Mendelev

[JF060392]

Mendelev created the periodic table yet where would we add elements that would be found on other planets? would it be included on our periodic table or would we start a new one?

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: JF060392
Mendelev created the periodic table yet where would we add elements that would be found on other planets? would it be included on our periodic table or would we start a new one?

Unless our understanding of physics and chemistry turns out to be WAY off-base, the periodic table describes all the elements that can exist. Any atom with X number of protons/neutrons in its core is an atom of <element of atomic number X>, regardless of where it is found.

 

[bobsmith1492]

Anything new would have to be after unununium or whatever the latest and greatest synthetic atom is...

 

[PsharkJF]

I heavily doubt any superheavy transuranic elements would be found in any appreciable quantities on another planet. Even if they're formed from something like a supernova, they decay too fast to really "exist". Even if a specific isotope lies in the theoretical "belt of stability", that pretty much means it decays in a few minutes rather than in miniscule fractions of a second. As an example, take Francium. It decays in less than an hour. We still don't know a lot about it because, due to its quick decay, it is so hard to find, and when found, hard to analyze quickly enough.

As to where to add the elements, we know this already. You need to know about electron orbital theory to understand what I'm about to say. 118 currently resides in the seventh period of group 8 because it has its 7p orbital completely filled, like the other elements in that group. 119 goes below Francium (It theoretically has one 8s electron, like Francium's lone 7s and Cesium's lone 6s), and 120 goes below Radium (It theoretically has two 8s electrons, like Radium's 7s pair and Barium's 6s pair).

Now, here's the wrinkle. Electron orbital theory predicts a 5g orbital appearing at element 121. This would be a new block on the table, like the f-block of Lanthanides and Actinides. Who knows what their properties would be (we have no frame of reference).

 

[PlasmaBomb]

In January 1999 a team of Russian and American physicists at the Joint Institute for Nuclear Research at Dubna, Russia, announced the creation of element 114. The physicists were able to produce just a single atom of the new element, an isotope containing 114 protons and 184 neutrons in its nucleus. Element 114 lasted an unprecedented 'stable' 30 seconds, long enough to enable its detection, before breaking down (decaying) into lighter elements. Until this discovery, 'superheavy' elements found had been unstable, with lifetimes measured in fractions of a second. For example, element 112, the last element discovered, has a life of just 280 milliseconds. The heavier the element, it seemed, the shorter its life.

So as PsharkJf said even 'stable' heavy elements aren't stable by normal standards

 

[alienal99]

I know that this is both improbable and impossible (which is why we have the highly technical forum?) but let's just say what if there is an atom with a 1/2 proton? This would seemingly mean that a proton is actually 2 protons, and a neutron must also be 2 neutrons....we would have to double all of the numbers on the table!!!! This is probably the stupidest post i have ever posted.

 

[makken]

as long as atoms we find are made up of protons, neutrons, and electrons - doesn't matter from what planet, they will have a place in the periodic table.

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: alienal99
I know that this is both improbable and impossible (which is why we have the highly technical forum?) but let's just say what if there is an atom with a 1/2 proton? This would seemingly mean that a proton is actually 2 protons, and a neutron must also be 2 neutrons....we would have to double all of the numbers on the table!!!! This is probably the stupidest post i have ever posted.

Our current understanding of particle physics would suggest something like this is not possible. Protons, neutrons, and electrons are made of different combinations of quarks and other elementary particles, and those three (and the associated antimatter versions) appear to be the only stable combinations for making what we know of as 'matter'.

But if string theory (or other more exotic explanations for what matter 'really' is) turn out to be right, there could be other types of matter that exist.

 

[interchange]

 

[icarus4586]

let's just say what if there is an atom with a 1/2 proton? This would seemingly mean that a proton is actually 2 protons, and a neutron must also be 2 neutrons....

Yeah, from what we know now, each hadron (protons and neutrons) is made of fermions (quarks) and bosons (which carry the strong nuclear force). From what I've read (and not understood too much of it) there's a whole different level of chemistry and physics at a very subatomic level. The periodic table is all we need for that level, but there's more to be seen and categorized at lower levels.

 

[silverpig]

Originally posted by: icarus4586

let's just say what if there is an atom with a 1/2 proton? This would seemingly mean that a proton is actually 2 protons, and a neutron must also be 2 neutrons....

Yeah, from what we know now, each hadron (protons and neutrons) is made of fermions (quarks) and bosons (which carry the strong nuclear force). From what I've read (and not understood too much of it) there's a whole different level of chemistry and physics at a very subatomic level. The periodic table is all we need for that level, but there's more to be seen and categorized at lower levels.

quarks are fermions, but so are protons and neutrons, and electrons for that matter
the bosons you are talking about are gluons, but photons are bosons as well (along with many types of pions, the W and Z, and possibly gravitons, if they exist)

fermion = spin 1/2 +/- n
boson = spin 0 +/- n
where n is an integer

hadron = "heavy particle" = made up of 3 quarks (protons, neutrons, lambda... etc)
meson = "medium particle" = made up of a quark/antiquark pair (pions, kaons... etc)
lepton = "light particle" = not made up of quarks (electrons, muons, tau, their neutrinos and their antiparticles)

 

[Terumo]

Originally posted by: JF060392
Mendelev created the periodic table yet where would we add elements that would be found on other planets? would it be included on our periodic table or would we start a new one?

We already have a new periodic table scheme to help with that problem (and with orphans)....

http://www.slate.com/id/2122919?nav=wp

It has a more organic placement, and one not locked in a linear format.

Terumo

 

[Alexstarfire]

Well, to me at least, it seems that finding elements, or matter, that we would deem "impossible" is almost 100% certain to be found, in my mind. I mean, there are things in the universe that we can't explain. Things like dark energy and dark matter. I have a very, very strong feeling that it's going to be something that no one expects. I mean, if we seriously know, can explain, everything there is to know about the universe, then the universe isn't that complicated. Chances are it's a lot more complicated than we are making it out to be.