Maybe coronavirus will finally make us get serious about illegal immigration

[SMOGZINN]

Perhaps once the left sees illegal immigrants as the potential carriers of pestilence into their cities instead of ripe targets of wage exploitation we'll see a turn on views on this? Will the nativist right continue to deny reality and fight against any increase of legal immigration quotas and simply hope for the best and hope that illegals get tired of making the trip? Hard to enjoy that produce picked from the fields by the illegals you happily overlook, or risk your kids' health to the Guatemalan nanny you pay under the table. Maybe just maybe we can admit there's a point to demanding immigration by via legal channels, insisting all immigrants are vetted for health, ideology, and other concerns, mandating those already here to report to be screened and pay heavy monetary fines, and deporting the rest who don't comply? Nah that's too mean, we can't expect them to obey the laws or anything (talking about both the illegal immigrants and their enablers who excuse away their acts).

Right! Why haven't we done something about all the Irish! Or was it he Italians? Perhaps the Germans are ruining our way of life? No, it must be the Mexicans you are talking about.
Who ever, Not only are they taking all our jobs, now they are spreading the plague!

 

[thraashman]

This is a pretty good microcosm of how the brains of leftwing individuals vs rightwing individuals work.
The left sees a crisis that can affect health and views it as a spring board to fight for an improvement to a system that helps everyone.
The right sees a crisis that can ... who cares what it affect, time to use this to promote my racism!

 

[glenn1]

What's the average salary for slaves?

Or did you miss the part that they were using prison slaves to do the work?

And they were still losing. And if you think it's just "produce", wait until that repair job on your roof is 2000.00 higher. Or you have to pay an extra 30k for that new home. Or landscaping bill triples and hotel fares quadruple.

You'll get a clue... Eventually.

I'm not the one justifying not enforcing immigration laws and keeping legal immigration restrained just so you can pay less for your roof or landscaping work.

 

[UNCjigga]

I'm not the one justifying not enforcing immigration laws and keeping legal immigration restrained just so you can pay less for your roof or landscaping work.

We get it—you’re just bothsides-ing the immigration issue. “The left elites want status quo illegal immigration to drive low wages” while “the nativist right thinks all immigration is bad”.

But, last time I checked, when Democrats tried to pass the DREAM Act (which would actually make enforcement against those not covered much easier) Republicans filibustered it. Then when Republicans took over Congress, they promised *they* would fix immigration but when Democrats joined in, they killed their own bill (remember Marco Fucking Rubio’s “I was for it before I was against it”??)

So there is only one side to blame for the status quo, and that is the post-Reagan, post-Bush, Tea Party Trumpist GOP. Vote them out if you want to see legal immigration expanded and better enforcement of our immigration laws.

 

[interchange]

You notice I said some people???????? Why? Because I don`t think you are racist at all!!
But with that said I do think perhaps you used a poor choice of words, that is why I pointed out that some people....
Have a good night!!

Firstly, my response is just to the idea you brought up and not to you specifically. I don't see anything wrong with what you said even though I advocate looking more deeply.

To that end, I'm clear with the words I chose, although it's definitely stepping into an area that's less comfortable. If we see racism as a relative measure where there is some socially determined although a bit fuzzy threshold for where racism properly starts, then I agree I'm not at all racist. If we define it as overt acts and not covert acts, thoughts, feelings, or unconscious phenomena, then I agree I'm not at all racist. And I realize that I'm a biased observer, so if anyone else sees something I don't please let me know.

If instead, we see racism as including those other things and measured absolutely instead of relative to some societal standard, then unequivocally I know I have racism. I know further of specific instances which thoughts or feelings I think are wrong have come up and I felt too much anxiety to confront. So much that I have fear imagining sharing them. And these are things that I believe are basically normal and in line with everyone's experience. And I know that my pursuit of knowing myself better has both made me less racist and more aware of my racism. That's good and it's uncomfortable. Even knowing that it is true that what I am encountering is not just normal but universal, it isn't easy to talk about.

But here's the problem that I suffer from which was created in me as it has been created for all of us by the society we live in. My fear isn't warranted. How could I be bad for being the same as everyone else? Racism doesn't make people bad. It makes us people. Now, we have learned and I agree that racist acts and systemic racism emanating from unconscious biases are inherently bad for society. But being part of them doesn't make a person bad. I personally believe that good and bad aren't categories which are appropriate wholesale for people at all. And I also recognize that some people's function in society is such that it violates the rights of others so much that they should be removed from society temporarily or permanently. That doesn't invalidate my respect for them as people, but it doesn't also mean I think because there are no bad people we can't take action to stop people from doing bad things or punish them as a consequence.

So anyway, I think what would be best for society is for us to try and add more safety to talk about the racism that's out there which is not so bad as we could choose to collectively ignore. I think my racism is in that category, but I'd rather it not be ignored even if society would do nothing to keep me from that or even push back when I put it out there.

I don't see that the spreading of infectious diseases by illegal migrants is a significant issue compared to all the other problems caused by travel, including the spreading of disease from richer countries to poorer ones, which seems to have been a bigger problem both historically and right now.

There's also, when it comes to the US southern border, a very particular history of using 'disease concerns' as a means of harassing and stigmatising migrating workers. E.g. in past eras demanding Mexicans who crossed the border daily to work on the US side, to undergo de-lousing and inspection every single time.

I don't think it is a present significant issue either, though it is plausible to be different at some point in the future. Unlikely still to my judgment, but not so unlikely as to cast off an analyses of the possibility as a waste of time.

As to the latter, it's a real concern. And while I'm testing the waters here of engaging in a conversation about it, I still fear it enabling xenophobic stances. My observation since talking about it here, though, is that those who have shown that problem here have since engaged in a more moderated fashion with their comments. Still, I could be wrong. If I am, then at least I hope someone else also shares their sadness that consideration for something of real merit no matter how small has no place in the world.

 

[glenn1]

We get it—you’re just bothsides-ing the immigration issue. “The left elites want status quo illegal immigration to drive low wages” while “the nativist right thinks all immigration is bad”.

But, last time I checked, when Democrats tried to pass the DREAM Act (which would actually make enforcement against those not covered much easier) Republicans filibustered it. Then when Republicans took over Congress, they promised *they* would fix immigration but when Democrats joined in, they killed their own bill (remember Marco Fucking Rubio’s “I was for it before I was against it”??)

So there is only one side to blame for the status quo, and that is the post-Reagan, post-Bush, Tea Party Trumpist GOP. Vote them out if you want to see legal immigration expanded and better enforcement of our immigration laws.

The DREAM Act addresses those already here, perhaps at the moral hazard of creating more illegal entries since the incentive of potential future benefits is again strengthened. That doesn't mean I oppose it outright but as I said it does nothing to stem the ongoing/future flow. Yeah we need to figure out what to do with those already here but IMHO we should first address the situation which is causing the numbers to continuously increase since if we don't we'll just need ongoing patches like the DREAM Act in eternity. It also does basically zero to address the wage exploitation of illegals just so folks don't have to pay authorized worker rates and have their roof cost $2k more. I'm sure that slaveowners used to make the same argument about how emancipation would make cotton prices spike.

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

This is a pretty good microcosm of how the brains of leftwing individuals vs rightwing individuals work.
The left sees a crisis that can affect health and views it as a spring board to fight for an improvement to a system that helps everyone.
The right sees a crisis that can ... who cares what it affect, time to use this to promote my racism!

Or the left are back in fairy tale world where they can give free healthcare and college to any and everyone, including the millions ready to cross over once illegal border crossings are decriminalized.
The right on the other hand realize not everyone is as fortunate as we are and that they should not be allowed to just come over here willy nilly. We have no idea of any vaccinations, were they forced to join the cartel at a young age, etc..

I'm willing to help you set up a go fund me where you and other AT members can start up a fund so you can pay for others healthcare or college tuition. I have a feeling that the account wouldn't get two nickels together. Oh that's right you want everyone else to pay for it.

If you're so for "charity" then find a good charity and donate your money. Oh that's right you just want your college and healthcare covered for free.

I will decide when, to whom, and how much I donate my money to. I don't need the government deciding my every move for me.

 

[Muse]

Any thread starting with "Maybe..." is probably poison.

 

[Muse]

Really?

Maybe it will make you get serious about health care. Sick leave. So many other things that are far more beneficial for a strong society.

Immigration? Jesus Christ get the fuck out of your bubble.

Exactly my reaction... Now I'm unsubscribing.

 

[ivwshane]

I'm not scapegoating the illegal aliens but rather us the U.S. citizens for knowing about this for decades and not fixing the problem because we financially benefit from those being paid less for performing labor because it's done under conditions of duress. The illegal aliens are responding to the perverse incentives WE created and that we should fix. When the government has created a speed trap situation by making the speed limit artificially low as a revenue generation tactic I don't blame the drivers, I blame the government and want the citizens to demand the government changes it. Our immigration system is broken the same way and should be fixed the same way.

I’ll remind you that Democrats in the senate passed a bipartisan immigration reform bill that was killed in the republican house. How about you start holding the party, which you belong to or at least continue to vote for, accountable first before bitching about what other Americans should do?

And S744 addressed both current and future immigration issues including everything you supposedly care about.


Edit: wrong bill #

 

[JEDIYoda]

Or the left are back in fairy tale world where they can give free healthcare and college to any and everyone, including the millions ready to cross over once illegal border crossings are decriminalized.
The right on the other hand realize not everyone is as fortunate as we are and that they should not be allowed to just come over here willy nilly. We have no idea of any vaccinations, were they forced to join the cartel at a young age, etc..

I'm willing to help you set up a go fund me where you and other AT members can start up a fund so you can pay for others healthcare or college tuition. I have a feeling that the account wouldn't get two nickels together. Oh that's right you want everyone else to pay for it.

If you're so for "charity" then find a good charity and donate your money. Oh that's right you just want your college and healthcare covered for free.

I will decide when, to whom, and how much I donate my money to. I don't need the government deciding my every move for me.

More BS talking points of the Republican party that are not true in the least little bit!
It seems to me like you are living in a fairy tale world! You do realize that other countries that are not even close to being as well off as we are have free healthcare? I don`t recall anybody advocating giving students a free ride through college? Are you done blabbering??

 

[glenn1]

I’ll remind you that Democrats in the senate passed a bipartisan immigration reform bill that was killed in the republican house. How about you start holding the party, which you belong to or at least continue to vote for, accountable first before bitching about what other Americans should do?

Presuming you're speaking of the "Reuniting Families Act" bill there was ZERO increase in legal immigration slots which is a terminal problem. There's plenty I like in the bill including the rollover of unused visa slots and end to per-country caps on visa slots, some I'd support if changed (i.e. no Deferred Action for Parents of Americans without penalties which should be used to support those who immigrated legally), and some I think should be scrapped outright like rescinding INA Section 287(g). Like I said until you fix the hole in the bottom of the boat (not aligning legal immigration slots to demand) every other action is short-term and fleeting.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Presuming you're speaking of the "Reuniting Families Act" bill there was ZERO increase in legal immigration slots which is a terminal problem. There's plenty I like in the bill including the rollover of unused visa slots and end to per-country caps on visa slots, some I'd support if changed (i.e. no Deferred Action for Parents of Americans without penalties which should be used to support those who immigrated legally), and some I think should be scrapped outright like rescinding INA Section 287(g). Like I said until you fix the hole in the bottom of the boat (not aligning legal immigration slots to demand) every other action is short-term and fleeting.

*Yawn*

 

[MixMasterTang]

@glenn1 you seem to be all over the place in your arguments, why don't you go back and address your OP? Why would any rational person think during the Covid-19 Pandemic is a great time to address illegal immigration? Your thread title is "maybe coronavirus will finally make us get serious about illegal immigration" and many of your responses to people you state that you are all for increasing legal immigration. Do you think increasing legal immigration is going to help with the coronavirus? If so, how and if not what is the purpose of this thread then?

 

[ShookKnight]

Just a friendly reminder; there are more cases of the corona virus in the USA than South America.

 

[glenn1]

@glenn1 you seem to be all over the place in your arguments, why don't you go back and address your OP? Why would any rational person think during the Covid-19 Pandemic is a great time to address illegal immigration? Your thread title is "maybe coronavirus will finally make us get serious about illegal immigration" and many of your responses to people you state that you are all for increasing legal immigration. Do you think increasing legal immigration is going to help with the coronavirus? If so, how and if not what is the purpose of this thread then?

You can identify (and test for COVID-19 and other infectious diseases if needed!) immigrants coming in via legal channels, that's kind of the point. You can also track and better enforce any needed social distancing measures with legal immigrants even if they number an order of magnitude larger than a separate group of illegal immigrants where government officials are likely unaware of their existence. Besides the fact that it's incredibly immoral to use illegal immigrants as our shadow force of semi-slave labor so we can buy grapes for slightly cheaper instead of using workers with legal authorization to be in the country.

 

[ivwshane]

Presuming you're speaking of the "Reuniting Families Act" bill there was ZERO increase in legal immigration slots which is a terminal problem. There's plenty I like in the bill including the rollover of unused visa slots and end to per-country caps on visa slots, some I'd support if changed (i.e. no Deferred Action for Parents of Americans without penalties which should be used to support those who immigrated legally), and some I think should be scrapped outright like rescinding INA Section 287(g). Like I said until you fix the hole in the bottom of the boat (not aligning legal immigration slots to demand) every other action is short-term and fleeting.

Nope! I was referring to S.744 (I mistakenly said sb13) and it covered all aspects of immigration reform including streamlining the immigration process.

A Guide to S.744: Understanding the 2013 Senate Immigration Bill

This guide to provide policymakers, the media, and the public with an easy-to-understand guide to the main components of S. 744 and the purpose behind them.

www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org

The fact that you aren’t even aware of this bill should give you a good indication of the bubble you live in.

Border Security, Economic Opportunity, and Immigration Modernization Act of 2013 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The Senate Judiciary Committee held hearings on the bill in April 2013.[2] The bill was voted out of Committee on May 21, 2013 and was placed on the Senate calendar.[3] On June 27, 2013, the Senate passed the bill on 68-32 margin. The bill was not considered by United States House of Representatives and died in the 113th Congress.

 

[glenn1]

Nope! I was referring to S.744 (I mistakenly said sb13) and it covered all aspects of immigration reform including streamlining the immigration process.

A Guide to S.744: Understanding the 2013 Senate Immigration Bill

This guide to provide policymakers, the media, and the public with an easy-to-understand guide to the main components of S. 744 and the purpose behind them.

www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org

The fact that you aren’t even aware of this bill should give you a good indication of the bubble you live in.

Border Security, Economic Opportunity, and Immigration Modernization Act of 2013 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

You're dinging me for citing a bill that is actually active instead of one that died with the 113th Congress when we're now in the 116th? You do realize the current Congress would need to reintroduce the bill you're talking about first? Hell, why not bring up why some folks didn't vote for the Equal Rights Amendment either? Or for the Alien and Sedition Acts?

 

[ivwshane]

You're dinging me for citing a bill that is actually active instead of one that died with the 113th Congress when we're now in the 116th? You do realize the current Congress would need to reintroduce the bill you're talking about first? Hell, why not bring up why some folks didn't vote for the Equal Rights Amendment either? Or for the Alien and Sedition Acts?

Yes because we’ve had a solution for 7 years! Show me a single fucking post by you acknowledging that bill and any amount of complaining about your party with regards to that bill any time during those seven years. If you can’t then you are a fucking hypocrite and you should probably shut the fuck up until YOU can hold YOUR own party accountable.

 

[GoodRevrnd]

You're dinging me for citing a bill that is actually active instead of one that died with the 113th Congress when we're now in the 116th? You do realize the current Congress would need to reintroduce the bill you're talking about first? Hell, why not bring up why some folks didn't vote for the Equal Rights Amendment either? Or for the Alien and Sedition Acts?

So you're holding D's responsible because R's stonewalled a bill that addresses 90% of what you're looking for in an immigration bill? Makes perfect sense. Let's also not ignore that the democratic house sent a similar bill through under Trump which was also killed. Meanwhile the bill the R senate introduced in 2017 sought to reduce legal immigration by 50%.

 

[JSt0rm]

This is a pretty good microcosm of how the brains of leftwing individuals vs rightwing individuals work.
The left sees a crisis that can affect health and views it as a spring board to fight for an improvement to a system that helps everyone.
The right sees a crisis that can ... who cares what it affect, time to use this to promote my racism!

the racism stems from the larger fear centers in the conservative mind.

 

[interchange]

WRT undocumented immigrant labor I think the neglected intervention is a good migrant labor system which is cheap enough and easy enough for employers to provide incentive to use it instead of undocumented labor in violation of law.

Regarding entitlement programs/socialized healthcare, the reality is if we have people in our country who aren't contributing to the economy themselves, the rest of us are paying for them to live regardless, and we're doing it in a very inefficient and inhumane way -- e.g. acute medical care which ends up coming out of the taxpayer pocket either directly or indirectly through hospitals having to pay l offset their losses by income from insured patients; through jail and prison. Studies into housing first interventions generally show better outcomes and less cost or at least not worse than what is currently done. EMTALA makes it so no ED can refuse a patient who walks in regardless of circumstances or ability to pay until they do whatever is necessary to determine they do not have an emergency medical condition which virtually always includes basic labs and a doctor's exam. Those with insufficient access (including a lot of insured patients) tend to put off problems and neglect chronic problems to save money ending up with more disability and higher cost (to taxpayers) less effective healthcare provided when complications become acute. The reality is we have a robust safety net and universal healthcare. Just the worst versions of them in every way (quality, cost, and equity). If you want to get rid of EMTALA and stop criminalizing drug use and behaviors associated with homelessness, a lot of folks will suffer but at least it would be a choice we'd be being honest about, and yes that would mean more of us see more people we like to wish don't exist. And see them actively dying with no one to help them. If you don't want those things, why not actually implement the better versions of these social programs, save money, increase quality of life, and improve racial and socioeconomic inequities?

 

[Viper1j]

Or the left are back in fairy tale world where they can give free healthcare and college to any and everyone, including the millions ready to cross over once illegal border crossings are decriminalized.
The right on the other hand realize not everyone is as fortunate as we are and that they should not be allowed to just come over here willy nilly. We have no idea of any vaccinations, were they forced to join the cartel at a young age, etc..

I'm willing to help you set up a go fund me where you and other AT members can start up a fund so you can pay for others healthcare or college tuition. I have a feeling that the account wouldn't get two nickels together. Oh that's right you want everyone else to pay for it.

If you're so for "charity" then find a good charity and donate your money. Oh that's right you just want your college and healthcare covered for free.

I will decide when, to whom, and how much I donate my money to. I don't need the government deciding my every move for me.

Way back when, (in the long long ago) back when Moammar Qaddafi was an ally, the United States had the largest military base outside of the continental United States. located in Libya. How do I know this? One of my kid brothers was born there. It was called Wheelus AFB. Up until the time that he was captured for doing nothing, he took care of his people. When you turned 18 years old, you owed the military two years.

After your commitment was completed, you had a choice. You could either have a 100% free four year college education, or 40 acres of land to farm.

If you chose the education, you were given a free one bedroom apartment, with free utilities until you graduated.

If you chose the land, you were given a free tractor, AND a donkey.

By today's standards, Libya is considered a "Third World country".

Yet they can do things, that the United States hasn't been able to do in the last century.

What's wrong with THAT picture?

For info on Wheelus...

Wheelus Air Base - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[glenn1]

Yes because we’ve had a solution for 7 years! Show me a single fucking post by you acknowledging that bill and any amount of complaining about your party with regards to that bill any time during those seven years. If you can’t then you are a fucking hypocrite and you should probably shut the fuck up until YOU can hold YOUR own party accountable.

At best that’s a solution for the results of the actual underlying problem (what to do with those already here). Yeah it needs to be addressed also but it's still a secondary problem. If it makes things easier mentally switch immigration and the war on drugs. Fixing the underlying problem is changing the schedules so that weed and other low risk drugs are decriminalized, that's akin to raising the legal immigration quotas. You can leave leave criminalized the fentanyl and other truly deadly stuff and that's akin to not legalizing immigration in cases of sex trafficking, terrorists, etc. That fixes the actual underlying problem of people working around the legal system of immigration which is how we want them to get here. Which again involves raising the quotas, which neither the 2013 bill nor the one in the current Congress does.

The problem you're fixated upon (and so was the bill you cited) is the secondary effect of the actual problem. In the war on drugs that's "what do we do with all the folks in jail for smoking weed" and in illegal immigration it's what to do about those already here illegally. In both cases you "legalize them" by bringing them fully into civil society but only after you omake them pay appropriate restitution to fix those they hurt (the victims of drug trafficking in one case, those who waited and paid good money to immigrate via legal channels) and to reassert the rule of law. But until you fix the first order problem then trying to address the second order problem is both foolish and counterproductive, akin to bailing out a sinking boat but not fixing the hole that's causing it to sink.

 

[pmv]

You can identify (and test for COVID-19 and other infectious diseases if needed!) immigrants coming in via legal channels, that's kind of the point. You can also track and better enforce any needed social distancing measures with legal immigrants even if they number an order of magnitude larger than a separate group of illegal immigrants where government officials are likely unaware of their existence.

Though the US, and other countries, have not been testing for COVID19 for anyone coming in via legal channels (and most coming in that way are not immigrants, a large proportion are returning holiday makers). In fact most countries that aren't South Korea - most of all Trump's USA - seem to not be keen to test anyone at all.