Awesome, I apologize for not responding quicker.
Okay thank you very much, I will definitely appreciate that info.
I will be responding to John Dime next. I will combine both of his posts and reply accordingly; thank you for your patience John Dime.
Awesome. You're good to go with that HDD. That should save you around $70. I'll type up the information about your processor upgrade (crash course in socket types and TDP) and try to answer your other questions tomorrow. Bed time for now. Long day...
Regarding the GPU usage percentage I've been going on about - this pertains primarily to the core and memory clocks. The HD 5770 has its default top clocks at 850 and 1200 MHz, respectively. As you may have noticed, it idles at 157 and 300 MHz, respectively. Now, once the GPU is stressed past a certain point, much like how it happens with CPU's and their C states, the GPU will resort to another clock state in order to provide sufficient rendering power to process whatever's thrown its way, up until it reaches the highest clock state, which by default is the former (850 and 1200 MHz). I'm omitting the details on clock states to try and keep it succinct, but you can consult them here, on the BIOS Internals table.
The particular column I've been referring to, on the GPU-Z log, should read GPU Load [%] and present values within the interval 0-100. It's the percentage of load on the GPU clocks, simply put. To gain some headroom, you push those 850/1200 numbers a little further, the so called over-clocking, which will, if the GPU is constantly loaded at or above 90% of its capacity (while gaming, for instance), give you some more rendering power and provide slightly smoother gaming, hopefully. Given that you keep asking about averages: not to confuse you further, but the load percentage on the log, as well as every other value, is indeed an average, given that the log will have information added every 1 second and the values change more often than that. Otherwise, for most intents and purposes, you can consider it an instantaneous reading. I hope I've been clear, this time.
The second relevant clarification I would like to make is regarding motherboard CPU compatibility. From what I gather, the top CPU you want to use with that motherboard is indeed the Phenom II X4 840 (check this). Your current CPU has a TDP of 65 W -> X4 840 = 95 W -> X4 955 = 125 W. We're talking about nearly doubling the TDP of the processor if you opt for the X4 955, which isn't a good idea at all. Furthermore, I've read 2 or 3 topics on the matter, on the Dell forums, where people wanted to upgrade their CPU with the same motherboard, and the best it could handle was indeed the X4 840.
Frankly, if you acquire the X4 840 + 2 GB more of RAM and install the 64 bit version of Windows 7, you should be fine running most pre-2013 games on medium settings, at 1080p (rough estimate), provided that you don't come across any thermal issue, which running that CPU at stock voltages shouldn't incite. Again, this incremental upgrade isn't ideal, because it's a matter of time until your virtual endeavours require more power, but for now, given that you are willing to spend a little over $100 on a temporary solution, that should relieve your system.
A side note: the main differences between [P]ATA and SATA are a slight speed increase from the latter over the former and different connectors. You can read more on the Web, but that pretty much covers the relevant points.
JD
Considering I only see 784 free, I am assuming this is a huge issue, especially when trying to run highly demanding games.
Are you saying that I can keep my mobo?
Im a bit confused on this: I understand (From wiki) The thermal design power (TDP), sometimes called thermal design point, refers to the maximum amount of power the cooling system in a computer is required to dissipate.
Can my PSU affect this?
Also doesn't this mean I would only require a better CPU fan for that specific issue?
I tried over ten different methods to remove drivers for CCC and all AMD drivers, but it only screws things up forcing me to go back to SYSTEM RESTORE points; RadeonPro is awesome for the most part.
I think its about time I get at the very least a memory upgrade and upgrade to 64bit ( running 32bit Windows 7 on VMware if I have any issues; I have still read about issues even with it's 32bit emulator); any ideas on memory upgrades for this mobo?
I could see going to Windows XP to free up some RAM, but performance, in my experience, has been lower on Windows XP opposed to Windows 7; I did these comparisons almost back to back.
So is my HDD still a good choice to blend into the new upgrade, considering it is an ATA?
As mentioned, 32 bit applications, which most games are, will use up to 2 GB of RAM by default, in most cases. Surely, anything below that level may affect performance - I don't know what else you were running there, but that amount of free RAM, once filled, will cause massive FPS drops... which just so happens to be the title of your thread! If you know about RAM, you'll know it's a storage point for data, significantly faster to read from than the hard drive. Resorting to virtual memory is resorting to the HD and once you're out of physical memory and the system is left to access virtual memory, the speed of RAM vs. HD gives notice. Given that we've found this egregious culprit, I'm fairly certain that updating to the 64 bit version of Windows and adding at least 2 GB more of RAM, will relieve your system.
Regarding the motherboard question, it comes down to what you want. You've now made clear that you intend to try this year's games and even though a newer CPU (say, i5-2500K and above) will benefit game-play in comparison to a stock X4 955, the most relevant part of hardware and subsequently the one that gets stressed the most, is undoubtedly the GPU. Furthermore, well-founded conclusions have been frequently drawn, pointing how many games do not take advantage of a 2500K over-clocked past a certain point, at 1080p. Therefore, if you wish to keep that motherboard, and according to the thread you found, it will support the X4 955, your computer may be able to handle recent titles at 720p, without the extra glitter, at medium-low settings (thinking along the lines of Crysis 3 and Far Cry 3) - weighing in the remainder of your system, assuming 2 GB more with a 64 bit OS and as noted, the X4 955. So if you want access to this right now, go for it. If you already have the 64 bit OS, then it likely won't be that much over $100 for you to upgrade that system without setting reason aside, meaning, there will be no point in investing further beyond that on a system based on DDR2, ATA and an outdated CPU compatibility list. However, do keep in mind that we don't have any further input on that thread. And this pertains to my following point...
My concern with the X4 955 being used on that motherboard relates to its high TDP. The TDP, as you properly understood from examining the articles, is "the maximum amount of power the cooling system in a computer is required to dissipate.", but what you should be considering here is the previous step. The power is there to be dissipated, because it was induced. The problem with inducing higher and higher amounts of power to a system that has not been designed to cope (assuming your motherboard hasn't, and that's why I would like further commentary on how the system reacted overtime in that person's case), can lead to rapid degradation and deem the system useless. A decent cooler could be able to address this issue as you suggest with the follow-up question, but I don't know whether there is sufficient airflow inside the case in the first place, nor how robust of an heat sink that motherboard and tower can support, where height, width and weight are concerned. As for your PSU, 500 W are plenty, if it is indeed capable of providing that wattage. I'm assuming you added that part afterwards as happened with the GPU, so you should be fine there.
Even if we are to conclude that the X4 955 won't constitute a thermal problem, bearing in mind all of the points above, I would opt for the cheapest of the two (955 vs. 840). The 955 has the L3 cache which does sit well with some games, but for the level you're aiming at, the 840 will do just fine. You can watch this (6 videos total), where incidentally someone using a system similar to yours - if you get the X4 840 - gets acceptable FPS playing such games as Metro 2033 (check video 5). They don't make them much more demanding than that.
As a side note, the X4 820 has 4 MB of L3 cache, but the clock is 400 MHz inferior and given that you can't over-clock, it may not seem the brightest of options, but we're talking about doubling your current amount of cores and adding 4 MB of L3 cache per each - that would certainly improve your gaming experience and suffice until the upcoming upgrade.
If you're satisfied with RadeonPro, there's no need to go further, but what I'm wondering about is why you're having issues getting rid of the drivers and having issues that require you to restore the system in the first place. Hopefully though, once you get the 64 bit version up and running, assuming you'll do a fresh install, that should all go away.
As I've mentioned in the beginning of the post, the memory situation does seem overdue. That should address some of your FPS drops, from what I can tell. As far as what type of RAM you should be looking for, any low-profile 2 GB PC2-6400 DDR2 module should do. No need to go fancy here, but I don't feel comfortable making a suggestion any more specific than this, due to pricing. If BigChickenJim is still around, I think he can be of more service here than I can.
A small point: regarding the compatibility issues with the 64 bit version, what you can do if you encounter these at all is to consider running Windows XP on the VM instead of Windows 7, since you appear to have it available.
At most, you'll need an IDE to SATA cable, if the motherboard doesn't support the current connector, otherwise, you should be set with it - it spins at 7.200 RPM and has 16 MB of cache. Sufficient.
JD
Are you speaking of newer titles? If this is the case I am in the negatives for physical memory.
So would you say this would play at 60fps or at least a steady 45fps; also would you say these settings would be better than my XBOX360 Elite?(Graphics detail and speed)
What other factors should I consider other than cooling; is this the biggest issue?
The case itself would probably have no issues staying cool, at least in my opinion, but I do see your concern. As far as the heat sink goes, what are some good smaller sized heat sinks, if you know any and don't mind sharing.
My PSU is an CoolMax 500w, so it's definitely capable; I assume you didn't want to go through 70+ posts to find that out haha.
As far as going with the 840, I wasn't pleased with the results enough to purchase this processor; I do appreciate the suggestion though.
Most of those games seemed a bit outdated; most of the games that run steady, a.k.a. Skyrim etc., seem to run better than these video captures and although I will note the video is in 480p, it still seems to be less detail than what I normally push.
I would post a Skyrim photo, but I doubt it would matter considering all the variables involved.
I will note that Skyrim could have been created for both high and low demanding systems and RAM could also play a big part here.
Well the only issue I have with running Windows XP is the noticeable difference in performance. Sure, I could tweak it out, but I doubt that would help much; thank you for this suggestion though. One day I want to have a dual-boot set up, a dedicated external HDD OS, and all Windows and other OSes set up virtually on one system; due to many issues, including the inability to install a Windows XP after Windows 7, I have settled with Windows 7. Hopefully soon I can get a career in IT and stay with the times haha. Lack of space sucks, to put it bluntly.
I believe once I upgrade to 64bit that I will see a significant difference even without the extra memory if I use ReadyBoost. Also I have found something called AMD Radeon RAM Disk.
http://www.radeonmemory.com/software_4.0.php
I think it will help, but I haven't given it much examination.
I'm still here, my friend. JD is doing a spectacular job and I have a child due any day now, so I haven't felt the need to chime in for a little bit.
I'd just like to reiterate that based on what I now know about your rig I believe you'll have some pretty wicked cooling issues if you opt to go with a temporary CPU upgrade. As JD said, even a 95 watt TDP chip is likely to raise your mobo and case temps to unsafe levels, so a 125 watt TDP chip like the 955 is virtually guaranteed to. I foolishly mentioned the 955 before I had all of your system details; now that I've seen them I feel an obligation to warn you about the potentially disastrous issues that could arise from placing a high-TDP chip in a poorly cooled (comparatively speaking) mid-tower OEM system, especially one with a micro-atx board that is probably burdened by poor power phasing and sinkless VRMs. In basic terms: heat is going to be a big issue in your current system no matter which upgrade you choose, so much so that I question the wisdom of any upgrade at all.
I'm still not convinced an OS/RAM upgrade is going to fix your problems, but JD seems like a very knowledgeable gentleman so I'll reserve judgement until you've done it. My guess is that you'll see a marginal performance increase, but you're still going to bottlenecked severely by your CPU and, as I said above, any significant CPU upgrade is likely to do more harm than good. That said, new RAM and a 64 bit OS can't hurt and at least the OS can be transplanted into a new system later. I'm happy to help you find some decent LP DDR2 modules if you need me to.
Oh, and RAM disks are very, very tricky to set up and use efficiently for gaming. They are FAST to be sure, but you need some substantial capacity overhead to even consider using them and I question their usefulness for gaming given that they can usually only accommodate a small number of game files and would require hours or days of tweaking for each game in order to work optimally. Besides, your 7200 RPM HDD shouldn't be causing any issues. It and the PSU are arguably the only two components in your system that don't need to be upgraded. Save the RAM disk idea for a day when you have at least 16 GB of DDR3 to play with and just focus on basic physical memory upgrades for now.
32 bit applications in general, which most games are, therefore most games will use up to 2 GB of RAM on a 32 bit OS, unless the 3 GB switch is on, as I briefly addressed on post #69. On a 64 bit OS however, 32 bit applications can use up to 4 GB of RAM.
It depends on the game, but if we consider some of the most demanding titles such as Crysis 3, Far Cry 3 and both Metro titles, then I would very roughly estimate you to be able to draw an average of 35-40 FPS at 720p, with Medium settings, AA turned off, paired with a X4 955. Overall, if you're going to stay at that resolution, everything should be playable if you're prepared to tweak the settings somewhat, even though I would estimate less demanding titles to run fairly smoothly, 40-50 FPS, with the same set up, at High settings. From what I gather, and I'm not too aware of consoles nowadays so you'll probably know more about the subject than myself, most games run at 30 FPS and at a resolution of up to 1080p. If this is so, you may not be able to top the detail on those recent games just yet with your set up, already including the new processor and 64 bit OS/memory upgrade, but you won't be too far off. Essentially, there's only so much the HD 5770 will do too. If we consider the HD 5850, which came out 4 years ago and is around 35-40% faster than the HD 5770, it's already a GPU that will only saturate earlier 4-core processors moderately over-clocked. For you to leave the consoles behind and let us discard the upcoming generation, you probably need a GPU along the lines of a HD 7850. Again, not the most knowledgeable fellow when it comes to consoles, but from the little I've read, even though I may be a little off, up or down, the HD 7850 is vastly superior to the HD 5770 and quite cheap nowadays. Something to consider when you go for the thorough overhaul.
If you're talking about the processor alone, then proper cooling is all you'll have to worry about. There's plenty of software available to monitor CPU temperatures, which I advise you to install once the new processor is on-board. There won't be any over-clocking involved, which means the stock cooler should be able to handle the default voltages, provided that the air doesn't get too warm inside the case. I don't know what temperatures you have there, but where I'm at, I wouldn't take my chances unless I knew the case was able to exhaust warm air at a decent enough rate not to cause any unwanted over-heating. If you're getting the CPU and the stock cooler, analyse the temperatures afterwards. We still don't know whether you'll have an issue there as up until now we've only been speculating to be on the safe side, but if it comes to that, we can go through a selection of adequate candidates to cool the CPU in alternative to the stock heat sink. Let us know if you'll acquire the CPU with the stock cooler or not.
Did I miss that? Memory no longer in its prime hehe thanks for the rectification.
I'm still curious to know of the impact the OS and RAM upgrades will have on your gaming experience. With that in mind, there's no denying a 4-core CPU will vastly surpass your current X2 240 and while I can't egregiously consider the X4 955 the best option, all things considered, that L3 cache, which for some reason AMD included on the X4 820 but not on the X4 840, can be seen making a difference in games - scroll down on this page to check L3 cache versus no L3 cache in games. Slightly archaic resolutions, but it gives you an idea.
Sounds good. Don't forget the old folks here when you become Gates' beer buddy!
ReadyBoost is fine, but it's no match for RAM, speed wise. You should be fine with another 2 GB, until you get to DDR3, or DDR4. As for AMD Radeon RAM Disk the way it works is, you resort to RAM memory as you would to a HDD or SSD, meaning that you can use it to speed up reading/writing time of applications, but because RAM gets reset when the power goes off, you have to rebuild the data every time you boot into the OS. I'm afraid it will have no use for you, not in the way you implied it could, as it's something to take advantage of RAM as ultra-fast storage, rather than increasing RAM availability in any way. I hope that cleared it.
Keep us posted with the upgrade progress, whenever possible.
JD
Congratulations, I have four children and I'm glad you get to experience this blessing.
As far as the upgrade goes the 840 had a place on the spec list, while the 955 did not; do you think if I had a awesome cooling unit and heat sink that I would be able to manage with either?
" poor power phasing and sinkless VRMs"
If you don't mind and have the time can you elaborate on this?
I would totally appreciate the RAM suggestions; thank you very much.
Thank you for the RAM disk information; I didn't realize that I would need so much RAM to use it. I really don't want to have to do more tweaking, considering I've done so much already.
You and John Dime have been the most help so far; thank you for all your time, effort, and patience.
I have a question: Wouldnt my 1gb of video memory (included in the 5770) help in reduction of physical RAM?
I am bit confused, can you elaborate?
Concerning the 7850: Is my mobo able to handle this and if so I know I will most likely need a PSU. Any ideas?
I will definitely let you know as far as the RAM and OS goes; I found these: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...2Ck%3Addr2+ram
I personally like the Crucial 4gb Kit, but I just see price not specs. (I know only the general concept of RAM.)
As far as the L3 cache is concerned: Id rather not take the chance of getting an inferior CPU, with the knowledge that it helps specific games, at least from what I understand. I would appreciate a smoother experience, but if the 820 opposed to the 840, is in fact inferior (by how much I am unsure, sorry havent had a chance to do the comparisons.) I do not think I would want to go with that CPU.
So now I am faced with this: Phenom 955 which in fact could have some issues or a 840/820 +L3 cache.
I would like to do some research into the comparisons between the 840 and 820 and also some comparisons concerning the L3 cache; Thank you for sharing this information.
Dont worry friends, I log everything including forums; when this closes if it isnt instantly deleted, I shall take the time to copy all this information to a Word Document and save it. This should hopefully secure a place for all of you at the Steak and Caviar parties haha.
First off this seems incredibly repetitive and tedious haha.
Second, what do you mean I can use my HDD to speed up my RAM; any information you could share?
[FONT="]I read a bit of the below link and assuming my PC is a cheaper model (Its used), I am assuming more so that my mobo has less power phases than most; this, as you said, could definitely be an issue. [/FONT]
[FONT="]I also doubt my Grand OEM board has a VRM heatsink or spreader; considering the majority of the images of VRM heat sinks are incredibly varied (Google search), the only way I think I could find the answer (including evidence) to this is through at least an hour of research. Any ideas?[/FONT]
[FONT="]And still for the most part you are stating that generally my only problem would be heat, aside from other compatibility issues that may arise; am I correct?[/FONT]
[FONT="]I would definitely say that power phase counts are both interesting and complicated, from what I read. Im not sure what part in my particular system is the VRM, but I might just look it up. Aside from dust particles, would leaving the side of my system open help the heat issue?[/FONT]
1. Ok awesome, how do you feel about TIGERDIRECT.com
2. I looked this up, but I am still confused about what you mean. Could you please elaborate; do you mean I should look for low latency CAS RAM?
3. To be completely honest, I really would rather have the general memory be 2gb a piece and stay with two of the 1gb I am currently running; I have to take into consideration that this PC was not built for high performance gaming. I really would like to replace all of the stock RAM in hopes of increased performance; thank you both very much for this suggestion though.
[FONT="]4. Crucial 4GB Kit (2GBx2) DDR2 (PC2-6400) DIMM 240-Pin Desktop Memory Modules CT2CP25664AA800:[/FONT]
[FONT="]Is this compatible? It doesnt state the mhz; perhaps you could explain this easily, if not I will look it up and I appreciate it either way. Its only $55 plus whatever shipping might be. As far as the OS is concerned, I actually already have a 64bit of Windows 7 on call, so Im glad I dont have to fork out the extra $100 for that haha. Also Id like to note that although I will be getting a high performance PC, it doesnt matter too much because this will not only be a learning experience, but also a great decked out OEM for my wife when it all said and done. [/FONT]
5. Thank you for all this information and rock on; teach that baby everything you know. This world needs people like us who are willing to help; let our numbers grow until Earth and beyond is filled with us and there is no more ignorance.
Wow. I typed out a gigantic response to you to answer all your questions about VRMs and what not, but somehow in the process of editing it for a typo it all got deleted. Huge bummer. Maybe I'll try again tomorrow, but that took a very long time. Grrrrrrrrr!
Let me quote something from a Microsoft support page:
1. "(...) if you have a video card that has 256 MB of on-board memory (VRAM), that memory must be mapped within the first 4 GB of address space. If 4 GB of system memory is already installed, part of that address space must be reserved by the graphics memory mapping. Graphics memory mapping overwrites a part of the system memory. These conditions reduce the total amount of system memory that is available to the operating system.".
So as pointed on an earlier post, the memory from a GPU does affect the amount of available RAM, as part of its VRAM is mapped to system memory. Then there are also other factors that affect the amount of RAM available, generally to a lesser extent than VRAM, given that the proposed amount to cover these other factors is 256 MB. We're then left with the following formula: 4 GB - 256 MB - 1 GB (GPU VRAM) = 2,75 GB of available RAM, which is what you generally see available on a 32 bit OS, regardless of how much RAM is installed, past 4 GB.
2. What I meant is that past-generations 4-core processors, moderately over-clocked, will deem the HD 5770 as the limiting factor. Consider the i5-760 at 3,5 GHz (25% over-clock), which should be sufficient to feed enough information to keep the HD 5770 at full throttle, during games that would stress the system as much.
3. From what I gather, your PSU is able to deliver 34 A on the 12 V rail, which means 408 W (34 x 12= 408). Even if we are conservative and drop that by 50 W, it will still manage a single HD 7850 by a long shot - scroll down for power consumption results on Anandtech's 7850 benchmarks. As for your motherboard, I would not venture myself with anything past a new CPU/extra RAM and as BigChickenJim proposes, depending on your choice, that's stretching it. There are a couple of details that you want to shave off by acquiring a new motherboard eventually, like the slightly outdated RAM, the seemingly poor power phasing/VRM's that won't allow you to install higher TDP CPU's safely, the absence of the over-clocking venue due to BIOS limitations. These considerations ought to be held into account and these are why I wouldn't feel comfortable suggesting you upgrading past the newer CPU and extra RAM point.
4. If you can save up money by acquiring only a 2 GB module and be set with 6 GB, which shouldn't hinder you in any way, why not? Your 2 modules are DDR2 PC6400, which run at 800 MHz and that's what you should take into account.
5. Again, I'm not big on prices there, but you can probably save enough money going with a X4 840 or a X4 820, to acquire the extra RAM and either way, you're going to double the amount of cores, at the very least, which games are benefiting from, more and more. Some more numbers regarding L3 cache versus no L3 cache for gaming, here (last results). Around 15% for the best result, but I too wouldn't acquire a CPU that's runs 12,5% slower than another (based on clock speed alone), because of the L3 cache. I proposed the X4 820 because it's already a significant upgrade over your X2 240, so you would likely relieve your system enough until any future upgrades, at an even lower price, versus the X4 840.
6. Snap! Don't get me started with the cravings at 5 AM, please!
7. It came out a bit confusing. It doesn't interfere with physical drives' speeds. You speed up applications that will constantly write/read from the storage point, because you'll be using RAM as physical space (as you put it), which is substantially faster than HDD's/SSD's, simply put. The downside is that, whereas HDD/SSD don't lose data when the power goes off, RAM gets reset. That's why you'd have to move data back to the RAM disk every time after shutting down. Also, as noted, this is only relevant on systems with a significant amount of spare RAM, which isn't the case.
P.S.: BigChickenJim, I hope everything goes well. Congratulations!
JD
Ah, I see thank you for that elaboration; would you consider me to be at risk of bottleneck if I obtained a 7850, with the 840 or 820? I just don’t want to create a similar problem in the process of my upgrade. (note I am starting to steer clear of the 955 haha) Thank you for the suggestion for as far as the super upgrade; an I5 does sound quite amazing.
If it will handle it, that is totally fine with me; I fear though that it will just become another bottleneck situation.
I do have to say, however, I have only four RAM slots. Therefore if I remove only one 1gb stick of RAM and replace it with a 2gb stick of RAM, my total will only be 5gb. I think I would rather replace two 1gb with two 2gb and eventually get the exact same RAM for the other two slots.
Although I appreciate your concern, I think if I choose to avoid the 955 I’m going to have to purchase the 840 to be completely happy; it is interesting how the L3 cache tends to help certain aspects though.
I wanted to make sure I’ve understood this correctly: The fps drops are at specific times, areas, and levels for the most part (acknowledged through constant and repeated observation); would this happen in a bottleneck? Most games run pretty decent, as I’ve said Skyrim and others; I just want to make sure this is truly the issue and not one of my famous game issues.
Are there many differences to GDDR5 RAM and other types of similar RAM?
I’ve found this here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GDDR5 and am wondering if it is based off DDR3, why didn’t they just make it compatible with DDR3? I am assuming that this is yet another marketing ploy.
“Like its predecessor, GDDR4, GDDR5 is based on DDR3 SDRAM memory which has double the data lines compared to DDR2 SDRAM, but GDDR5 also has 8-bit wide prefetch buffers similar to GDDR4.”
I just tried another game, a lower type 2-D/3-D game (Mark of the Ninja), that left me with 61-108 RAM free. I’m starting to question whether I was correct to assume memory as a big issue; regardless if it is a big issue or small issue, I still wouldn’t mind a RAM and CPU upgrade that could bring me to a decent stand point.
I have read that you can check the amps of a PSU and find the +12 Volt consumption of your PC to find if a PSU is good enough considering power consumption.