Massive Fps Drops

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John Dime

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May 6, 2013
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Cheers, BigChickenJim! If you happen to have any information to complement my posts, please feel free to add it.

I'll be away for a few days and don't know whether I'll get the chance to sit down and reply, taking my time as I normally do.

In any case, DeathBestowerX, I trust BigChickenJim is more than capable of answering whichever additional questions that may arise. I'll check in later on in the week.

Until then, amigos!

JD
 
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1.As a quick reminder, GDDR5 is specific to VRAM found on a graphics card. It is not the same as DDR3 or DDR2 and you therefore can't use it as system memory. However, when you build a new rig, a GDDR5 graphics card will work fine with DDR3 system memory just as your current DDR2 works fine with GDDR5.

2. And yes, your specific areas of performance drop indicate (to me, at least) a CPU bottleneck. That's why I'm unsure your RAM upgrade will solve your problems. It will help on a general average frame rate level, but it won't kill a CPU bottleneck or improve your minimum frames in specific CPU-intensive scenarios.


I have a quick second and would like to point out that I will be reviewing and responding to the VRM post as soon as I get a chance; thank you again for your patience.

1. Ah, I may not of understood that at the time of post, otherwise my memory is just not doing to well haha; thank you for clearing that up, it is much appreciated.

2. Okay thank you for that information. RAM still sounds nice, but I have also noticed that in Mark of the Ninja it seems like even at 60 fps constant, (61-62 after restart for some reason) still has specific points where it stutters. I have seen similar issues with old games like Black & White, where stutter seems to occur regardless of fps; any theory on why this could be an issue? I will be testing certain aspects such as compatibility modes, in order to assess the problem.
 
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I have a quick second and would like to point out that I will be reviewing and responding to the VRM post as soon as I get a chance; thank you again for your patience.

1. Ah, I may not of understood that at the time of post, otherwise my memory is just not doing to well haha; thank you for clearing that up, it is much appreciated.

2. Okay thank you for that information. RAM still sounds nice, but I have also noticed that in Mark of the Ninja it seems like even at 60 fps constant, (61-62 after restart for some reason) still has specific points where it stutters. I have seen similar issues with old games like Black & White, where stutter seems to occur regardless of fps; any theory on why this could be an issue? I will be testing certain aspects such as compatibility modes, in order to assess the problem.


I apologize, I still haven't got to the other post; I will get back to the other post as soon as I can tomorrow.

I must note however: Mark of the Ninja has these small almost unnoticeable stuttering points even on the XBOX360. So I won't be adding this to the bottleneck/RAM/crappy system issue list haha.
 

BigChickenJim

Senior member
Jul 1, 2013
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I have a quick second and would like to point out that I will be reviewing and responding to the VRM post as soon as I get a chance; thank you again for your patience.
Okay thank you for that information. RAM still sounds nice, but I have also noticed that in Mark of the Ninja it seems like even at 60 fps constant, (61-62 after restart for some reason) still has specific points where it stutters. I have seen similar issues with old games like Black & White, where stutter seems to occur regardless of fps; any theory on why this could be an issue? I will be testing certain aspects such as compatibility modes, in order to assess the problem.

Hangs like what you describe can be rather difficult to diagnose without having access to the computer. Judging from your description, I'd say that what you are seeing is a form of microstutter. The cause of microstutter is a little more difficult to determine than a regular frame rate drop, but since I already have detailed information about your system I can make two educated guesses:

1. Your CPU is struggling to maintain pace with your graphics card's frame rendering. This is normally something you'd see in a Crossfire configuration using alternate frame rendering, but I have heard of strange cases of stutter in single GPU systems utilizing older or underpowered CPUs. This theory would fit cleanly with our theories about your CPU being a bottleneck, and the fact it only occurs at specific, predictable place in the games you mentioned supports that theory as well.

2. The games' programming is flawed. This is arguably the most common cause of strange, event-specific stuttering in video games. No piece of programming is perfect, and I've read many, many accounts of certain games skipping, hanging, or stuttering even on high-end machines. I don't have enough of a coding background to explain this in detail, but if the issues are occurring on both the 360 and the PC then this is the most likely culprit in Mark of the Ninja.
 
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Let's first take a look at where the VRMs we're talking about are located. They are almost universally located to the left of the processor socket, though sometimes they are also located above the socket. Unsinked VRMs look like this:









If the VRMs have heatsinks, they'll look something like this (same position, though note that there is also a phase above the socket):




Your motherboard looks like this:




[FONT=&quot]Obviously you have no VRM heatsinks. Now we need to determine what the phase count of your board is. The easiest way to do this is to count the chokes in each phase. This method isn't 100% reliable since it is possible for more than one phase to use a single choke, but that's very rare. This is generally the best method to use if a manufacturer doesn't disclose the board's phase count. The chokes on your board are here:[/FONT]




You have four chokes, so you've got a four-phase board. It's likely a 3 + 1. The "+" number simply means that one of the phases is supplying other components while three of them are supplying the CPU. 3 + 1 is a very low phase count. My board is a 4 +1; I overclock slightly on it because I have a 95W TDP CPU, VRM heatsinks, and, most importantly, phenomenal case airflow. I wouldn't even think about overclocking on a 3 + 1 board, and I'd be very careful about putting a higher TDP (95 and up) onto it without fantastic case cooling. That recommendation is also based on the fact that when it comes to VRMs, quality matters. Low quality MOFSETs (the working units inside the VRMs) or bad VRM design are very dangerous at higher wattages, and especially so with lower phase counts.

Yes, technically your main issues will still be heat related. However, I'd like to caution you not to brush them off. Catastrophic VRM failure often takes out the CPU as well as the motherboard and can even result in explosions or fire inside your case. There are horror stories out there about house fires caused by VRM overload. Most modern mainboards have throttling mechanisms in place to prevent such a disaster, but I'm guessing yours does not. Without a way to tell for certain, I'd be very, very wary of stressing them beyond what they were designed for.

You could theoretically take the side off your case and point a house fan in there, but to be honest if you're going to have to resort to such a tactic the upgrade probably isn't a very good idea. Besides, such a setup is just asking for trouble. Computer cases are closed environments for a reason. You could try rigging fans inside the case, but that could be tricky.



I added numbers to your questions/statements in order respond more easily. Here we go.

1. Tiger Direct has been around for quite a while and many people love it. I've never used it, so I can't recommend it. I'd personally stick with Newegg, but you'll likely be fine with TD.

2. Don't worry about RAM timings or latency if you're going to replace all of your modules like you've stated you want to. It's only an issue if you're mixing and matching RAM.

3. Good choice. When you don't know the exact specifications of your current memory and don't have a reliable way of finding the information, it simply makes more sense to start over and replace it all at once.

4. PC2-6400 equates to 800MHz, and that's the highest speed your board can handle, so you're good there. Everything else looks good too except one little thing: I can't seem to figure out if those modules are EEC or non-EEC. I have very limited knowledge of EEC functionality outside of the fact that it includes an error-checking chip, but I've read many posts stating that EEC modules can be used on non-EEC boards. However, I've also read accounts of computers refusing to boot if they attempt to run EEC modules on a non-EEC board. Because of this, I'd say your best bet is to stick to modules that definitively meet all the criteria you're looking for. Don't resort to finger-crossing or guesswork if you don't have to.

Also, I'd like to point out that the kit you posted only includes 2 x 2GB modules. You'd need two of those kits to reach your board's 8GB maximum (after the OS upgrade). 4GB won't be enough and 5 or 6GB will force you into single-channel territory, so 8GB is really your only option here. That means you're looking at $110, not $55.

5. I am only a hobbyist and am far from an expert, but like I've said before I love this stuff and am more than happy to pass my limited knowledge on to people if it will help them solve a problem.

As for eliminating ignorance... well, let's not hold our collective breath.


I hope you don't mind, but I have omitted the images in your post to make the response smaller; I am unsure if this forum includes quoted post images in responses.


Concerning the VRM posts:

Picture two confused me a bit haha; Could you tell me what color lines hold the area you are speaking off?






Picture three is weirdly enough not my mobo, however, it is similar. If you can please point out what the VRM heatsinks look like, It would be very helpful. I definitely have four phase counts; two of them separated by at least a phase count worth of space and the other two attached to each other. Not sure if that makes a difference considering your explanation. I must ask though are these phases or chokes? The way you explain it leads me to believe phases, but you call them chokes; thank you for future clarification.



I must ask due to your suggestion; am I safe going with an 840 considering the fact that it is a 95w?







I understand your concern with heat issues and as I am well aware that cases help wear and tear, I have considered what you have said and I don’t believe I will be using any poor man fixes haha; Thank you for these suggestions.


I am going to number the second part of this, just as you have.
1. I will definitely compare prices; as a past (5 years ago) Tiger Direct purchaser I would recommend them as long as the price is right. I always like to get opinions though.

2. Okay, awesome; thank you for this information.

3. I assumed having separate types of RAM could have the potential to cause further Issues; thank you for this conformation. Does single-channel status occur even if all slots are filled?

Trust me friend, my PC is one of my ‘babies’; I will take little to no chances.

4. If $110 will get me closer to having a better running system, I believe it is worth it; I love old technology and I believe most of the time I would be better off upgrading old gear for my ‘old’ gaming needs than putting the eight hours plus of research per game into getting these GEMS to run correctly.

5. Well, I totally appreciate all of the help you have given me.

Concerning holding my breath:




We can always hope haha; think zombies, only the smart survive.
 
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I will respond to past posts in a day or so; I apologize, as I haven't had much free time these days. Thank you all for your patience and efforts.
 

BigChickenJim

Senior member
Jul 1, 2013
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Ok, it seems like a little more clarification is needed. Lucky for you, I can't for the life of me get to sleep tonight!

I believe I may have confused you with my mention of chokes. Chokes are not power phases, they are parts of power phases. Each power phase traditionally uses one choke. This is why counting chokes can be helpful when one is trying to determine a board's phase count. The phase itself consists of many different components; chokes just happen to be the most easily recognizable of these due to their size. With that in mind, let's take another look at the motherboard itself.

I will again start with the picture of a motherboard with no VRM heatsinks. The VRMs are the small black structures located behind the larger chokes. These are the components that we are concerned about as they are the workhorses of a power phase. Here's the picture again (VRMs circled in red):



If you can see the VRMs themselves, you know that there is no heatsink on them. The board picture above therefore has no heatsink. This time I'll use a picture of my own motherboard to show what a VRM heatsink looks like. Here it is (the VRM area is circled in red, the chokes are circled in yellow):



Note that while the chokes are still visible, the VRMs themselves are covered by the heatspreader structures. This is what you want to see on a board with a low phase count. It means that the manufacturer has taken steps to prevent catastrophic overheating under heavy loads. Unfortunately, your board does not have VRM heatsinks. The original picture I posted is indeed a version of your board, but using your description I was able to find what I believe to be a closer match (side note: this is an excellent illustration of how loosely these OEM boards are manufactured; even two boards with exactly the same designation can look different). Here is your board (VRMs are denoted by the red lines, chokes by the yellow. Apologies for the small picture, it's all I could find):



As you can clearly see, the VRMs are exposed. They have no heatsinks whatsoever on them. You can also see that even though the choke position is slightly different than that of the original picture I posted, there are still only four chokes. That means that you still have a board with a phase count of 4.

As I mentioned before, no VRM heatsinks combined with mediocre-to-poor case airflow and a high TDP processor can often lead to trouble. That is doubly true on an OEM board with cheap VRMs that were likely not designed to withstand much more than the processor that was originally installed. Ironically, the CPU cooler that you would purchase to keep your new chip cool would also be an issue as it would blow air towards your exhaust instead of stirring up the air around the chip and, by extension, the VRMs as a stock cooler would.

Because of all this, my answer to your question about the 95W TDP 840 being safe in your system would be no. I am almost certain that a 125W TDP CPU would blow your board, and I'm about 70% convinced that the same would happen with a 95W. Still, as JD pointed out a while back there are several threads on other sites involving people attempting a similar upgrade on your same motherbaord. However, none of those threads include an update on system health several months down the line. VRM failure doesn't always occur the moment you fire up a new system; it can take weeks or even several months. Without knowing that down-the-road information I have no choice but to recommend that you err on the side of caution and avoid the 840. I know that's not really what you want to hear and there is indeed a chance that you'd have no issues, but it's a rather large risk--and I really don't like rather large risks.

The bottom line here is that your current rig isn't a good candidate for a gut (CPU/motherboard) upgrade. Why would you spend money on an upgrade that could potentially destroy a perfectly good desktop when you could simply put the money towards a new build? Your current rig may not be able to game well anymore, but that doesn't mean you couldn't turn it into an office computer or a web browser or even a home theater machine. You can go ahead with the RAM upgrade and I'm happy to help with that, but I just think the processor upgrade is a bad idea on that board. I'm sorry, friend, but that rig is just never going to be able to safely perform at the level that you want it to.

Hopefully that answered your remaining questions about VRMs and cleared up my opinion on your CPU upgrade plans. Now it's 3 AM and I'm still wide awake. Off to find something else to do until the sun comes up, I guess...
 
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QUOTE=BigChickenJim;35340891]Ok, it seems like a little more clarification is needed. Lucky for you, I can't for the life of me get to sleep tonight!

1. I believe I may have confused you with my mention of chokes. Chokes are not power phases, they are parts of power phases. Each power phase traditionally uses one choke. This is why counting chokes can be helpful when one is trying to determine a board's phase count. The phase itself consists of many different components; chokes just happen to be the most easily recognizable of these due to their size. With that in mind, let's take another look at the motherboard itself.

2. I will again start with the picture of a motherboard with no VRM heatsinks. The VRMs are the small black structures located behind the larger chokes. These are the components that we are concerned about as they are the workhorses of a power phase. Here's the picture again (VRMs circled in red):



If you can see the VRMs themselves, you know that there is no heatsink on them. The board picture above therefore has no heatsink. This time I'll use a picture of my own motherboard to show what a VRM heatsink looks like. Here it is (the VRM area is circled in red, the chokes are circled in yellow):



Note that while the chokes are still visible, the VRMs themselves are covered by the heatspreader structures. This is what you want to see on a board with a low phase count. It means that the manufacturer has taken steps to prevent catastrophic overheating under heavy loads. Unfortunately, your board does not have VRM heatsinks. The original picture I posted is indeed a version of your board, but using your description I was able to find what I believe to be a closer match (side note: this is an excellent illustration of how loosely these OEM boards are manufactured; even two boards with exactly the same designation can look different). Here is your board (VRMs are denoted by the red lines, chokes by the yellow. Apologies for the small picture, it's all I could find):



As you can clearly see, the VRMs are exposed. They have no heatsinks whatsoever on them. You can also see that even though the choke position is slightly different than that of the original picture I posted, there are still only four chokes. That means that you still have a board with a phase count of 4.

As I mentioned before, no VRM heatsinks combined with mediocre-to-poor case airflow and a high TDP processor can often lead to trouble. That is doubly true on an OEM board with cheap VRMs that were likely not designed to withstand much more than the processor that was originally installed. Ironically, the CPU cooler that you would purchase to keep your new chip cool would also be an issue as it would blow air towards your exhaust instead of stirring up the air around the chip and, by extension, the VRMs as a stock cooler would.

3. Because of all this, my answer to your question about the 95W TDP 840 being safe in your system would be no. I am almost certain that a 125W TDP CPU would blow your board, and I'm about 70% convinced that the same would happen with a 95W. Still, as JD pointed out a while back there are several threads on other sites involving people attempting a similar upgrade on your same motherbaord. However, none of those threads include an update on system health several months down the line. VRM failure doesn't always occur the moment you fire up a new system; it can take weeks or even several months. Without knowing that down-the-road information I have no choice but to recommend that you err on the side of caution and avoid the 840. I know that's not really what you want to hear and there is indeed a chance that you'd have no issues, but it's a rather large risk--and I really don't like rather large risks.

The bottom line here is that your current rig isn't a good candidate for a gut (CPU/motherboard) upgrade. Why would you spend money on an upgrade that could potentially destroy a perfectly good desktop when you could simply put the money towards a new build? Your current rig may not be able to game well anymore, but that doesn't mean you couldn't turn it into an office computer or a web browser or even a home theater machine. You can go ahead with the RAM upgrade and I'm happy to help with that, but I just think the processor upgrade is a bad idea on that board. I'm sorry, friend, but that rig is just never going to be able to safely perform at the level that you want it to.

Hopefully that answered your remaining questions about VRMs and cleared up my opinion on your CPU upgrade plans. Now it's 3 AM and I'm still wide awake. Off to find something else to do until the sun comes up, I guess...[/QUOTE]


I realize that I still have your post to respond to John Dime, but while VRM is still fresh in my mind I would like to respond to BigChickenJim.



1. After getting some sleep and rereading that post, I came to the realization of what was being said. I apologize; I've had some stressful situations cross my path lately. Thank you extra info also.

2. Okay thank you for clarifying; I was pretty sure those were my VRMs, but mine just seem a bit different up close (jagged due to failed creation haha crappy OEM
) and as you stated, no they do not have heatsinks. That is definitely close to my mobo , if not the exact model.

3. I must ask, does this out rule low TDP chips? The fact is that I am unable to save money with a house full of children and pets; the only break I ever get is tax time, in which the super upgrade shall arise.
I will definitely try to save for RAM and make that my next purchase (after a new external HDD). I have noticed though that some of my issues may just stem from bad programming as you've stated in the second post; games that have massive fps dips: I blame bottleneck, incapability,(as you’ve said) or bad read speeds.

" Your CPU is struggling to maintain pace with your graphics card's frame rendering. This is normally something you'd see in a Crossfire configuration using alternate frame rendering, but I have heard of strange cases of stutter in single GPU systems utilizing older or underpowered CPUs. This theory would fit cleanly with our theories about your CPU being a bottleneck, and the fact it only occurs at specific, predictable place in the games you mentioned supports that theory as well."

Are you saying the only difference here is that it can’t keep up opposed to actual limitation?


“ Ironically, the CPU cooler that you would purchase to keep your new chip cool would also be an issue as it would blow air towards your exhaust instead of stirring up the air around the chip and, by extension, the VRMs as a stock cooler would. “


How can I look for and prevent this in the future?



[FONT=&quot]
Thank you for you honesty; I only want to hear the truth no matter how bad it sucks haha. Better safe and a little upset than sorry and alotta upset.


Thank you very much for your effort and patience. By the way, insomnia can be a gift and a curse, especially with a new child on the way; use it wisely.

John Dime you are next; hope your back by then haha.
[/FONT]
 

John Dime

Member
May 6, 2013
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Because of all this, my answer to your question about the 95W TDP 840 being safe in your system would be no. I am almost certain that a 125W TDP CPU would blow your board, and I'm about 70% convinced that the same would happen with a 95W. Still, as JD pointed out a while back there are several threads on other sites involving people attempting a similar upgrade on your same motherbaord. However, none of those threads include an update on system health several months down the line. VRM failure doesn't always occur the moment you fire up a new system; it can take weeks or even several months. Without knowing that down-the-road information I have no choice but to recommend that you err on the side of caution and avoid the 840. I know that's not really what you want to hear and there is indeed a chance that you'd have no issues, but it's a rather large risk--and I really don't like rather large risks.

The bottom line here is that your current rig isn't a good candidate for a gut (CPU/motherboard) upgrade. Why would you spend money on an upgrade that could potentially destroy a perfectly good desktop when you could simply put the money towards a new build? Your current rig may not be able to game well anymore, but that doesn't mean you couldn't turn it into an office computer or a web browser or even a home theater machine. You can go ahead with the RAM upgrade and I'm happy to help with that, but I just think the processor upgrade is a bad idea on that board. I'm sorry, friend, but that rig is just never going to be able to safely perform at the level that you want it to.

Howdy, folks!

I read what was posted in the meantime, while I was away, and decided to present what can hopefully be considered evidence towards supporting the theory that the motherboard will actually handle, at least, a Phenom II X4 840.

Firstly, we have this video, where a X4 9750 CPU is installed on a Dell Inspiron 546. The motherboard should approximately be the same as DeathBestowerX's - notice the absence of heat sinks on top of the VRM's. The X4 9750 is a AM2+ CPU with a TDP of 125 W. We're taken back to the argument, valid in my opinion, that the degradation, albeit rapid in potential, doesn't take place overnight and given that we don't have a sporadic update on how the system is coping (the poster of the video did however answer some questions at least a year after the modification, without pointing out any issue), we should, by default, be conservative and assume that those bare VRM's may not be able to handle the heat. Which takes us to the relevant piece of information:

The sixth post here, which I confirmed to be accurate, resorting to the information displayed here. I'm assuming the motherboard being used with that system is the same we've been considering, of which I don't have any reason to think otherwise, bearing also in mind the nomenclature of this refurbished system.

As stated, we want to be conservative if we are indeed trying to help out. That's why I understand where BigChickenJim is coming from and do appreciate his concerns, but in this case, given that it's do or die until the purchase of a new computer and because we have now established a suggestive base of evidence that begins to support the theory that the motherboard will at least handle a 95 W TDP, as also suggested by this CPU compatibility list we're already acquainted with, I'm comfortable advising the upgrade to a X4 840, tops. I would be further assured by the installation of decent fans where the case allows to secure good airflow and by a side-port modification to install an extra intake fan, if possible (there's also the educational value of this proposed task to consider, which from what I gather, will interest DeathBestowerX!). Otherwise, you should be fine, as long as you closely monitor the temperatures and inspect the heat being exhausted by the rear fan (a rough indication of how warm it is, inside the case).

JD
 

BigChickenJim

Senior member
Jul 1, 2013
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Actually, I don't disagree. If OP is able to get some more air flowing across the board he may very well be fine. Sticking with a stock cooler and adding a side fan (or even a couple of zip-tie mounted interior fans) will help in this regard. It does have to be said that the idea of removing the side panel and using a house fan is not something I'd recommend, especially with animals and children in the house.

I've been operating under the assumption that the airflow would remain unchanged or even become worse due to an aftermarket cooler; if those variables are changed, however, we're looking at a different situation. It's not like I can fairly recommend against this course of action; after all, I overclock (albeit slightly) on a 4 + 1 board with a history of VRM burnout under the assumption that the VRM heatsink, my rather ridiculous airflow (one front 200mm intake, four side-mounted 120mm intakes, one 200mm top exhaust, and one 120mm exhaust), and my board's throttling tendency will prevent any cataclysmic failures.

OP, if you're willing to do the work there are definitely things you can do to at least minimize the risk. You could try adding heatsinks to the VRMS, mounting additional internal fans, and modifying your case as JD suggested. I am in full support of these ideas, though I don't know how much help I'll be able to provide--case modification and mobo heatsink additions are not something I have much experience with. Perhaps JD can step in there.

I still don't recommend the upgrade under your current conditions (I don't want to be the guy who tells you to take a risk and then have you run into a major problem), but if you are willing to put in the work to modify those conditions then I'm all about it. Besides, it might be fun...
 
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Ha, wow and I just thought I would have to respond to one post today.

If you guys don't mind, in the next reply I am going to combine all remaining posts and respond accordingly.

John Dime it seems that you have found some supporting evidence and with the fact that BigChickenJim agrees, it only furthers my hope yet in this machine.

I will read through all and respond better tonight. Thanks again friends, I feel a little better now.
 
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Hey friends, didn't want you to think I forgot about you already; I had to remove a huge tree limb from my grandma's garage roof. I've been a bit sore lately haha, so I haven't had much urge to do anything but rest.

I appreciate all your efforts and your patience. It seems our post has turned into a hot thread at one point, nice job guys, excellent explanations.
 
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1. It's good that you're starting to consider a lower TDP CPU. BigChickenJim did a great job of reiterating why such a shift could gravely compromise your system, where heat is concerned. Given that it's an upgrade for the short term, saving a few dollars and staying within the motherboard's CPU compatibility list, sounds prudent.

2. With that motherboard, you can't over-clock whichever CPU you end up acquiring, therefore, the HD 7850 will necessitate something more powerful to be duly pushed. When I brought it up though, I was thinking of your other upgrade, where from my understanding you're going to get a new motherboard, CPU and so on. Only then, such a leap in GPU power will be justified. For now, the HD 5770 paired with a X4 840, will be a more adequate match.



A decent 500 W would handle it, but as expressed above, my understanding is that you would opt for the HD 7850 come the next upgrade, which means you would still be using your current 500 W PSU to power up your current system. The clarification came about because I wanted to assure you that a decent 500 W PSU is able to handle a single HD 7850. When I mean decent, I'm referring to a PSU that doesn't have noteworthy fluctuations where continuous power delivery is concerned. If my understanding is correct then, for your next system, you could acquire another 500 W PSU, if you don't intend to over-clock any component and if you don't plan on adding a second GPU,

3. but make sure it's at least 80 Plus certified, so you know it's efficient enough. Read more about 80 Plus here and here.



4. So you have 4 x 1 GB modules installed. I agree with you then, it makes more sense to get 2 x 2 GB modules and see how the system copes with 6 GB of RAM.



5. Given that you can't over-clock the CPU, I agree. You'll benefit more from +400 MHz/core, then from -400 MHz/core + 4 MB of L3 cache.



6. Yes. As BigChickenJim points, it's likely a CPU bottle-neck. An outdated 2-core CPU running at 2.8 GHz isn't much of a gaming CPU, concerning more recent games. Personally, I was running my 2-core E8500 at 4.00 GHz, and changing from that to a stock, turbo-disabled 3570K (running at 3.4 GHz), did cause my HD 5850 to become the limiting factor in highly demanding games like Crysis 3. These two CPU's are drastically different, architecturally, but the mere availability of 2 more cores does make a significant difference. That's why the old 4-core Q6600 is still a great chip to be reckoned with, now that more applications are taking advantage of multiple cores.




7. GraphicsDDR memory is different from DDR memory where voltage, clock speeds, bandwidth and latency are concerned, from what I understand. GDDR5 runs at a lower voltage versus DDR3. DDR3 runs at lower latencies than GDRR5, but the latter counters this otherwise performance-hindering characteristic by having a higher clock speed and, subsequently, higher bandwidth, possibilitated, among other factors by the lower heat output, thanks to being able to function at lower voltages. In short, even though GDDR5 (and GDDR4), is based on DDR3, GDDR is optimized for GPU's and can't be utilized as system memory as is, if that's what you're inquiring. I'm guessing a different memory controller would be required, as well as different memory sockets and modules (read, more expensive) - it's not too cost-efficient, given also that increasing current RAM bandwidth isn't really necessary for the majority of computer users.

I'm afraid I can't go any further here, because my own understanding of the subject is limited. As has happened before, I briefly studied it in order to provide a substantiated explanation and even though I reckon I clarified it for the most part, I suggest you delve deeper on your own if you wish to deepen your understanding.



8. That game requires 2 GB of RAM to run, according to its recommended settings. Furthermore, every other requirement is fairly light and from what I gather, your computer shouldn't have any issue running it. Now, the fact that practically all RAM is utilized with such a light title, it's a definitive indication that your system isn't sporting a sufficient amount of RAM to handle more demanding titles, but when it comes to those, I'll make it clear that I agree with BigChickenJim - the X2 240 is the most limiting factor.

9. A small addendum: with AMD RAM disk, you decrease the writing and reading times of applications that make use of it, because RAM is much faster than current physical drives, even SSD's. If we revert this, it can be used to explain why having a system resort to virtual memory (made available by a physical drive), instead of resorting to physical memory, slows it down significantly and may result in FPS drops, while gaming. Given the evidence you've provided thus far, this is why I don't exclude RAM as being yet another culprit. Be that as it may, I'll reaffirm that while gaming at 720p and higher, the relevance of components goes like this: GPU > CPU > RAM.



10. The PSU's themselves have a table with the values in question, generally. The voltages (V), respective amperage/current (I) and wattage/power (W). The formula to calculate wattage/power, which I employed earlier, is W = V x I. Then you have the components of the computer, for which wattage requirements are normally available on the manufacturers websites. For instance, a CPU's TDP approximately reflects the maximum amount of power, on paper, that it will draw while running at stock conditions, fully loaded. Take your X2 240, with its TDP at 65 W. Given that nowadays CPU's draw power from the 12 V rail, you'd need:

65 = 12 x I
65 / 12 = I
5.42 ~ I


around 5.42 Amps from the 12 V rail to power that CPU at full load. You can then do the same for the GPU, add them up and if you're within the PSU specifications (consider a 5 to 10% margin of error for the results, if you're basing the values on TDP), you're good to go.

JD


1. Yeah, I’d just rather not see this machine take a turn for the worse; we have been through so much haha.

2. Okay, thank you for clarifying that, I could totally see that being beneficial. However, I want an Nvidia; I am sick of ATI CCC errors and such. Also I have heard in comparison Nvidia is king. Thank you for this suggestion though friend. I may grab up a new PSU in the process of a new upgrade, just to have things ‘perfect’. My current PSU is a CoolMax model-500b; any thoughts on this current PSU.

3. Thank you for informing me of this; I will definitely reference it when I am purchasing a new PSU.

4. Ok thank you thank you for your support; My ultimate goal is to obtain two of the 2x2gb modules for safety precautions.

5. Awesome, again thank you for the support

6. Okay, I am glad to hear these conformations, as I also am leaning more towards a bottleneck; my higher physical demanding games do tend to have more issues it seems, where others run fairly fantastic if you disregard game programing issues.

7. Ah, I was confused thinking GDDR5 was RAM modules; I had no idea it was my GPU RAM. This was a good comparison elaboration though and I really appreciate it. Are you stating that it would be possible to utilize GDDR5 as physical RAM?

8. Right on, new CPU here I come.

9. Okay cool, thank you for clearing that up; unfortunately RAM has to be my first purchase due to the fact that I may have to buy heatspreaders and possibly a new cooling unit for the CPU; much more expensive.

10. Well, that was a bit confusing without being able to get to my PSU table; I figure it would be smarter to just check the unit. Thank you though, I will be trying to understand this tomorrow when I have a bit more time.


I apologize for not responding to the other post as I said I would; trying to keep my word has been like trying to fly without Goku (DBZ) as my teacher.
 

John Dime

Member
May 6, 2013
71
0
0
Okay, thank you for clarifying that, I could totally see that being beneficial. However, I want an Nvidia; I am sick of ATI CCC errors and such. Also I have heard in comparison Nvidia is king.

Currently, NVIDIA has the most powerful GPU's, where gaming is concerned, at least. However, AMD will shortly (in two months, possibly) launch their HD 9xxx cards, which may very well be forces to be reckoned with. It's somewhat early on and many of the proposed benchmarks lack certification, simply put, therefore we're not yet properly acquainted with the upcoming HD 9xxx series, but these cards are supposed to balance the table. In any case, unless you go for the top-of-the-line choices, you will be able to find equiparable products on both sides.

As far as the CCC errors go, I'm inclined to point out the OS as the culprit and if you install the 64 bit version in the meantime, you can ascertain whether I'm correct or not. In any case, when it comes to the future acquisition, I'm sure you'll have a vaster understanding of most of the factors involved and will be able to make an informed decision.

My current PSU is a CoolMax model-500b; any thoughts on this current PSU.

If this is your PSU model, then it's capable of handling your system with the addition of the X4 840 or similarly power-hungry CPU. If you were to utilize it to power up something like the HD 7850, you would need an extra connector to feed the second 6-pin port this GPU possesses, as your PSU only sports one 6-pin connector. Otherwise, if you are planning on maintaining it as the power source for the Dell, it will suffice. I should note that it's not a particularly good model (no 80 Plus certification), but bearing in mind that your system isn't going to draw more than 250 W under full load (rough estimate), with inefficiencies accounted for, you have a safe headroom, undoubtedly.

Ah, I was confused thinking GDDR5 was RAM modules; I had no idea it was my GPU RAM. This was a good comparison elaboration though and I really appreciate it. Are you stating that it would be possible to utilize GDDR5 as physical RAM?

Not without the aforementioned changes, and perhaps some more, which aren't cost-efficient. As was also mentioned, there's no need for the GDDR5 level of memory bandwidth in the large majority of computers. Those who do benefit from higher-clocked memory, have at their disposal high rated DDR3, and soon enough DDR4, to meet their needs or inclinations.

Okay cool, thank you for clearing that up; unfortunately RAM has to be my first purchase due to the fact that I may have to buy heatspreaders and possibly a new cooling unit for the CPU; much more expensive.

In fact, I would suggest you to:

1. Install the 64 bit version of Windows;
2. Install more RAM and
3. Install the new CPU.

Not only goes from cheapest to priciest, given that you already have a 64 bit copy of Windows, but this progression will ensure that you do need upgrade 2. if 1. doesn't resolve your issues and 3. if the same applies to 2.; not that at this point there's much doubt left about what should be replaced for your system to properly handle games, but that's the order I would follow, to be on the certainty side. What's more, you can install the new OS as soon as you've backed up your essentials, if you so desire.

As far heat goes, I didn't want to pursue the debate any further without a reply from you, but if you happen be interested in venturing down the case modification path, it may be of great service to your system, where longevity is concerned, as BigChickenJim proposes. Installing heat sinks on your VRM's could be somewhat tricky, given the layout of the screw-holes on the motherboard, but I'm certain something can be arranged, if you are inclined towards this solution and can handle a precision tool.

I apologize for not responding to the other post as I said I would; trying to keep my word has been like trying to fly without Goku (DBZ) as my teacher.

Yes, I think I got the reference!

Oh by the way, thank you John Dime.

You're welcome. This has been a productive exercise, as far as I'm concerned, so thanks for your interest too.

JD
 
Last edited:

BigChickenJim

Senior member
Jul 1, 2013
239
0
0
I believe I've seen some references to people simply gluing heatsinks to their VRMs with non-conductive adhesive or even using tape. The tricky bit will be applying the TIM. Physical TIM strips may be the best solution. I'd also recommend mounting some fans in the case if you have the PSU capability, but I'd need a picture of the case's interior to give good guidance there.

OP, you should definitely heed JD's upgrade path advice. It'll help us close the case once and for all and also allow you to learn without overwhelming yourself.
 

John Dime

Member
May 6, 2013
71
0
0
I believe I've seen some references to people simply gluing heatsinks to their VRMs with non-conductive adhesive or even using tape. The tricky bit will be applying the TIM. Physical TIM strips may be the best solution. I'd also recommend mounting some fans in the case if you have the PSU capability, but I'd need a picture of the case's interior to give good guidance there.

I wanted to bring it up later on, but since you made mention, there's this segment of 3 videos illustrating the installation of a copper heat sink on the MOSFET's, cut to fit the motherboard in question, where the installer resorts to what I believe you call physical TIM, with two adhesive sides which from what he indicates, should suffice to negate gravity's effect on the heat sink and keep it in place. He does however resort to two screw-holes on the motherboard to further secure it. I would have to analyse the quality of said adhesion before endorsing it, because I never used any, but it looks like a solid solution on a motherboard, as the case is, with an inconvenient screw-hole layout.

JD
 

BigChickenJim

Senior member
Jul 1, 2013
239
0
0
I wanted to bring it up later on, but since you made mention, there's this segment of 3 videos illustrating the installation of a copper heat sink on the MOSFET's, cut to fit the motherboard in question, where the installer resorts to what I believe you call physical TIM, with two adhesive sides which from what he indicates, should suffice to negate gravity's effect on the heat sink and keep it in place. He does however resort to two screw-holes on the motherboard to further secure it. I would have to analyse the quality of said adhesion before endorsing it, because I never used any, but it looks like a solid solution on a motherboard, as the case is, with an inconvenient screw-hole layout.

JD

Nice find! I wonder how long it took him to hack saw that heatsink to spec...
 
Jul 12, 2013
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Hey friends, sorry I haven't responded to the post yet; looks like I have got a bit to learn and respond to. I will try to respond to this tonight as soon as I am able. I want to make a correction: I actually will end up purchasing the external HDD first, as this is necessary when regarding the internal HDD format.
 
Jul 12, 2013
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1. Currently, NVIDIA has the most powerful GPU's, where gaming is concerned, at least. However, AMD will shortly (in two months, possibly) launch their HD 9xxx cards, which may very well be forces to be reckoned with. It's somewhat early on and many of the proposed benchmarks lack certification, simply put, therefore we're not yet properly acquainted with the upcoming HD 9xxx series, but these cards are supposed to balance the table. In any case, unless you go for the top-of-the-line choices, you will be able to find equiparable products on both sides.

As far as the CCC errors go, I'm inclined to point out the OS as the culprit and if you install the 64 bit version in the meantime, you can ascertain whether I'm correct or not. In any case, when it comes to the future acquisition, I'm sure you'll have a vaster understanding of most of the factors involved and will be able to make an informed decision.



2. If this is your PSU model, then it's capable of handling your system with the addition of the X4 840 or similarly power-hungry CPU. If you were to utilize it to power up something like the HD 7850, you would need an extra connector to feed the second 6-pin port this GPU possesses, as your PSU only sports one 6-pin connector. Otherwise, if you are planning on maintaining it as the power source for the Dell, it will suffice. I should note that it's not a particularly good model (no 80 Plus certification), but bearing in mind that your system isn't going to draw more than 250 W under full load (rough estimate), with inefficiencies accounted for, you have a safe headroom, undoubtedly.



3. Not without the aforementioned changes, and perhaps some more, which aren't cost-efficient. As was also mentioned, there's no need for the GDDR5 level of memory bandwidth in the large majority of computers. Those who do benefit from higher-clocked memory, have at their disposal high rated DDR3, and soon enough DDR4, to meet their needs or inclinations.


4.


In fact, I would suggest you to:

1. Install the 64 bit version of Windows;
2. Install more RAM and
3. Install the new CPU.

Not only goes from cheapest to priciest, given that you already have a 64 bit copy of Windows, but this progression will ensure that you do need upgrade 2. if 1. doesn't resolve your issues and 3. if the same applies to 2.; not that at this point there's much doubt left about what should be replaced for your system to properly handle games, but that's the order I would follow, to be on the certainty side. What's more, you can install the new OS as soon as you've backed up your essentials, if you so desire.

As far heat goes, I didn't want to pursue the debate any further without a reply from you, but if you happen be interested in venturing down the case modification path, it may be of great service to your system, where longevity is concerned, as BigChickenJim proposes. Installing heat sinks on your VRM's could be somewhat tricky, given the layout of the screw-holes on the motherboard, but I'm certain something can be arranged, if you are inclined towards this solution and can handle a precision tool.



5. Yes, I think I got the reference!



6. You're welcome. This has been a productive exercise, as far as I'm concerned, so thanks for your interest too.

JD




[FONT=&quot]1. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Thank you for this information, but when I consider the 50+ times I have reinstalled CCC and all of the drivers within two years on two separate GPUs (one integrated), I note only one thing: Drivers or programs are the problem, by no means is it the OS; I can assure you, because I have reinstalled the OS multiple times and CCC installs fine but when I went to upgrade CCC I was instantly thwarted by driver issues in which even a System Restore wouldn’t fix. I’m assuming the drivers made a place in the Registry, as I have seen many strings that I still need to delete before trying yet another reinstall (even after a CCleaner and DriverSweeper run through). Upgrades via Windows Update could also play a roll, as they install drivers and programs of their own. (This kind of stuff is where I actually have knowledge; I know more about programs and fixing OS errors and games than anything else, but I definitely don’t mind suggestions.) The fact is it is tedious and annoying to have to put this kind of effort into something that cost money; this is my main reason for avoiding ATI for the rest of eternity. I have done research for the last couple years and so many others have the same issues with no fix. I had managed about a year ago to figure it out but since then have possibly stored away the solution to my problem (within an external HDD). I really should have posted the solution; I wouldn’t be having these issues still. I will eventually find that solution if able and post it for all the ATI victims…Have patience victims, I have a solution.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Okay, cool thank you. I actually bought my current GPU and had to purchase my current PSU just to properly install it. I definitely will be researching and if needed asking for help when necessary. Regardless of power saving and the slight or grand effects, what do you think of how it performs? ; I should have asked it this way. What factors make a great PSU?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Ah, I thought that was what you were stating; I just wanted to make sure I understood that clearly. I like to learn so I appreciate this info.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]1. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]I appreciate the suggestions, but I’ve got an idea on what I will be doing: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]My first step will be to buy yet another external HDD, which I will use to back everything. My next step would then be to install the RAM, only 2x2gb as I am on a budget. Then I would proceed to install the OS, because I would like a fresh install with the new RAM so I don’t have accumulated baggage from the last RAM (in terms of information writing to the HDD). I’d rather not take the risk of added issues. I can see your concern in finding the issue, but I don’t believe it would matter much if I installed the 64 bit version first, as I don’t really feel like testing through every game once again. I believe it is indeed a hardware issue and I’m willing to spend money to find out; to be honest, I just don’t feel like doing the same tests without a significant hardware upgrade.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Not sure what you mean by “handle a precision tool.” I assume anyone without severe disabilities could handle this task, am I missing something? I will definitely look into VRM heat sinks though, as I could use all the performance upgrades I can get.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]1. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Awesome, I love DBZ; in fact I have DBZ tattoo of Goku and Vegeta standing side by side, it covers the whole top area of my arm.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]


1. [FONT=&quot]You are also welcome, it has definitely been an awesome learning experience.[/FONT]



I will try to respond to the other posts as soon as I get more time. Thank you all for your time and patience.
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]




[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]



[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
 
Jul 12, 2013
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Those were supposed to be number accordingly, but yet another WORD to forum issue has occurred. Strange it is actually different than the last.
 
Jul 12, 2013
144
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I also wanted to state in that last post that one of the reasons I don't believe a 64bit install will help before RAM is that I only have 4gb of RAM total and as you or others stated, ReadyBoost won't make much difference.
 

John Dime

Member
May 6, 2013
71
0
0
Thank you for this information, but when I consider the 50+ times I have reinstalled CCC and all of the drivers within two years on two separate GPUs (one integrated), I note only one thing: Drivers or programs are the problem, by no means is it the OS; I can assure you, because I have reinstalled the OS multiple times and CCC installs fine but when I went to upgrade CCC I was instantly thwarted by driver issues in which even a System Restore wouldn’t fix. I’m assuming the drivers made a place in the Registry, as I have seen many strings that I still need to delete before trying yet another reinstall (even after a CCleaner and DriverSweeper run through). Upgrades via Windows Update could also play a roll, as they install drivers and programs of their own. (This kind of stuff is where I actually have knowledge; I know more about programs and fixing OS errors and games than anything else, but I definitely don’t mind suggestions.) The fact is it is tedious and annoying to have to put this kind of effort into something that cost money; this is my main reason for avoiding ATI for the rest of eternity. I have done research for the last couple years and so many others have the same issues with no fix. I had managed about a year ago to figure it out but since then have possibly stored away the solution to my problem (within an external HDD). I really should have posted the solution; I wouldn’t be having these issues still. I will eventually find that solution if able and post it for all the ATI victims…Have patience victims, I have a solution.

It seems you're in possession of enough evidence to corroborate your inclinations, which suggests me not to pursue this matter any further except for letting you know that I never had any issue with drivers that could not be addressed and solved. This pertains to the installation and removal of drivers across 3 ATI/AMD GPU's, multiple times for each, especially the last one, the HD 5850. I do however note that many people, such as yourself, encounter problems where they are left with less practical options, such as an OS reinstall or a brand change altogether.

You're still going to use the HD 5770 after the 64 bit OS is installed though, am I correct? If so, it may happen that those nasty drivers begin acting properly for once and you end up back with a two-brand option - rather than one - which is normally useful for the consumer, hence my elaboration.

Okay, cool thank you. I actually bought my current GPU and had to purchase my current PSU just to properly install it. I definitely will be researching and if needed asking for help when necessary. Regardless of power saving and the slight or grand effects, what do you think of how it performs? ; I should have asked it this way. What factors make a great PSU?

Given that this component is the one delivering power to the other components, you want it to be a steady power deliverer. Lower quality PSU's may not be able to continuously deliver the amount of power they're advertised for, in which case the advertised value purports to be a peak state, which the PSU cannot maintain, whereas with a quality PSU, the advertised value should be one it continuously delivers without rapid degradation and eventual failure appearing, too fast. Moreover, lower quality PSU's may be subject to abrupt power fluctuations, which themselves can damage the rest of the components.

You have quality PSU's with a lower power output than yours, meant to power light systems. Therefore, power output itself doesn't count towards a high classification quantitatively, but qualitatively.

Finally, in my brief explanation, we come to the already mentioned 80 Plus factor, which pertains to the unit's efficiency. This is particularly relevant because it signifies the PSU is able, the higher the certification, to draw an amount of power from the wall, closer to the power being requested by the components it's powering, without as much headroom, which ultimately translates into less heat being generated and a more prolonged longevity for the unit itself.

Where your particular unit is concerned, I can only speculate because I don't own one. However, given that you have a light system, there shouldn't be any concern, as on paper, it was conceived to power a much heavier system. It's likely going to work at approximately 50-60%, with every component at full load, after you've installed the X4 840, if you're still following that route.

I appreciate the suggestions, but I’ve got an idea on what I will be doing:
My first step will be to buy yet another external HDD, which I will use to back everything. My next step would then be to install the RAM, only 2x2gb as I am on a budget. Then I would proceed to install the OS, because I would like a fresh install with the new RAM so I don’t have accumulated baggage from the last RAM (in terms of information writing to the HDD). I’d rather not take the risk of added issues. I can see your concern in finding the issue, but I don’t believe it would matter much if I installed the 64 bit version first, as I don’t really feel like testing through every game once again. I believe it is indeed a hardware issue and I’m willing to spend money to find out; to be honest, I just don’t feel like doing the same tests without a significant hardware upgrade.

Do whatever you're comfortable with. I don't see any problem with that succession of events.

Not sure what you mean by “handle a precision tool.” I assume anyone without severe disabilities could handle this task, am I missing something? I will definitely look into VRM heat sinks though, as I could use all the performance upgrades I can get.

Even though the videos I pointed you towards illustrate the usage of a hacksaw to tackle the task, I was taken back to when I cut a rectangle out of the top of my case, to fit a radiator that otherwise wouldn't. I used one of those rotary tools many are so fond of and it did require a steady hand and some patience. That's probably why I employed that expression, but you're entirely correct - hacksaw or not, it shouldn't be difficult nor challenging.

That written, if you do get a heat sink on those VRM's, it should be yet another safeguard where motherboard and CPU longevity are concerned.

Awesome, I love DBZ; in fact I have DBZ tattoo of Goku and Vegeta standing side by side, it covers the whole top area of my arm.

Hey, that's a first for me! From what I recall, the series had a respectable philosophy, all things considered. That's a whole new topic though, let us not digress!

I will try to respond to the other posts as soon as I get more time. Thank you all for your time and patience.

Don't leave our man BigChickenJim hanging! I understand he very much enjoys being of service too; keep on allowing him the pleasure.

JD
 
Jul 12, 2013
144
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Howdy, folks!

I read what was posted in the meantime, while I was away, and decided to present what can hopefully be considered evidence towards supporting the theory that the motherboard will actually handle, at least, a Phenom II X4 840.

1. Firstly, we have this video, where a X4 9750 CPU is installed on a Dell Inspiron 546. The motherboard should approximately be the same as DeathBestowerX's - notice the absence of heat sinks on top of the VRM's. The X4 9750 is a AM2+ CPU with a TDP of 125 W. We're taken back to the argument, valid in my opinion, that the degradation, albeit rapid in potential, doesn't take place overnight and given that we don't have a sporadic update on how the system is coping (the poster of the video did however answer some questions at least a year after the modification, without pointing out any issue), we should, by default, be conservative and assume that those bare VRM's may not be able to handle the heat. Which takes us to the relevant piece of information:

2. The sixth post here, which I confirmed to be accurate, resorting to the information displayed here. I'm assuming the motherboard being used with that system is the same we've been considering, of which I don't have any reason to think otherwise, bearing also in mind the nomenclature of this refurbished system.

As stated, we want to be conservative if we are indeed trying to help out. That's why I understand where BigChickenJim is coming from and do appreciate his concerns, but in this case, given that it's do or die until the purchase of a new computer and because we have now established a suggestive base of evidence that begins to support the theory that the motherboard will at least handle a 95 W TDP, as also suggested by this CPU compatibility list we're already acquainted with, I'm comfortable advising the upgrade to a X4 840, tops. I would be further assured by the installation of decent fans where the case allows to secure good airflow and by a side-port modification to install an extra intake fan, if possible (there's also the educational value of this proposed task to consider, which from what I gather, will interest DeathBestowerX!). Otherwise, you should be fine, as long as you closely monitor the temperatures and inspect the heat being exhausted by the rear fan (a rough indication of how warm it is, inside the case).

JD


1. That is hilarious; I actually found this exact video when I first started thinking of upgrading my PC. I agree though, no present updates are on that page, so I know there is the possibility that it could have taken a turn for the worse.


2. Okay I've been thinking; if Dell is offering these systems, perhaps I should do further research in hopes of finding evidence that I can have a 945 instead. I am totally willing to use tools to mod this machine and considering that I am going to try to obtain heat sinks also, I might as well try for the 945. I appreciate yours and BigChickenJim's concerns, but I want power haha.


BigChickenJim: I am trying to follow these down, so you are next on the post list
 
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