you wouldn't hit the hotel.

Oh I know, I just didn't want some asshole posting a video of some crazy professional 500 yard shot with a handgun under great conditions. It could have been 20 yards and 34 floors up and you are still many thousands of times more likely to hit an innocent person in the wrong room than the shooter. Even with a high powered rifle at any sort of range to set up it would be like a jump shot across the court from under the opposite goal.
 

disappoint

Lifer
Dec 7, 2009
10,137
382
126
i think disarming is worth considering, at least with the auto weapons

i suggested this on facebook though and got slammed as being unamerican

If I'm not mistaken automatic weapons are already outlawed aren't they? The weapons used in this case were purchased legally but modified to auto fire. This goes to show that if someone is really determined to kill a lot of people they will find a way, even with laws in place to slow them down.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
i think disarming is worth considering, at least with the auto weapons

i suggested this on facebook though and got slammed as being unamerican

From everything that I have heard this crazy bastard didn't legally purchase any full auto weapons. He may have illegally purchased or more likely converted weapons to full auto but the ATF would have an extensive record of him owning even a single full auto gun.
 

Alpha One Seven

Golden Member
Sep 11, 2017
1,098
124
66
This is the problem with that thought process, there would be no easy way for the concert-goers to determine what room it was coming from so the entire hotel would have been raked with small-arms fire and many people staying in those rooms would have been hit and possibly killed. Defending your domicile is one thing, trying to take out a shooter 14 stories above you is quite another.
I doubt the entire hotel would have been raked with small arms fire, cute thought though. Guns also require training to use them.
 

Alpha One Seven

Golden Member
Sep 11, 2017
1,098
124
66
Yawn to all of this.

Fired back? Do you even know what happened? You know the shooter was on the 32nd floor of a hotel 500 yards away, right? Pull out guns among 22,000 people in the dark and not know where the shooting is, you would have pulled your gun out and shot innocent people. Idiot.
You assume I would have, I know better.
 
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