Massive nVidia nForce DDR chipset preview

[MustPost]

What happended to the chipset Micron was making for Socket A proccessers.
I think it was called Samuri or something. It was going to have a large L3 chach on the motherboard. Im not sure if they were ever planning on releasing it, but is it still being developed

 

[MichaelD]

This is one of the best threads I've read in awhile. As it's been said, "finally, some GOOD hardware news!" I'll second that one.

Unfortunately, I also have to second "this is gonna be one EXPENSIVE board." Heck yeah. First of it's kind, with all these features, at these speeds/bandwith, etc. I'd say close to $200 off the bat, dropping to $160-ish after 3-4 months. Heck, I paid $150 for my KT7-Raid back in January! I had posted some queries about DDR systems a couple of weeks ago.....I'm glad I didn't go ahead and start on a "regular" DDR system already!

Oh boy! Fall timeframe....this chipset, Athlon 4, GF3 (it'll be $250 by then because the Ultra will be out..prolly!) and 512mb of PC2100. Droool..............

 

[joohang]

I hope it's stable.

This is very very very likely my next motherboard. If I have the money at the time, I will probably be one of the first in town to buy one.

http://www4.tomshardware.com/mainboard/01q2/010604/nforce-02.html
Why is the last PCI slot backwards?

 

[MichaelD]

Hey, it IS backwards!!! WUWT? (What's Up With That?)

 

[Adul]

The backwards PCI card is like an audio modem riser card. forgot what they called it.

 

[Midnight Rambler]

<< Oh, and another thing. It's stated that the southbridge (communications/multimedia controller) has a built in LAN and Modem controller. Does that mean that the boards will come with headers or something for LAN and Modems connections? I'm new to this whole integrated scene as I have never bought an integrated motherboard before.

I ask, b/c I would gladly get rid of my PCI NIC and Winmodem for a built in version to free up PCI slots. >>

I imagine this is the equivalent of the CNR's (Communications and Network Riser) found on many current mobos. You'll wanna keep the old modem and NIC if so ...

 

[Digobick]

<< The backwards PCI card is like an audio modem riser card. forgot what they called it. >>

It's an AMR slot.

 

[Rand]

Very interesting announcement, I've only read Tom's piece on the chipset thus far but I'll likely look into a few other articles on it later.

The integrated graphics even assuming a 64bit data path could significantly boost performance above the current integrated video in chipsets. I'm of the opinion that NVidia is overestimating the performance available from it however as I don't believe that even with a 128bit data path along with PC2100 DDR will enable the integarted graphics to match up to a regular MX. Even then with a theoretical 4.2GB/s of memory bandwidth on a128bit data path, the cpu will take half of that at most. And another 1/4 to 1/2 could be potentially be taken by other components...hence I wouldnt be surprised if the integrated graphics even with a 128 bit data path won't be significantly better then an MX200... likely somewhere between it and the MX400 in a &quot;best case&quot; scenario. Available memory to the MX core will depend significantly upon the other devices that are requesting bandwidth. Assuming a 64bit data path then the integegrated graphics should clearly out perfrom currently available integrated options but I sincerely doubt NVidia claim's of it matching up to an MX200 under such conditions.

The Hypertransport connection between North and South bridge should ensure plenty of bandwidth there under most circumstances, which is a definite advantage. Especially with it's integrated sound that seems surprisingly powerful. Overall the integrated sound should be a definite boost over the current low end in sound chips available, and I could see it being of use even beyond the low end.
Clearly the chipset has many devices that should be more hungry for bandwidth then most chipsets will, which makes the hypertransport connection doubly useful. If all of the integrated options are enabled this chipset will need to be extremely efficient in it's distribution of bandwidth to avoid potential memory stalls and unnecessarily high latency. Thankfully their are some nice aspects to chipset that could potentially lower memory latency, and more efficiently distribute available bandwidth to devices based upon their sensitivity to latency.
It's very nice that the DIMM slots can be populated with any size memory module, and not necessarily to modules of the same size when utilizing both of the two 64-bit memory interfaces.

Assuming costs are decent this chipset could make for one hell of a platform for a low end system, and even potentially be a viable option even in the high-end. The fact that boards based on the chipset can be made using a 4layer PCB should help keep costs down... given the complexity of the chipset I was initially thinking that it may perhaps require a 6layer PCB as the AMD760 chipset does I believe.
I must admit I'm startled that NVidia has managed to implement a dual channel DDR interface at what should be decent prices, expecially in a chipset with it's complexity.
I'd be very interested in learning what the costs are on this chipset to the OEM.

The integrated sound as I mentioned seems quite impressive in specifications but snother large aspect that is still unknown is whether the audio will rely upon the processor to do the necessary calculations or whether it will be done onboard the audio chip itself.... basically whether it will be software or hardware based sound.

Of course if it isnt stable, relatively decently priced, and reliable then all of it's potential will mean nothing.
And I'm willing to bet the word &quot;efficiency&quot; will be a necessity for decent performance from this chipset.

 

[Novgrod]

Micron's mamba and samurai chipsets were canned due to lack of interest. The main selling point was its level 3 cache--Micron tried to peddle it all to various companies, but didn't have any takers. Maybe Nvidia took it under the table; who knows?

I'd provide a link, but that'd require effort.

 

[squirrelman]

Wow! I am really happy to see this board. I was kind of bored with chipsets after a ho hum KT266 i was looking forward to. I was all waiting to see the 760mp review this morning and was bummed to see nothing. Then i noticed this and I must say i dont think i am even going to bother with the 760MP anymore. I would speculate in Nvida stays on the same path that in 10 years we may be using Nvida CPUs and loving them. I just hope I can use a Raedon 2 with this board. It would be a shame if they used some Microsoftesque hocus pocus so this didnt make a great combo.

 

[tasslex]

I am not fishing for flames or anything, so please don't start on my Anti-AMD-ness, but I'm not a big AMD fan, and I am wondering what the chances are of there ever being an Intel platform nForce board?

 

[nam ng]

<< I'm of the opinion that NVidia is overestimating the performance available from it however as I don't believe that even with a 128bit data path along with PC2100 DDR will enable the integarted graphics to match up to a regular MX. >>


I believed the opposite of yours, crossbar design is about simultaneous proccessing, if you only do one thing at a time, then an MX would win out, but as with any OSs, or apps... there're many things happenning at the same time, and they don't all suck up the whole required bandwidth as traditional does sequentially even when they can't use all of it, IE... maximal bandwith is provided to all proccesses at the same time... It's about simultaneous proccessing using all the bandwidth available at all times

 

[Novgrod]

Here's what Tom says:

NVIDIA as buddied up with AMD to supply the best system platform ever made. If you ask NVIDIA why there ain't a Pentium III or Pentium 4 version of the chipset, they answer with a blatant &quot;we don't have an Intel front side bus license'. I doubt that NVIDIA is particularly unhappy with this situation. AMD is a much easier to handle partner than heavyweight Intel. However, nForce is now putting NVIDIA in a completely new and much more threatening league. Intel can only hope to come up with something competitive to nForce, because otherwise it will lose even more customers than it already has. nForce's twin-bank DDR/SDR SDRAM memory controller is also threatening Rambus. So far Rambus tried to impress us with dual channel Rambus solutions and their high memory bandwidth. Now NVIDIA proved that dual-channel is just as feasible with DDR-SDRAM and the 4.2 GB/s of nForce's memory bandwidth combined with the low-latency crossbar controller are now putting Rambus to shame. It's funny how everything worked against Intel. Microsoft helps NVIDIA to become a platform manufacturer and NVIDIA helps AMD to become the CPU supplier for the fastest PC-platform available. The only win for Intel was when it got the Xbox contract. Other than that Intel stands empty handed now.


If I may ask, why can one be anti-amd now that it's lost the stigma of via?

 

[joohang]

AT Article is up!!! (Mike's article)

http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1484

 

[NFS4]

<< AT Article is up!!! (Mike's article)

http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1484 >>


Sweet, I fell dead asleep

 

[joohang]

<<

<< AT Article is up!!! (Mike's article)

http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1484 >>


Sweet, I fell dead asleep >>


LOL

I wonder if nVIDIA will ever make CPUs? :Q

nVIDIUM 2.5 GHz

 

[MikeyP]

I can really see it coming. Give them a few more years, and I bet they will be another AMD in the cpu market. I think AMD could survive with NVIDIA in the cpu market, but it will hurt Intel more. Their market share will continue to erode, as will their average selling price. The last few years I have been waiting for NVIDIA to make a mistake, but they just continue to get better and better. Everything they touch seems to turn gold, I am beyond impressed. Hopefully the don't become too powerful though. We don't need another M$, but an upstart to take on NVIDIA!

 

[Eug]

Rand, thanks. I'm glad somebody answered part of my question about the integrated graphics solution.

So, while this board is exciting, I've always been a separates kind of guy, and the concept of integrated sound and video always makes me nervous in terms of compatibility issues etc.

It can be argued that the on board audio is excellent, but on the other hand it seems to me that at least initially it would be best suited for those who couldn't care less about audio anyway - ie. those who are happy with $15 sound cards or current integrated solutions. I suspect the mid end MIDI types etc. which this chipset's features are aimed for presumably, would stay clear of this this integrated solution for the time being, because none of the software would properly support it, and those who have significant sound bank libraries would be unable to use them by switching to this sound card. I also wonder about issues like signal to noise ratio, etc. But it's a good start since it will stimulate a whole generation of mid-end sound solutions for everybody and their dog, because I'm sure software support will follow.

What concerns me more is the integrated graphics solution. While slow Geforce 2 MX (using system RAM) performance is faster than any other integrated solution ever made, it still is suck by today's standards. For most tweakers on this forum, the addition of the integrated video is extra money spent for no good reason, because by the time Crush is out in numbers, the Geforce3 will be entrenched, and maybe the Radeon 2 or Kyro III will becoming available. It IS important for the low end system, and similarly, hopefully it will introduce the low end market to better features in terms of 3D.

But, for now, I still will reserve my judgement until pricing is available, costs are known, benches are done, and bugs are revealed. I also hope this will stimulate better solutions from the other companies in terms of chipsets, sound cards, video cards, etc.

 

[NFS4]

Hey, I just thought of something. The 2D on the integrated MX should be steller. You shouldn't have to worry about crappy R/F filters or whatever causes the GF's image quality to suffer in 2D.

 

[pidge]

I emailed nvidia to see if there will be a breakout box made available for the on board sound (seeing as how the Abit board pictures looked very low end for sound outputs) and they said there would be available. My PC audio wishes have come true!

 

[Eug]

<< Hey, I just thought of something. The 2D on the integrated MX should be steller. You shouldn't have to worry about crappy R/F filters or whatever causes the GF's image quality to suffer in 2D. >>

I hope so, but why should it be stellar? My guess is that it would depend on whomever is designing the motherboard. Mind you anything would probably be stellar considering the current state of Geforce2 MX boards out there right now.

The same applies to the audio side. The audio will only be as good as the motherboard design and motherboard components. I suspect for the sake of cost, many of the boards won't have all that great sound, but we shall see.

 

[ElFenix]

NFS4 - you made an earlier comment about the 10/100 on board, etc. i don't think the ports will be integrated into the I/O shield, rather you'd use the ACR slot (the backwards pci slot) to have a little card without much logic on it. also, i don't see why the 2d would be any better, its not like nvidia is making the path between the northbridge to the vga port, unless the specifically tell makers to put certain parts there. but they haven't done it yet with the geforce line, so i wouldn't expect it here.

 

[pidge]

The pictures from HardOCP had the board from Abit have the Network connections right over the USB connectors, just like a server board. I guess a modem would run through the AMR slot however I don't use a modem so that is not a problem for me. I can't wait to pick up one of these motherboards (proably gonna be picking up the board from Asus nForce mobo) and the breakout box for outputing the audio to my home receiver. Woohoo

 

[NFS4]

Hmmm, I didn't check out EVERY pic over on HardOCP earlier b/c I'm on 56k now I will check it out now to look for those ports

 

[jealouse]

i have 815 m/b with onboard VGA/onboard audio. and i like the fact that there will be a time for them to come in handy even though i use ati all-in-wonder and phillips acoustic edge.

for example, i needed quick cash a couple of month ago, so i sold
my geforcemx and sound blaster platinum and i was still able to use
my pc thanx to onboard vga/audio. i even played my few favorite games (in 640*480, of course =)

and sometimes, you want to get rid of your videocard immediately(possibly because you've come to hate your card, or to get as much money back as possible...we all know how quickly videocard resale value can drop...)
but you are not sure what to get instead...in that case onboard video can/will come in handy...

i guess my point is that... for me it was worth extra few dollars to get onboard video/audio m/b... when crush(or nforce?) hits the market, i sure as hell will get everything onboard that there is...