Massive security hole in CPU's incoming?Official Meltdown/Spectre Discussion Thread

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Nimrael

Junior Member
Jan 15, 2018
8
1
1
With this huge effort and performance loss I fail to see why client devices even need a patch besides getting people to upgrade.
In fact no client sysytem should be patched. Only server where guest accounts with the ability to run the programs are permitted are affected by the attcks.
 

Nimrael

Junior Member
Jan 15, 2018
8
1
1
The problem is that many programs bring their own built-in web browser (Steam, Stellaris Help, ...) for UI purposes. If they don't use proper site isolation or process isolation you might lose your account data or get hacked while using them. My personal opinion is that you should update.
If Your browser run the malicious app, it will need no spectre/meltdown attack - it will already have a full access to your memory pool. Spectre and meltdown attacks are the ways to sneak to the other user's memory spaces from the guest account.
 

IEC

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Jun 10, 2004
14,361
5,019
136
Sequential reads and low queue tests don't appear to be affected much for home users by the 80 series microcode update. Random 4K high queue is most impacted under CDM benchmarks for me:

i7-8700K on Z370 Taichi + 960 EVO 250GB, Windows patch installed, no UEFI/microcode update (UEFI 1.30):
Random Read 4KiB (Q= 32,T= 1) : 514.705 MB/s [ 125660.4 IOPS]
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 32,T= 1) : 687.330 MB/s [ 167805.2 IOPS]
Random Read 4KiB (Q= 1,T= 1) : 43.424 MB/s [ 10601.6 IOPS]
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 1,T= 1) : 156.527 MB/s [ 38214.6 IOPS]

i7-8700K on Z370 Taichi + 960 EVO 250GB, Windows patch installed, UEFI/microcode update installed (UEFI 1.40):
Random Read 4KiB (Q= 32,T= 1) : 305.985 MB/s [ 74703.4 IOPS] -40.6% IOPS
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 32,T= 1) : 413.083 MB/s [ 100850.3 IOPS] -39.9% IOPS
Random Read 4KiB (Q= 1,T= 1) : 43.245 MB/s [ 10557.9 IOPS] within MOE
Random Write 4KiB (Q= 1,T= 1) : 121.128 MB/s [ 29572.3 IOPS] -22.6% IOPS
 
Reactions: hnizdo

thecoolnessrune

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2005
9,673
580
126
VMware has pulled all patches that apply Intel's microcode updates, and recommends that users do not install them. If they have already been installed, you can't reverse the process, so they recommend disabling speculative execution entirely on every affected ESXi Host and rebooting every VM in that environment, then waiting until Intel releases more microcode updates, applying those, undoing your configuration change on your ESXi Host, and then rebooting every VM in your environment again. So everyone with VMware who's already applied patches is now looking at 2 guaranteed separate, and manually performed total VM outages as a reward for applying Intel's microcode updates.

It just keeps getting better! Fortunately we haven't patched anyone yet.
 
Reactions: IEC

Topweasel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2000
5,436
1,655
136
VMware has pulled all patches that apply Intel's microcode updates, and recommends that users do not install them. If they have already been installed, you can't reverse the process, so they recommend disabling speculative execution entirely on every affected ESXi Host and rebooting every VM in that environment, then waiting until Intel releases more microcode updates, applying those, undoing your configuration change on your ESXi Host, and then rebooting every VM in your environment again. So everyone with VMware who's already applied patches is now looking at 2 guaranteed separate, and manually performed total VM outages as a reward for applying Intel's microcode updates.

It just keeps getting better! Fortunately we haven't patched anyone yet.

Yeah not a big security issue here. Limited physical access. No client VM's. Pretty small so the only people with the technical knowledge to utilize something like this already has admin access to the servers in question. So waiting till the dust settles I doubt we will install Spectre or Meltdown patches till at least May.
 

imported_ats

Senior member
Mar 21, 2008
422
63
86
I assume that, especially on sites/apps with user generated or external content (Online Help Wikis, ads in Skype or other apps), malicious JavaScript code snippets could be embedded or slip through the checks.

AKA, any site with ads against a browser that doesn't have a locked down no script.
 

imported_ats

Senior member
Mar 21, 2008
422
63
86
In fact no client sysytem should be patched. Only server where guest accounts with the ability to run the programs are permitted are affected by the attcks.

Literally every client system that has an active web browser is at risk without patching.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,805
11,161
136
This is the perfect place to post that. That post should get its own thread + sticky in the CPU forum, actually.
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,575
126
This is the perfect place to post that. That post should get its own thread + sticky in the CPU forum, actually.
Well, it said my i5-3330 prebuilt ASUS system was not vulnerable to meltdown, but was vulnerable to spectre.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,805
11,161
136
Interesting. It said the same thing about my 1800x, which I expected (no microcode update for Spectre, yet).
 

teejee

Senior member
Jul 4, 2013
361
199
116
at risk from whom or what? who knows exactly how to exploit that weakness? are we talking about 2-3 individuals on the planet with twisted minds?

Hacker tools are often available shortly after exploits. Tons of people have competence to use these kind of tools.

But I don't think there are any publicly available for Meltdown and Spectre so far.
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,733
565
126
I think you could maybe make an argument against bothering with the patches for the spectre variants but ignoring meltdown seems like a really bad idea IMO. I'm sour about the whole thing as well but unless you're perhaps not connecting to the internet at all it doesn't seem worth the risk.

I can understand waiting until things settle down though, its a mess with the patches at the moment.
 

psolord

Platinum Member
Sep 16, 2009
2,015
1,225
136
One of these days, one of those utils posing as security checkers, will mess up some systems.

You want a CPU checker? If powershell is not very easy, use the one from ashampoo. Better use tools from companies that have a long presence.
 

goldstone77

Senior member
Dec 12, 2017
217
93
61
at risk from whom or what? who knows exactly how to exploit that weakness? are we talking about 2-3 individuals on the planet with twisted minds?
You think a couple people... They published how the exploit works in detail, so you must not be paying attention and just making random comments. How about all the countries/governments of the world putting their resources to exploit these vulnerabilities? Who is to say they are the first to discover these exploits? They are just the first to make them public! The nature of the attack leaves no log of the event, so no one would ever know it happened anyway! Who is to say that there are not ways to use this exploit that are not yet discovered, or they have been already implemented.
 

goldstone77

Senior member
Dec 12, 2017
217
93
61
How many of these programs that tell you how to check for vulnerability are Java based? That would be a convenient way of getting access they need to exploit these vulnerabilities.
 

bryanW1995

Lifer
May 22, 2007
11,144
32
91
Well if anyone is saying that Intel will be dead soon then sure. But, this is a big misstep and it will effect Intel greatly. The stock has taken a hit and will continue to do so as they lose out on market share. If the CEO does get investigated that too will effect the stock. If companies realize they are better off buying AMD for their next servers, they have allowed AMD into a market which Intel makes massive profits from.

Its not the end of Intel by any means, but its not good either. If Intel does not adapt to a competitive AMD while continuing to make missteps it will be the end of Intel in the future.

Intel has a lot of competition, no doubt about it, but companies like NV and Samsung are suffering from this, too. I like AMD a lot and prefer to buy their systems when things are roughly equal, but AMD only exists because it keeps intel from getting broken up as a "monopoly".
 

bryanW1995

Lifer
May 22, 2007
11,144
32
91
Blackberry ruled the roost, and consumer mindshare, until one product hit the market: the iphone. That is when Apple skyrocketed and Blackberry plummeted. intel's situation doesn't have to mirror these other companies' trajectory. A decline will always start somewhere, and this Meltdown affliction could be intel's 'iphone' where mindshare and confidence begins it's shift to the negative. Which as we've heard over and over pertaining to AMD, is what really matters.

It's a bit of a stretch to compare intel's cpu competition with blackberry's competition though, isn't it? Intel screwed up, or, at worst, got caught trying to inflate performance by a relatively small amount. They'll no doubt suffer a bit, but this isn't end, or even the beginning of the end. It's probably not even the end of the beginning for them. Blackberry, otoh, got trucked by Steve Freakin' Jobs.
 

coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
6,395
12,829
136
Huh.

Downloaded, went to install. Nothing popped up, then the installer deleted itself.

Is this clean?
It's most likely clean, but since it has additional functionality (can turn off protection for the vulnerabilities) some AV software is detecting it as malware. The way tests are performed might also matter. If you're using any other AV than Win Defender, it might have been deleted or quarantined at runtime.

Here's the Virus Total report for the GRC tool, note that yesterday it had 11 malware warnings, now down to 8. (and will likely go down further)
https://www.virustotal.com/#/file/f...c147b276f255309007d5f27d000a54b5372/detection

Here's the Ashampoo tool report
https://www.virustotal.com/#/file/b...4158fa5ad84e21b4c513d95102d20035973/detection
 
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