except for AA you dont lower the settings, you simply lower the resolution. many settings impact the cpu so if you lower them then you defeat the point.
except for AA you dont lower the settings, you simply lower the resolution. many settings impact the cpu so if you lower them then you defeat the point.
OP, he's correct. My post was a bit simplistic. AA and resolution are the only unquestionably 100% GPU-bound settings in the vast majority of cases. Normally those would be the only two you'd lower to test for a slight bottleneck, but a severe bottleneck is going to show up clearly even at low settings in most games.
I just figured that clicking a low preset and choosing a lower res would be the most user-friendly way to test for a severe CPU bottleneck. Sorry if I caused extra confusion.
Also BigChickenJim you quote, "For the record, most console games these days run at the equivalent of medium-low settings."
Where would I go to find this type of information; I am very much interested in comparisons.
I don't believe you caused extra confusion, but I will say I am confused;
could you please clarify.
Sorry, just saw this one. I'm not sure where you could go to find detailed technical comparisons between current-gen consoles and high-end gaming PCs since the hardware is so fundamentally different; my assertion is based entirely on my experience playing many games on both (I review games on the side, and that usually necessitates comparisons).
As for your confusion over bottlenecks, let's start from the beginning.
-What is a bottleneck?
A bottleneck in the computer world is situation in which one or more of your components is prevented from reaching its potential due to another component being unable to keep up. Bottlenecks rarely show up noticeably outside of gaming because gaming is one of the only mainstream computer uses that involves heavy reliance on both graphical horsepower and processing efficiency.
Example: Bottlenecks are best visualized using their namesake, a full bottle. There is a ton of liquid (performance potential) inside, but it can only flow out of the bottle at a certain rate thanks to the narrow neck (the titular "bottleneck"). That's great if you're pouring a beer, but you want your computer to behave more like a bucket. You want it to pour all of its performance potential freely when you ask it to.
-What is a CPU bottleneck specifically?
A CPU bottleneck is the situation caused by having a processor that is too slow to handle computations in a demanding environment despite having plenty of graphical horsepower behind it. In this case that demanding environment is gaming. Your graphics card could be more than capable of chugging out all the visual splendor of modern games, but if your CPU can't handle the necessary processes driving the game itself you'll start to experience frame drops and low performance (frame rates in the case of gaming). Think of it like this: you want both your processor and your graphics card to be able to produce roughly the same frame rates.
Example: Your graphics card can produce an average frame rate of 60 frames per second in a given game at high settings, but your CPU can only produce 40 frames per second in the same game at the same settings. Therefore, your frame rate will never surpass 40 frames per second on high (or really at all, depending on whether or not there are options to turn down the CPU-bound settings) in that game no matter how powerful your card is. That means that you are not able to use your card to its full potential due your CPU and thus have a "CPU bottleneck."
-How do you test for a CPU bottleneck?
As I said before, severe bottlenecks will manifest themselves even with all settings at low. However, and as Toyota pointed out, when testing for a specific problem you want to control as many variables as possible. That means that ideally you'll only want to adjust GPU-bound settings. Since you are testing for a CPU weakness, adjusting CPU-bound or even partially CPU-bound settings could throw off the test results. The idea here is that lowering graphically bound settings like anti-aliasing and resolution should raise your framerates and reduce frame drops in a balanced system. If your frame rates do not rise or stabilize under extremely light graphical settings then you know that your issue is due to something other than your GPU. In gaming, that's nearly always the CPU.
Example: I am experiencing framerates of 45 in a given game at high resolution and AA settings (and others, but we won't get into that), but feel that I should be getting better performance. I turn off AA and drastically reduce resolution knowing that these changes should produce a large frame rate increase. However, even at the new settings I experience the same frame rate of 45 frames per second. This tells me that something other than my graphics card is holding back my performance. That will more often than not be the CPU.
-How do I fix a CPU bottleneck?
You have two choices here: overclock (force it to run at higher frequencies than it was designed for) the living hell out of your existing processor or buy a new, faster CPU. The first option is great if you are on a budget, but it comes with a risk of damaging your components if you don't know what you're doing. The second option is safer, but obviously involves spending money and performing an upgrade. Which of those you choose is entirely up to you.
A computer--and especially a gaming computer--should be a finely balanced machine. No single component should hold back your other hardware; everything should be in balance with everything else. Obviously that doesn't always happen in the real world due to budget restrictions and yada yada, but you should strive to get as close to that ideal as possible.
I know that was a VERY long post, but it seemed as if you were a little confused. My explanations are a bit simpler than real life situations, but hopefully this helps clear stuff up and light the way for you a little bit.
Thank you very much that was highly informative, and I believe I understand completely now. I had more confusion understanding why I would lower certain setting before others, but this has cleared up that and helped me understand it in a whole new light.
Thank you very much for you help, I really appreciate it.
Any recommendations on what I should upgrade too, after I accumulate some cash?
I was thinking something along the lines of an I3 or I5; I believe I can't upgrade to an I7 due to compatibility issues, but that's just from what I recall.
Anything compatible with an i3 is also compatible with an i5 is also compatible with an i7
An i5 3750k is basically the gold standard for gaming right now. That's what I'd buy, although some i3s are pretty competitive too (for now).
Okay thank you.
I don't have the cash at this time to grab a I5, but I was looking at the I3's as a temporary upgrade; which model would you buy, given the choice and would you please elaborate on why?
Also I noticed that I should get a better fan capable of keeping up with the processor; what fan would you recommend as a cheap but effective fix?
Honestly I'd wait and save. A good i5 is only around $200 and i3s often run half or more of that. An i3 is a dual core and to be honest anything less than a quad is quickly becoming obsolete. I have always used AMD processors because they are much cheaper and the Intel performance differences are not worth the price to me, especially since all of AMD's FX chips are unlocked and can be easily OC'd. Of course, switching to an FX chip would involve buying an AM3+ mobo and by then you're only $20-30 away from the i5, so that's not the best choice for you.
If you need a good, cheap CPU cooler I'd recommend the Cooler Master Hyper 212 Plus or 212 Evo. They're about 30 bones and work wonders.
Remind me which motherboard you have again? I'll do some research for you.
Edit: Software can indeed be hazardous to your machine's health, but a fresh format and install will always fix that. The only software program I've ever heard of actually damaging physical hardware was FurMark. Even then it was only low-end GPUs being fried.
Don't be afraid of overclocking. It's pretty difficult to screw up badly enough to actually break something if you're willing to learn the basics before starting. However, I understand you're on a tight budget and don't want to take any unnecessary risks. I can respect that.
Honestly I'd wait and save. A good i5 is only around $200 and i3s often run half or more of that. An i3 is a dual core and to be honest anything less than a quad is quickly becoming obsolete. I have always used AMD processors because they are much cheaper and the Intel performance differences are not worth the price to me, especially since all of AMD's FX chips are unlocked and can be easily OC'd. Of course, switching to an FX chip would involve buying an AM3+ mobo and by then you're only $20-30 away from the i5, so that's not the best choice for you.
If you need a good, cheap CPU cooler I'd recommend the Cooler Master Hyper 212 Plus or 212 Evo. They're about 30 bones and work wonders.
Remind me which motherboard you have again? I'll do some research for you.
Edit: Software can indeed be hazardous to your machine's health, but a fresh format and install will always fix that. The only software program I've ever heard of actually damaging physical hardware was FurMark. Even then it was only low-end GPUs being fried.
Don't be afraid of overclocking. It's pretty difficult to screw up badly enough to actually break something if you're willing to learn the basics before starting. However, I understand you're on a tight budget and don't want to take any unnecessary risks. I can respect that.
If you are going to keep that i5 as long as you've likely had the x2, I would wait, save up for it, and buy it.
It will age much better than an i3. It's 2x the CPU.
Ah, I forgot you have a 32 bit OS, HWiNFO32 is what you want: http://www.hwinfo.com/download32.html
Thank you for that information.
Seems like the better choice would be to go with something a bit more powerful; currently, I am thinking of purchasing a Phenom II x4 955.
What do you think about this processor?
The Phenom II x4 is indeed the best CPU your motherboard can take, but it's very old and will still cause some pretty nasty bottlenecks. I have a buddy of mine dealing with bottlenecks as we speak on an Phenom II x4. Frankly, I don't think it's worth your money and it likely won't fix your problems.
Now that I've seen your rig details, I think you're a great candidate for an AMD FX-6300 Vishera. It's only $130 (sometimes cheaper on sale), has six cores, is worlds better than a Phenom II (especially with a mild OC), and should clean up your issues in the vast majority of games. Do you have a Microcenter nearby? They often have screaming mobo bundle deals. That's how I wound up with the FX- 6300 in my sig ($170 for the CPU and mobo). If not, a decent AM3+ mobo will cost $80-100, putting the total upgrade cost at below the price of an i5 3750k by itself. That, my friend, is the ticket.
I know you want to upgrade right now and that your budget is tight, but trust me when I say that it's better to wait and pinch pennies until you can buy something worthwhile. It'll work out cheaper and be less frustrating in the long run.
Nothing you've described sounds like overheating or throttling, I was just covering all the bases. HWiNFO64 is a good program to monitor with, it will record temps for everything that has a sensor. Your GPU is probably rated for a max temp somewhere between 90 and 100 degrees Celsius. It should be staying under 85 though. Throttling means that your card is reducing its clock speed it order to stay within the safe operating temp and power draw range. You said that your clock and memory speeds weren't changing so your card isn't throttling. I never suspected that heat was a problem, but it's just something to check.
The fact that you experience the same low FPS on any graphics setting indicates a CPU bottleneck. Normally reducing the load on the GPU will increase your frame rate, but if your CPU is unable to cope with the processing in a timely matter, it won't matter. HWinfo can also log usage for CPU and GPU, you should play some games that lag and then see which components are being stressed the most. Remove and then upgrade your drivers first. A lot of newer games will benefit from that.
oh yeah, your "memory read" speed seems pretty slow at 3480 mb/s, my $50 g630 runs it @ 8000mb/s, that may explain some issues.
Thank you very much again for all the help.
I am unsure and will have to do some research, as far as the MicroCenter goes.
My question now is: Should I just wait long enough to get an I5 or would that be more trouble than it is worth; the thing is, I don't want to have to replace everything and fresh install in the process.
At this point the 6300 compares to the I5, I just wonder how much in comparison to the 955; I have read a forum, in which the user was happier to have the 6300 than the 955, so this does gear me towards the 6300.
Also, what do I have to replace?
Will I be forced to upgrade the fan?
Also, how difficult is it to replace a motherboard and any tips?
Thank you very much again for all the help.
I am unsure and will have to do some research, as far as the MicroCenter goes.
My question now is: Should I just wait long enough to get an I5 or would that be more trouble than it is worth; the thing is, I don't want to have to replace everything and fresh install in the process.
At this point the 6300 compares to the I5, I just wonder how much in comparison to the 955; I have read a forum, in which the user was happier to have the 6300 than the 955, so this does gear me towards the 6300.
Also, what do I have to replace?
Will I be forced to upgrade the fan?
Also, how difficult is it to replace a motherboard and any tips?
You don't need to replace everything, just the processor and the motherboard. Upgrading to the FX-6300 (be sure to get the newest Vishera chip) and an AM3+ mobo will run you $50-100 cheaper than an i5 3750k and an Intel socket board. I wouldn't even consider the 955. The i5 is definitely a better processor right now--the new consoles' AMD-based design may change that in the future--but the 6300 is more than capable of running modern games at ultra settings as long as you have sufficient graphical power behind it. You'll never completely eliminate frame drops, but they'll be so small that you likely won't notice them.
Regardless of which processor you choose you should spring for a cheap aftermarket cooler like the Hyper 212 Plus. It's only $25-30 and is well worth it if you are going to be gaming and/or overclocking with the processor.
I won't lie, replacing a mobo is a pain in the backside. It isn't hard, but it can be time consuming and especially so if you don't have much experience doing it. That said, if you want to be a PC gamer without spending $3-4k on pre-built rigs you're going to need to learn this stuff. There's no better time than the present. Besides, the payoff will be worth it.
And yes, I believe that it will end your gaming hiccups.