Matt Lauer Fired for Sex...

[J.Wilkins]

Not all wrongdoings are equal. But, if you are contending we should hold people accountable out of principle, then you also have to accept some small fish casualties going after the big fish. What I see are a growing number of dead small fish while the big fish continue to roam the seas.

Holding someone accountable might mean demanding that they make amends and provide an honest apology that the victim of the offence can accept. In the case of Franken, he did exactly that and the victim accepted it.

In other cases they are denying it which leaves it up to the person to decide if they believe they are guilty and of what. If the accusation is numerous counts of child molestation then an apology is not enough, the molester knows this so he will deny it and since the public then gets to decide whether the person is guilty or not it all comes down to the accusers and what they have to offer as evidence.

Everyone should be held accountable for exactly what they have done. In some cases that means that they should apologize, in other cases it means that they have to be fired or in the case of public officials, step down or voted out.

 

[Blackjack200]

Still under Obama's budget and Trump hasn't gotten any of the things he wanted to do done yet apart from lifting sanctions on Russia (and refusing to institute the sanctions that he signed into law while increasing trade with Russia).

The only thing that has changed is that the USA is now the biggest joke on earth.

Yeah, I suppose some people think its funny that diabetics are dying because they can't raise enough money on gofundme to buy insulin, and the American military remains as violent and aggressive as ever. Haha.

 

[soulcougher73]

That's a weird concern to have when it seems like all the high profile cases have involved organizations underreacted to allegations rather than overreacting. Lauer just signed a huge contract, he would certainly sue if NBC tried to fire him over specious allegations, why is your first concern that we might believe a woman FFS?

It's not about being concerned about believing a woman. It's about having proof your allegation is true when someones lively hood is at stake. Do you want me running around saying Blackjack200 sexually assaulted me 10 years ago with zero proof that every happened? And you get fired over it before an investigation that yields proof is done? I'm just saying i hope there is proof these things happened and not just someones word for it. As i just proved if you take someones word without proof youd be toast cause i accused you

 

[Blackjack200]

It's not about being concerned about believing a woman. It's about having proof your allegation is true when someones lively hood is at stake. Do you want me running around saying Blackjack200 sexually assaulted me 10 years ago with zero proof that every happened? And you get fired over it before an investigation that yields proof is done? I'm just saying i hope there is proof these things happened and not just someones word for it. As i just proved if you take someones word without proof youd be toast cause i accused you

If you did that I'd sue you and I'd sue my employer if they fired me. Why are you assuming that these allegations are not investigated? I think it's extremely unlikely that Lauer's firing was done without investigation. The allegations can be cross checked against records and corroborated by co-workers in very quick fashion. Lauer can also be given a chance to provide his side. This can all be done in one evening/night in the age of smart phones. Media organizations especially are built to react quickly to things.

 

[crashtech]

I wonder how many leaders of the past that we consider to be great could ever even achieve political office in today's climate. How many current aspirants with the potential to be great leaders will turn away, because who wants to be subjected to the kind of treatment doled out to public figures these days? Does anyone else notice a lack of talent in the current crop of would-be leaders? The assaulted women and wrongly accused men are not the only victims here. When all it takes is an accusation to bring someone down politically, eventually we all suffer. When the main qualification for being electable comes down to being able to survive a vetting process and having a thick hide, well, you get Trumps as your leaders.

 

[Humpy]

Who'd have thought that Donald Trump would usher us into a new era of empowering women in the fight against sexual harassment.

 

[soulcougher73]

If you did that I'd sue you and I'd sue my employer if they fired me. Why are you assuming that these allegations are not investigated? I think it's extremely unlikely that Lauer's firing was done without investigation. The allegations can be cross checked against records and corroborated by co-workers in very quick fashion. Lauer can also be given a chance to provide his side. This can all be done in one evening/night in the age of smart phones. Media organizations especially are built to react quickly to things.

Id just be interested in seeing the investigation details. Like how do you prove a claim like this without any physical evidence for example if it happened years ago. I just hope its not a case of she said/he said is all without some concrete proof. I'm just hoping they have that if they are going around firing people etc. And im sure you're right and they do have that. Id just like some details as to how they proved it

Inquiring minds want to know

 

[J.Wilkins]

I wonder how many leaders of the past that we consider to be great could ever even achieve political office in today's climate. How many current aspirants with the potential to be great leaders will turn away, because who wants to be subjected to the kind of treatment doled out to public figures these days? Does anyone else notice a lack of talent in the current crop of would-be leaders? The assaulted women and wrongly accused men are not the only victims here. When all it takes is an accusation to bring someone down politically, eventually we all suffer. When the main qualification for being electable comes down to being able to survive a vetting process and having a thick hide, well, you get Trumps as your leaders.

It takes more than "an accusation" and you know that.

 

[woolfe9998]

Id just be interested in seeing the investigation details. Like how do you prove a claim like this without any physical evidence for example if it happened years ago. I just hope its not a case of she said/he said is all without some concrete proof. I'm just hoping they have that if they are going around firing people etc. And im sure you're right and they do have that. Id just like some details as to how they proved it

Inquiring minds want to know

Since physical evidence is literally impossible in any case of sexual misconduct except in cases of rape where genetic material might be left behind, and since even that is impossible if the matter is not brought to law enforcement immediately, what would be your definition of "solid concrete proof?" Give us an example of something which is not physical evidence but to you would be sufficient.

 

[Blackjack200]

I wonder how many leaders of the past that we consider to be great could ever even achieve political office in today's climate. How many current aspirants with the potential to be great leaders will turn away, because who wants to be subjected to the kind of treatment doled out to public figures these days? Does anyone else notice a lack of talent in the current crop of would-be leaders? The assaulted women and wrongly accused men are not the only victims here. When all it takes is an accusation to bring someone down politically, eventually we all suffer. When the main qualification for being electable comes down to being able to survive a vetting process and having a thick hide, well, you get Trumps as your leaders.

Shut the fuck up.

Id just be interested in seeing the investigation details. Like how do you prove a claim like this without any physical evidence for example if it happened years ago. I just hope its not a case of she said/he said is all without some concrete proof. I'm just hoping they have that if they are going around firing people etc. And im sure you're right and they do have that. Id just like some details as to how they proved it

Inquiring minds want to know

Why are you assuming that there's no physical evidence? Given the speed of the investigation, I think it's very unlikely that there was no physical evidence. That evidence probably consisted of some combination of e-mail, text messages, smart phone recordings of things Lauer said, etc.

It could also consist of an admission on Matt's part.

Again, why are you assuming that no investigation took place? You have no evidence for that, and NBC's email to its employees strongly suggests that there was one.

 

[J.Wilkins]

Yeah, I suppose some people think its funny that diabetics are dying because they can't raise enough money on gofundme to buy insulin, and the American military remains as violent and aggressive as ever. Haha.

Well we can't fix your bad decisions for you, can we? It's a joke that you have a toddler in chief, but it's still what you voted for and you got exactly what you voted for.

 

[crashtech]

It takes more than "an accusation" and you know that.

I think in some cases that is all it takes, yes. I'm not saying that accusations shouldn't be taken seriously, my concern is more about the long view and what affect this stuff will have on those entering the political arena. I don't think it bodes well.

 

[crashtech]

Shut the fuck up.

Right after you go fuck yourself.

 

[J.Wilkins]

I think in some cases that is all it takes, yes. I'm not saying that accusations shouldn't be taken seriously, my concern is more about the long view and what affect this stuff will have on those entering the political arena. I don't think it bodes well.

Great, give me an example where that is all it took.

In most cases this has been dealt with internally for years or even decades until someone decided to go public, then they are forced to do something about it.

 

[Blackjack200]

Well we can't fix your bad decisions for you, can we? It's a joke that you have a toddler in chief, but it's still what you voted for and you got exactly what you voted for.

You look at people suffering and would rather blame them for their plight than empathize. Sad and monstrous.

 

[woolfe9998]

Well we can't fix your bad decisions for you, can we? It's a joke that you have a toddler in chief, but it's still what you voted for and you got exactly what you voted for.

I somehow doubt the poster you responded to voted for Trump. If you mean the nation as a whole, no, a nation doesn't make "bad decisions." People do. We can only make our own decisions at the ballot box, and we have absolutely zero control over the decisions of others.

 

[crashtech]

Great, give me an example where that is all it took.

In most cases this has been dealt with internally for years or even decades until someone decided to go public, then they are forced to do something about it.

No.

 

[fskimospy]

Right after you go fuck yourself.

I have to say the 'we need to avoid sanctioning sex offenders so that we can have better leadership' argument is a new one to me.

It is also kind of ironic that it's basically 'if you eliminate all the people who are sex offenders then you end up with Trump'! (who is himself a sex offender, which kind of renders that impossible)

 

[soulcougher73]

Since physical evidence is literally impossible in any case of sexual misconduct except in cases of rape where genetic material might be left behind, and since even that is impossible if the matter is not brought to law enforcement immediately, what would be your definition of "solid concrete proof?" Give us an example of something which is not physical evidence but to you would be sufficient.

I cant. Which is why id be leery about all these sexual accusations coming about. Could it just be vindictive women trying to get ahead or gain something since its apparently such an easy thing to accuse someone without being able to prove it? I'm not even saying they are not true or not. But if you cant prove it how do you side with one side over another?

Its not like we dont have mounds of evidence of false rape accusations against men. Its an easy way to ruin someones life.

 

[crashtech]

I have to say the 'we need to avoid sanctioning sex offenders so that we can have better leadership' argument is a new one to me.

It is also kind of ironic that it's basically 'if you eliminate all the people who are sex offenders then you end up with Trump'! (who is himself a sex offender, which kind of renders that impossible)

I'm sorry you want to read that into my post. I'm trying to not to miss the forest for the trees. Ah, well, I've said what I wanted to say. Interpret it as you will, I'm outta here.

 

[soulcougher73]

Shut the fuck up.



Why are you assuming that there's no physical evidence? Given the speed of the investigation, I think it's very unlikely that there was no physical evidence. That evidence probably consisted of some combination of e-mail, text messages, smart phone recordings of things Lauer said, etc.

It could also consist of an admission on Matt's part.

Again, why are you assuming that no investigation took place? You have no evidence for that, and NBC's email to its employees strongly suggests that there was one.

I never said no investigation took place. I just said i sure hope one was done. You may well be right. Obviously we don't know. Maybe we should just close this thread since there is nothing to discuss now.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Holding someone accountable might mean demanding that they make amends and provide an honest apology that the victim of the offence can accept. In the case of Franken, he did exactly that and the victim accepted it.

In other cases they are denying it which leaves it up to the person to decide if they believe they are guilty and of what. If the accusation is numerous counts of child molestation then an apology is not enough, the molester knows this so he will deny it and since the public then gets to decide whether the person is guilty or not it all comes down to the accusers and what they have to offer as evidence.

Everyone should be held accountable for exactly what they have done. In some cases that means that they should apologize, in other cases it means that they have to be fired or in the case of public officials, step down or voted out.

This sounds like a very Judeo Christian framework of ethics and morality

 

[J.Wilkins]

I somehow doubt the poster you responded to voted for Trump. If you mean the nation as a whole, no, a nation doesn't make "bad decisions." People do. We can only make our own decisions at the ballot box, and we have absolutely zero control over the decisions of others.

You means you as a nation, you have a representative democracy and it's the will of the people of your nation that he should be president.

A nation where policy is established through votes for a candidate that has made his intentions clear can most certainly be held responsible for what they chose.

I am not holding YOU or HIM personally responsible, I'm holding the nation responsible and since you ARE a representative democratic nation I can certainly do that.

You can do the same towards the UK over Brexit and May if you wish, I'll take that and I'll take that without protest. I'm not personally responsible but the people of the UK which includes me are.

 

[Starbuck1975]

What's worse? Voting for someone in spite of it or when you simply don't know about it?

I think the worst is condemning one while rationalizing the other

 

[woolfe9998]

Shut the fuck up.



Why are you assuming that there's no physical evidence? Given the speed of the investigation, I think it's very unlikely that there was no physical evidence. That evidence probably consisted of some combination of e-mail, text messages, smart phone recordings of things Lauer said, etc.

It could also consist of an admission on Matt's part.

Again, why are you assuming that no investigation took place? You have no evidence for that, and NBC's email to its employees strongly suggests that there was one.

Unless this was rape with DNA material left behind, what sort of physical evidence would you imagine there being? The vast majority of sexual misconduct cases involve either verbal harassment or groping, neither of which leave behind physical evidence. Even with a rape, the evidence disappears if not brought to law enforcement within a day at most.

There are myriad ways to evaluate the credibility of accusations and compare them to the credibility of the denials, assuming there is a denial. This obsession so many of us have over physical evidence I think stems from people watching too much television.