Media Bias of BBC

[LeoDioxide]

Does it not strike you as unreal, the way the BBC biases heavily towards Lebanon and Hezbollah in its reports? Every other word coming from their coverage condemns Israel, be it for killing children, not withholding restraint, or aggrevating the conflict. The BBCs bias is easily seen through, however.

I ask you, where are the reporters stationed? Are they in Israel or Lebanon? Dare you insult the country and government (hezbollah) that shelters you in a time of war?


------------

A note on logical fallacies:

I see a lot of straw man arguements around here. The straw man is where I set up an overly simplistic view of your arguement, and knock it down without much logic.

Suppose you support Israel. "Go Israel."

"Israel is killing children, and they are scum/terrorists/evil/uncivilized. You are also scum/terrorist/evil/uncivilized for supporting them."

You see how I forgot to mention who, what, where, why, and how many? I have simplified the arguement and made you look ridiculous with no basis of my own.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Also we have the slippery slope. In the slippery slope, one thing inevitably leads to another.

"Israel has killed children in the past, and will keep targeting them until the war is over."

I have taken an event, and rationalized that one or more events -must- and -will- happen because of it. These events have not happened and are mere speculation invented to make the supporter of Israel look bad by association. Observe the straw man afterwards:

"You don't support targeting and killing children do you?"

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

Last, and most importantly, labels do nothing but sway the weak minded.

For more obvious fallacies, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacy


Now, in all seriousness, is it any surprise the media is biased in favor of the Lebanese people? The media walks around and sees only the terror Israel is wreaking. These Hezbollah are viewed as rebels, does it not surprise anyone that the US doesn't label them Insurgents or Terrorists?


---------------------------------
My apologies, I should have mentioned that it is the weakminded that decide the fate of this nation (and are thusly important), but that labels have no place in logical debate. Also, some news sources:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5245884.stm

Speaks mostly of what Israel strikes. Directs attention towards the aggressors for sympathy towards the victims.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5245116.stm

Anybody want a hero?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/5245644.stm

Lets send relief over the destruction Israel has wrought.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5124172.stm

We're scared of Israel!

Forgive the horrible synopsises, but it gets my point across. The attitude in these articles are subtle but articulate, identify with the victim.

 

[lozina]

Last, and most importantly, labels do nothing but sway the weak minded.

...

These Hezbollah are viewed as rebels, does it not surprise anyone that the US doesn't label them Insurgents or Terrorists?

that's funny! :laugh:

edit: but anyway, i wish you cited some of this bias you speak of. since when is it biased to report what's happening in the world?

 

[Trianon]

Originally posted by: lozina
that's funny! :laugh:

edit: but anyway, i wish you cited some of this bias you speak of. since when is it biased to report what's happening in the world?

careful, you might be anti-Semite I am certainly surprised by all new P&N posters with "Member" status and 100 posts to their name, all in last month or so, all working to offset world media bias towards the Labanon-Israel conflict AIPAC must be working hard these days.

 

[Todd33]

I see claims but no proof. Who has the bias, maybe the OP?

 

[LeoDioxide]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,205413,00.html

Wait, who is attacking who again? I thought there was a war on both sides.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/04/mideast.main/index.html

Because Lebanon can't, and Israel can!

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/03/unicef.lebanon/index.html

Won't somebody think of the children?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/31/mideast.france.reut/index.html

France thinks Israel is too powerful.


Need I go on, or can you draw your own conclusions?

 

[Trianon]

Originally posted by: LeoDioxide
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,205413,00.html

Wait, who is attacking who again? I thought there was a war on both sides.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/04/mideast.main/index.html

Because Lebanon can't, and Israel can!

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/03/unicef.lebanon/index.html

Won't somebody think of the children?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/31/mideast.france.reut/index.html

France thinks Israel is too powerful.


Need I go on, or can you draw your own conclusions?

These are not BBC reports, as far as I can see...

 

[LeoDioxide]

The bias extends to other stations, and I thought I'd give some more examples. Thank you for making me explain myself?

 

[jpeyton]

Geez, must be media bias :roll: It couldn't be the fact that Israel has killed 20 times more civilians during this campaign than Hezbollah.

Let's just face the facts; the US and Israel are numb to the amount of civilian blood they spill. The rest of the world isn't.

Who cares what your opinion is, the raw numbers speak for themselves.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: Trianon

Originally posted by: lozina
that's funny! :laugh:

edit: but anyway, i wish you cited some of this bias you speak of. since when is it biased to report what's happening in the world?

careful, you might be anti-Semite I am certainly surprised by all new P&N posters with "Member" status and 100 posts to their name, all in last month or so, all working to offset world media bias towards the Labanon-Israel conflict AIPAC must be working hard these days.

Not all people who support Israel are of "member" status, not that it makes a bit of a difference. Attack the point, not the person making it. Now where did I put my AIPAC memo...? :roll:

 

[Todd33]

The impact of more than 300 short-range missiles launched by Hezbollah this week has been felt well beyond the towns and olive groves of northern Israel.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5242566.stm


Damn bias! The fact remains that Israel is doing far more damage and causing far more civilian deaths - this is easy to report. It's a bit harder to report on Hezbollah, they don't allow filming, the rockets do little damage and kill relatively few. There are no Hezbollah tanks, no jets, just some guys in pajamas who launch low tech rockets which are never observed. So how do you spin the headlines to appease the bias folks like the OP? Seems hard to do.

 

[Trianon]

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: Trianon

Originally posted by: lozina
that's funny! :laugh:

edit: but anyway, i wish you cited some of this bias you speak of. since when is it biased to report what's happening in the world?

careful, you might be anti-Semite I am certainly surprised by all new P&N posters with "Member" status and 100 posts to their name, all in last month or so, all working to offset world media bias towards the Labanon-Israel conflict AIPAC must be working hard these days.

Not all people who support Israel are of "member" status, not that it makes a bit of a difference. Attack the point, not the person making it. Now where did I put my AIPAC memo...? :roll:

It was just an observation, reading posts from Irateleaf, SamurAchzar, etc... The OP doesn't need to be attacked, cause the media bias now is probably as bad as it would be towards Germany in 1939 when it was steamrolling thru Poland, I bet those guys probably thought: "Wow, what did we do that entire world is ganging up on us?" If you ask me, medea on this issue if pretty fair, not counting extremes, and objectively documents atrocities done by Israeli military to population of Lebanon.

I am even more surprized that he listed FOX News in there, which is known to promote "official policy" from Washington.

 

[MrPabulum]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Geez, must be media bias :roll: It couldn't be the fact that Israel has killed 20 times more civilians during this campaign than Hezbollah.

Let's just face the facts; the US and Israel are numb to the amount of civilian blood they spill. The rest of the world isn't.

Who cares what your opinion is, the raw numbers speak for themselves.

The US and Israel are numb? Last I checked, Hezbollah deliberately uses human shields: men, women and children. It is confirmed that they are firing off Katyusha rockets from neighborhoods, where civilians reside. They will not let these civilians leave. Furthermore, Hezbollah is deliberately firing these rockets into Israeli neighborhoods, with the aim of killing Israeli civilians, whether Jewish or Arab. Furthermore, the IDF's policy is to abort any mission which would result in death of civilians. Hence, we have heard reports of Israeli F-16s that abort missions to destroy a bridge used by Hezbollah to transport armaments when the pilots can see civilians crossing that bridge. They incur an additional risk by flying the mission a second time, so as to avoid civilian casualties.

And let me remind you of one of the significant differences between Israel and Hezbollah. If, G-d forbid, Israel was in its death rows, it would never, under any circumstances, use human shields. It would be unthinkable for any Western democracy to behave in such a manner. Hezbollah's actions are not desparate, but deliberate. They cannot militarily defeat the IDF, so instead look to win a propaganda war. Israel accidentally bombs a building either presently full of Hezbollah terrorists (or ones that relocate) and Lebanese civilians..bingo, bad press!

A democracy was attacked by a group of terrorists who claim to seek the destruction of Israel. There is NO moral equivalency here.

 

[firewall]

Originally posted by: Trianon

careful, you might be anti-Semite I am certainly surprised by all new P&N posters with "Member" status and 100 posts to their name, all in last month or so, all working to offset world media bias towards the Labanon-Israel conflict AIPAC must be working hard these days.

QFT. I wonder if one of them is Muege under a new id. Perhaps the mods could match the IP addresses of these n0obs to that/those of Muege? :evil:

 

[IrateLeaf]

Originally posted by: Trianon

Originally posted by: ThePresence

Originally posted by: Trianon

Originally posted by: lozina
that's funny! :laugh:

edit: but anyway, i wish you cited some of this bias you speak of. since when is it biased to report what's happening in the world?

careful, you might be anti-Semite I am certainly surprised by all new P&N posters with "Member" status and 100 posts to their name, all in last month or so, all working to offset world media bias towards the Labanon-Israel conflict AIPAC must be working hard these days.

Not all people who support Israel are of "member" status, not that it makes a bit of a difference. Attack the point, not the person making it. Now where did I put my AIPAC memo...? :roll:

It was just an observation, reading posts from Irateleaf, SamurAchzar, etc... The OP doesn't need to be attacked, cause the media bias now is probably as bad as it would be towards Germany in 1939 when it was steamrolling thru Poland, I bet those guys probably thought: "Wow, what did we do that entire world is ganging up on us?" If you ask me, medea on this issue if pretty fair, not counting extremes, and objectively documents atrocities done by Israeli military to population of Lebanon.

I am even more surprized that he listed FOX News in there, which is known to promote "official policy" from Washington.

WoW!!! first of all israel doesn`t care about media bias.
Second of all comparing Israel to the germany of ww2 is total BS!!
Media bias is very unfair and biased..did i say that...rofl
israel has done not one autrocitie on purpose to the Lebanese population.
Tehy have been givenample warnings to leave well ahead of an Israeli attack on a Hezbollah position which just happenned to be in the midsr of women and children.
Then when Israel attack you people who support hezbollah start screaming autrocity or war crimes.
Gotta love people who are uninformed.

 

[Trianon]

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
WoW!!! first of all israel doesn`t care about media bias.
Second of all comparing Israel to the germany of ww2 is total BS!!
Media bias is very unfair and biased..did i say that...rofl
israel has done not one autrocitie on purpose to the Lebanese population.
Tehy have been givenample warnings to leave well ahead of an Israeli attack on a Hezbollah position which just happenned to be in the midsr of women and children.
Then when Israel attack you people who support hezbollah start screaming autrocity or war crimes.
Gotta love people who are uninformed.

OK, since that one didn't get thru, another analogy. If some known criminal commited a crime, and police cordoned entire city, where this guy lives, told everyone to get out in two hours, and then leveled the whole city, displacing it's population and killing fair number of civilians in progress, I would say it sure is an atrocity. And I am sure any general media would show the same amount of bias.

 

[LeoDioxide]

My IP: 24.241.118.188 Just in case you felt like going after it and/or compairing it.

War is war, Israel plays to win and they get (underserved is the object in question?) negative attention.

You speak raw numbers, yet I see none from you. I also would rather see percentages, as numbers and graphs can be misleading.

I don't need an analogy (no offense) to see whats going on, there exists a warfare of information, and currently Hezbollah is winning.

 

[RightIsWrong]

How is Israel being considered as a "good guy" for issuing warnings to get out of town.....AFTER the blew up just about every bridge, road and airport to do so?

Just an observation.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: Trianon

Originally posted by: lozina
that's funny! :laugh:

edit: but anyway, i wish you cited some of this bias you speak of. since when is it biased to report what's happening in the world?

careful, you might be anti-Semite I am certainly surprised by all new P&N posters with "Member" status and 100 posts to their name, all in last month or so, all working to offset world media bias towards the Labanon-Israel conflict AIPAC must be working hard these days.

Now that you mention it:

Israel backed by army of cyber-soldiers
From Yonit Farago in Jerusalem

WHILE Israel fights Hezbollah with tanks and aircraft, its supporters are campaigning on the internet.

Israel?s Government has thrown its weight behind efforts by supporters to counter what it believes to be negative bias and a tide of pro-Arab propaganda. The Foreign Ministry has ordered trainee diplomats to track websites and chatrooms so that networks of US and European groups with hundreds of thousands of Jewish activists can place supportive messages.

In the past week nearly 5,000 members of the World Union of Jewish Students (WUJS) have downloaded special ?megaphone? software that alerts them to anti-Israeli chatrooms or internet polls to enable them to post contrary viewpoints. A student team in Jerusalem combs the web in a host of different languages to flag the sites so that those who have signed up can influence an opinion survey or the course of a debate.

Jonny Cline, of the international student group, said that Jewish students and youth groups with their understanding of the web environment were ideally placed to present another side to the debate.

?We?re saying to these people that if Israel is being bashed, don?t ignore it, change it,? Mr Cline said. ?A poll like CNN?s takes just a few seconds to vote in, but if thousands take part the outcome will be changed. What?s vital is that the international face of the conflict is balanced.?

Doron Barkat, 29, in Jerusalem, spends long nights trawling the web to try to swing the debate Israel?s way. ?When I see internet polls for or against Israel I send out a mailing list to vote for Israel,? he said. ?It can be that after 15 minutes there will be 400 votes for Israel.

?It?s very satisfying. There are also forums where Lebanese and Israelis talk.?

Israel?s Foreign Ministry must avoid direct involvement with the campaign but is in contact with international Jewish and evangelical Christian groups, distributing internet information packs.

Amir Gissin, the Israeli Foreign Ministry?s public relations director, said: ?The internet?s become a leading tool for news, shaping the world view of millions. Our problem is the foreign media shows Lebanese suffering, but not Israeli. We?re bypassing that filter by distributing pictures showing how northern Israelis suffer from Katyusha rocket attacks.?

 

[Rainsford]

Facts are not biased. As lozina suggested, simply reporting world events is not a biased action by itself. The OP uses news articles about how Israeli attacks kill 26 people as "proof" of bias. How is that proof of bias? Didn't Israeli attacks kill 26 people? I see articles on BBC's homepage about attacks from terrorist organizations, does this prove an anti-terrorism bias?

Perhaps the OP should have spent less time looking up high school logic explanations and more time engaging that 3 pounds of poorly tuned junk between his ears.

 

[IrateLeaf]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: Trianon

Originally posted by: lozina
that's funny! :laugh:

edit: but anyway, i wish you cited some of this bias you speak of. since when is it biased to report what's happening in the world?

careful, you might be anti-Semite I am certainly surprised by all new P&N posters with "Member" status and 100 posts to their name, all in last month or so, all working to offset world media bias towards the Labanon-Israel conflict AIPAC must be working hard these days.

Now that you mention it:

Israel backed by army of cyber-soldiers
From Yonit Farago in Jerusalem

WHILE Israel fights Hezbollah with tanks and aircraft, its supporters are campaigning on the internet.

Israel?s Government has thrown its weight behind efforts by supporters to counter what it believes to be negative bias and a tide of pro-Arab propaganda. The Foreign Ministry has ordered trainee diplomats to track websites and chatrooms so that networks of US and European groups with hundreds of thousands of Jewish activists can place supportive messages.

In the past week nearly 5,000 members of the World Union of Jewish Students (WUJS) have downloaded special ?megaphone? software that alerts them to anti-Israeli chatrooms or internet polls to enable them to post contrary viewpoints. A student team in Jerusalem combs the web in a host of different languages to flag the sites so that those who have signed up can influence an opinion survey or the course of a debate.

Jonny Cline, of the international student group, said that Jewish students and youth groups with their understanding of the web environment were ideally placed to present another side to the debate.

?We?re saying to these people that if Israel is being bashed, don?t ignore it, change it,? Mr Cline said. ?A poll like CNN?s takes just a few seconds to vote in, but if thousands take part the outcome will be changed. What?s vital is that the international face of the conflict is balanced.?

Doron Barkat, 29, in Jerusalem, spends long nights trawling the web to try to swing the debate Israel?s way. ?When I see internet polls for or against Israel I send out a mailing list to vote for Israel,? he said. ?It can be that after 15 minutes there will be 400 votes for Israel.

?It?s very satisfying. There are also forums where Lebanese and Israelis talk.?

Israel?s Foreign Ministry must avoid direct involvement with the campaign but is in contact with international Jewish and evangelical Christian groups, distributing internet information packs.

Amir Gissin, the Israeli Foreign Ministry?s public relations director, said: ?The internet?s become a leading tool for news, shaping the world view of millions. Our problem is the foreign media shows Lebanese suffering, but not Israeli. We?re bypassing that filter by distributing pictures showing how northern Israelis suffer from Katyusha rocket attacks.?

Okay lets say its true...
On these boards it looks like the internet war is being won by arabs. Just look it all those posting with 100 posts or less who hate Israel. I would say if its true-- Go Israel!!

 

[IrateLeaf]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
Facts are not biased. As lozina suggested, simply reporting world events is not a biased action by itself. The OP uses news articles about how Israeli attacks kill 26 people as "proof" of bias. How is that proof of bias? Didn't Israeli attacks kill 26 people? I see articles on BBC's homepage about attacks from terrorist organizations, does this prove an anti-terrorism bias?

Perhaps the OP should have spent less time looking up high school logic explanations and more time engaging that 3 pounds of poorly tuned junk between his ears.

actually even supposed facts can be manipulated and misreprsented.
So what was your point??

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf

Originally posted by: Rainsford
Facts are not biased. As lozina suggested, simply reporting world events is not a biased action by itself. The OP uses news articles about how Israeli attacks kill 26 people as "proof" of bias. How is that proof of bias? Didn't Israeli attacks kill 26 people? I see articles on BBC's homepage about attacks from terrorist organizations, does this prove an anti-terrorism bias?

Perhaps the OP should have spent less time looking up high school logic explanations and more time engaging that 3 pounds of poorly tuned junk between his ears.

actually even supposed facts can be manipulated and misreprsented.
So what was your point??

Of course they can be, my point is that simply pointing out a story that reflects poorly on one side or another does not prove bias, all it proves is that the facts as presented are against one side, which is how the real world usually works. Now if you can show that those facts are being manipulated or misrepresented in order to skew the story, THAT would prove bias. But that seems to be missing here, the fact that facts CAN be manipulated doesn't prove that they ARE.

Perhaps you're looking at this the wrong way. If you're going to argue bias, you have to PROVE bias of some kind, you can't just make vague noises about misrepresentations and then not back it up. Seems basic to me, but what do I know?

Edit: In fact, the media is often biased in a related way...the "balance bias". As I suggested, facts usually don't treat all sides in a debate equally (the WMD in Iraq debate and the evolution debate are two obvious examples). Yet the media, in an attempt to look unbiased, frequently treats the issue as a he said she said argument without providing any factual support at all. If the Republicans said that the sky was purple and Democrats said it was blue, the headline would probably read "Dems, Reps clash on atmospheric hue".

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: MrPabulum

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Geez, must be media bias :roll: It couldn't be the fact that Israel has killed 20 times more civilians during this campaign than Hezbollah.

Let's just face the facts; the US and Israel are numb to the amount of civilian blood they spill. The rest of the world isn't.

Who cares what your opinion is, the raw numbers speak for themselves.

The US and Israel are numb? Last I checked, Hezbollah deliberately uses human shields: men, women and children. It is confirmed that they are firing off Katyusha rockets from neighborhoods, where civilians reside. They will not let these civilians leave. Furthermore, Hezbollah is deliberately firing these rockets into Israeli neighborhoods, with the aim of killing Israeli civilians, whether Jewish or Arab. Furthermore, the IDF's policy is to abort any mission which would result in death of civilians. Hence, we have heard reports of Israeli F-16s that abort missions to destroy a bridge used by Hezbollah to transport armaments when the pilots can see civilians crossing that bridge. They incur an additional risk by flying the mission a second time, so as to avoid civilian casualties.

And let me remind you of one of the significant differences between Israel and Hezbollah. If, G-d forbid, Israel was in its death rows, it would never, under any circumstances, use human shields. It would be unthinkable for any Western democracy to behave in such a manner. Hezbollah's actions are not desparate, but deliberate. They cannot militarily defeat the IDF, so instead look to win a propaganda war. Israel accidentally bombs a building either presently full of Hezbollah terrorists (or ones that relocate) and Lebanese civilians..bingo, bad press!

A democracy was attacked by a group of terrorists who claim to seek the destruction of Israel. There is NO moral equivalency here.

Yes, yes, of course, Israel can do no wrong, all its enemies are terrorists or anti-Semites, we've heard the rhetoric before.

Last time I checked, the only people not letting civilians leave were Israel. They bombed major bridges in Beirut today, leaving only one road out of the country that currently takes twice the travel time. Cars full of dead bodies litter the roads out of the country. They've bombed border crossings to prevent civilians from leaving Lebanon.

Hezbollah is a civilian militia. They are not an official government agency. Gee, lets think for a second with some rationality. Israel is bombing my countries civilian centers, should I A) Run out into the middle of the desert with my weapons and make an easy target or should I B) Fire my weapons in the areas where Israeli forces are concentrated (civilian centers). They are guerilla fighters, they fight in urban areas. The civilians that haven't left those areas are too poor to do so. All that BS about Hezbollah keeping them there is great propaganda, but I'd rather think that Hezbollah is concentrating their resources on survival and defense rather than corralling a few of their neighbors in house arrest.

Again, the key here is using logic. While I'm sure Israel would love all of Hezbollah and their weaponry to run out into the middle of the desert so they can drop one big bomb on them, its not going to happen.

 

[MrPabulum]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: MrPabulum

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Geez, must be media bias :roll: It couldn't be the fact that Israel has killed 20 times more civilians during this campaign than Hezbollah.

Let's just face the facts; the US and Israel are numb to the amount of civilian blood they spill. The rest of the world isn't.

Who cares what your opinion is, the raw numbers speak for themselves.

The US and Israel are numb? Last I checked, Hezbollah deliberately uses human shields: men, women and children. It is confirmed that they are firing off Katyusha rockets from neighborhoods, where civilians reside. They will not let these civilians leave. Furthermore, Hezbollah is deliberately firing these rockets into Israeli neighborhoods, with the aim of killing Israeli civilians, whether Jewish or Arab. Furthermore, the IDF's policy is to abort any mission which would result in death of civilians. Hence, we have heard reports of Israeli F-16s that abort missions to destroy a bridge used by Hezbollah to transport armaments when the pilots can see civilians crossing that bridge. They incur an additional risk by flying the mission a second time, so as to avoid civilian casualties.

And let me remind you of one of the significant differences between Israel and Hezbollah. If, G-d forbid, Israel was in its death rows, it would never, under any circumstances, use human shields. It would be unthinkable for any Western democracy to behave in such a manner. Hezbollah's actions are not desparate, but deliberate. They cannot militarily defeat the IDF, so instead look to win a propaganda war. Israel accidentally bombs a building either presently full of Hezbollah terrorists (or ones that relocate) and Lebanese civilians..bingo, bad press!

A democracy was attacked by a group of terrorists who claim to seek the destruction of Israel. There is NO moral equivalency here.

Yes, yes, of course, Israel can do no wrong, all its enemies are terrorists or anti-Semites, we've heard the rhetoric before.

Last time I checked, the only people not letting civilians leave were Israel. They bombed major bridges in Beirut today, leaving only one road out of the country that currently takes twice the travel time. Cars full of dead bodies litter the roads out of the country. They've bombed border crossings to prevent civilians from leaving Lebanon.

Hezbollah is a civilian militia. They are not an official government agency. Gee, lets think for a second with some rationality. Israel is bombing my countries civilian centers, should I A) Run out into the middle of the desert with my weapons and make an easy target or should I B) Fire my weapons in the areas where Israeli forces are concentrated (civilian centers). They are guerilla fighters, they fight in urban areas. The civilians that haven't left those areas are too poor to do so. All that BS about Hezbollah keeping them there is great propaganda, but I'd rather think that Hezbollah is concentrating their resources on survival and defense rather than corralling a few of their neighbors in house arrest.

Again, the key here is using logic. While I'm sure Israel would love all of Hezbollah and their weaponry to run out into the middle of the desert so they can drop one big bomb on them, its not going to happen.

1.) No one is arguing that Israel can do no wrong, or that its enemies are always terrorists or anti-semites. In the present case they are terrorists and probably don't like Jews. In fact, once upon a time, its enemies were Egyptian, Jordanian, Syrian, etc. soldiers. The Arab nations stopped playing that game when they realized they could not win it. In a clever move after the 1967 war, the political equation was changed from (Arab nations vs. tiny Israel) to (big Israel vs. tiny Palestinian people). But that topic should be left for another discussion. In any case, spare everyone the red herring.

2.) There are so many errors and fallacies here that its mindbending. The first fallacy is assuming that Israel simply began bombing neighborhoods full of civilians and that Hezbollah gallantly came out to defend the population. They did NOT. Hezbollah kidnapped Israeli soldiers. That was an act of war.

Second, Israel does not deliberately target civilians, no matter what Al-Jazeera says. Third, what in the hell does 'a civilian militia' mean? This is redundant. It's either a militia or it isn't. Now, a militia is a group of civilians trained as soldiers but not part of an official army. Except soldiers are NOT supposed to target civilians. Hezbollah targets Israeli civilians. You can try to call them guerrilas, but emm, no, because guerrilas are irregular soldiers who target regular soldiers, NOT civilians.

Moving on...it is NOT BS or propaganda that Hezbollah has kept civilians in their neighborhoods. Reports and pictures have been streaming in that Lebanese civilians are forced to remain in hostile zones. Next, and this is a hell of a whopper: since when were Israeli forces concentrated in Israeli civilian centers? Or did you mean Lebanese civilian centers? Eh, not important, since it doesn't make sense either way. Hezbollah is not targeting Israeli soldiers who happen to be in civilian centers (concentrated or not, and Israel does not concentrate 20,000 soldiers in Haifa). They are targeting Israeli civilians. Period.

What's your next point? Ah yes. My response: Israel destroys bridges that it believes are used by Hezbollah to transfer weapons that kill Israelis. These weapons are being supplied by Iran and Syria. The former has admitted to doing this. And how you came up with "Lebanese want to leave, but they're too poor" canard is a mystery.

It is remarkable how you paint Hezbollah to be waging some kind of defensive campaign against the Israelis. Israel would not be in Lebanon had Hezbollah not kidnapped and killed Israeli soldiers. Hezbollah does not consist of freedom fighters. If they cared for the Lebanese, they would have helped them leave fighting areas. They chose not to, and instead used them for propaganda purposes. The Israelis, however, made every effort to warn the Lebanese of potential hostilities, and made it clear that their anger and force was directed at Hezbollah.

Israel could have leveled Beirut to the ground, without incurring casualties on the ground It did not, because it goes against IDF doctrine. Instead, it takes a risk by engaging individual Hezbollah strongholds.

Lastly, I know you'd rather think that Hezbollah doesn't actually use human shields, but the sad fact remains: they do. How you'd like things to be is irrelevant.

 

[IrateLeaf]

Originally posted by: MrPabulum

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: MrPabulum

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Geez, must be media bias :roll: It couldn't be the fact that Israel has killed 20 times more civilians during this campaign than Hezbollah.

Let's just face the facts; the US and Israel are numb to the amount of civilian blood they spill. The rest of the world isn't.

Who cares what your opinion is, the raw numbers speak for themselves.

The US and Israel are numb? Last I checked, Hezbollah deliberately uses human shields: men, women and children. It is confirmed that they are firing off Katyusha rockets from neighborhoods, where civilians reside. They will not let these civilians leave. Furthermore, Hezbollah is deliberately firing these rockets into Israeli neighborhoods, with the aim of killing Israeli civilians, whether Jewish or Arab. Furthermore, the IDF's policy is to abort any mission which would result in death of civilians. Hence, we have heard reports of Israeli F-16s that abort missions to destroy a bridge used by Hezbollah to transport armaments when the pilots can see civilians crossing that bridge. They incur an additional risk by flying the mission a second time, so as to avoid civilian casualties.

And let me remind you of one of the significant differences between Israel and Hezbollah. If, G-d forbid, Israel was in its death rows, it would never, under any circumstances, use human shields. It would be unthinkable for any Western democracy to behave in such a manner. Hezbollah's actions are not desparate, but deliberate. They cannot militarily defeat the IDF, so instead look to win a propaganda war. Israel accidentally bombs a building either presently full of Hezbollah terrorists (or ones that relocate) and Lebanese civilians..bingo, bad press!

A democracy was attacked by a group of terrorists who claim to seek the destruction of Israel. There is NO moral equivalency here.

Yes, yes, of course, Israel can do no wrong, all its enemies are terrorists or anti-Semites, we've heard the rhetoric before.

Last time I checked, the only people not letting civilians leave were Israel. They bombed major bridges in Beirut today, leaving only one road out of the country that currently takes twice the travel time. Cars full of dead bodies litter the roads out of the country. They've bombed border crossings to prevent civilians from leaving Lebanon.

Hezbollah is a civilian militia. They are not an official government agency. Gee, lets think for a second with some rationality. Israel is bombing my countries civilian centers, should I A) Run out into the middle of the desert with my weapons and make an easy target or should I B) Fire my weapons in the areas where Israeli forces are concentrated (civilian centers). They are guerilla fighters, they fight in urban areas. The civilians that haven't left those areas are too poor to do so. All that BS about Hezbollah keeping them there is great propaganda, but I'd rather think that Hezbollah is concentrating their resources on survival and defense rather than corralling a few of their neighbors in house arrest.

Again, the key here is using logic. While I'm sure Israel would love all of Hezbollah and their weaponry to run out into the middle of the desert so they can drop one big bomb on them, its not going to happen.

1.) No one is arguing that Israel can do no wrong, or that its enemies are always terrorists or anti-semites. In the present case they are terrorists and probably don't like Jews. In fact, once upon a time, its enemies were Egyptian, Jordanian, Syrian, etc. soldiers. The Arab nations stopped playing that game when they realized they could not win it. In a clever move after the 1967 war, the political equation was changed from (Arab nations vs. tiny Israel) to (big Israel vs. tiny Palestinian people). But that topic should be left for another discussion. In any case, spare everyone the red herring.

2.) There are so many errors and fallacies here that its mindbending. The first fallacy is assuming that Israel simply began bombing neighborhoods full of civilians and that Hezbollah gallantly came out to defend the population. They did NOT. Hezbollah kidnapped Israeli soldiers. That was an act of war.

Second, Israel does not deliberately target civilians, no matter what Al-Jazeera says. Third, what in the hell does 'a civilian militia' mean? This is redundant. It's either a militia or it isn't. Now, a militia is a group of civilians trained as soldiers but not part of an official army. Except soldiers are NOT supposed to target civilians. Hezbollah targets Israeli civilians. You can try to call them guerrilas, but emm, no, because guerrilas are irregular soldiers who target regular soldiers, NOT civilians.

Moving on...it is NOT BS or propaganda that Hezbollah has kept civilians in their neighborhoods. Reports and pictures have been streaming in that Lebanese civilians are forced to remain in hostile zones. Next, and this is a hell of a whopper: since when were Israeli forces concentrated in Israeli civilian centers? Or did you mean Lebanese civilian centers? Eh, not important, since it doesn't make sense either way. Hezbollah is not targeting Israeli soldiers who happen to be in civilian centers (concentrated or not, and Israel does not concentrate 20,000 soldiers in Haifa). They are targeting Israeli civilians. Period.

What's your next point? Ah yes. My response: Israel destroys bridges that it believes are used by Hezbollah to transfer weapons that kill Israelis. These weapons are being supplied by Iran and Syria. The former has admitted to doing this. And how you came up with "Lebanese want to leave, but they're too poor" canard is a mystery.

It is remarkable how you paint Hezbollah to be waging some kind of defensive campaign against the Israelis. Israel would not be in Lebanon had Hezbollah not kidnapped and killed Israeli soldiers. Hezbollah does not consist of freedom fighters. If they cared for the Lebanese, they would have helped them leave fighting areas. They chose not to, and instead used them for propaganda purposes. The Israelis, however, made every effort to warn the Lebanese of potential hostilities, and made it clear that their anger and force was directed at Hezbollah.

Israel could have leveled Beirut to the ground, without incurring casualties on the ground It did not, because it goes against IDF doctrine. Instead, it takes a risk by engaging individual Hezbollah strongholds.

Lastly, I know you'd rather think that Hezbollah doesn't actually use human shields, but the sad fact remains: they do. How you'd like things to be is irrelevant.

I am truly at a loss for words!
Except for one-- Shalom!