Mens Barbershop fined for not cutting a womans hair

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Feb 6, 2007
16,432
1
81
When you let the government set all the rules you get Fascists in charge with absolute rule. This is like suspending someone because they have play dough tool.

Well who else is going to set / enforce the rules if not the government? The people? Should we encourage vigilante justice and 300 million different interpretations of the law? You have to have power vested in a central authority or the system doesn't work. The problem is when the laws being enforced don't make any sense. A barbershop full of barbers that don't know how to do women's hairstyles being fined for not fucking up a woman's hair is not a reasonable law. It reminds me of those debates we were having about bakers making cakes for gay weddings; if it's not a service that they offer to anyone, there should not be an expectation that it will be provided. If these barbers don't know how to do a <insert popular woman's hairstyle here>, they shouldn't be expected to provide one.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
There is nothing unisex about that haircut. It's a male haircut. 99% of the photos in your google search link are men.

If I were that barber I'd be cautious about giving her a male haircut without her written acknowledgement that yes, that this is what she wants.

What part of "becoming" do you fail to comprehend?
 

fleshconsumed

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2002
6,485
2,362
136
What part of "becoming" do you fail to comprehend?

Just because a few outliers decided to cross the socially established gender lines does not mean that it's becoming the norm. You can find men with dreads and ponytails too, but that doesn't mean it's the norm.

I'm not saying men shouldn't have shoulder length hair or that women shouldn't have the buzz cut should they so desire, but I can see how a male barber would be uncomfortable giving woman a "fade cut" for the fear of doing it wrong and having an upset customer afterwards.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Well who else is going to set / enforce the rules if not the government? The people? Should we encourage vigilante justice and 300 million different interpretations of the law? You have to have power vested in a central authority or the system doesn't work. The problem is when the laws being enforced don't make any sense. A barbershop full of barbers that don't know how to do women's hairstyles being fined for not fucking up a woman's hair is not a reasonable law. It reminds me of those debates we were having about bakers making cakes for gay weddings; if it's not a service that they offer to anyone, there should not be an expectation that it will be provided. If these barbers don't know how to do a <insert popular woman's hairstyle here>, they shouldn't be expected to provide one.

You assume all rules are the same. Its actually kinda funny how you don't realize the implication of your statement. Unless your argument is that nothing is a rule unless the government says it is.

So, when I go to Disney world, I don't get to cut the lines. It is Disney's rule. The government does not enforce this rule at all, yet we don't have vigilante justice with 300 million people understanding the rule differently. Perhaps, just perhaps you should give a little more nuance in your post.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
79
86
I don't see a problem with the fine, if she was refused for being woman. Men's Warehouse might only sell "men's" clothing, but they can't refuse to sell them to women based on gender.

The guy should have cut her hair. She would have hated it, and it would have been her own fault. Barbershops specialize in men's haircuts. There is a very good chance they don't have any training or understand of women's haircuts. The only problem I have is it is kind of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation for the barber. If he refuses, sexist fine. If he accepts it, he fucks it up and gets bad reviews / publicity.
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,413
616
126
The guy should have cut her hair. She would have hated it, and it would have been her own fault. Barbershops specialize in men's haircuts.

it was a woman barber who said no.

A female barber at Barbiere, Kerri Wonsettler, said: 'I'm a barber, that is what I specialize in.
'That's why I work here. I don't cut women's hair.'
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
79
86
it was a woman barber who said no.

That doesn't change the argument. This barber specializes in a very specific type of hair cutting (male hair styles); refusing to do something you are not trained in is kind of silly to be sued.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,145
10
81
I don't blame the barber shop actually. mens and womens hair are diffrent.

Though they should have done the cut and thanked her for the service. if she wants a shitty hair cut that's up to her.I do think fining them is overblown.
 

McLovin

Golden Member
Jul 8, 2007
1,911
58
91
What happened to the Right to Refuse service?

Better yet, the business is willing to send her somewhere else and pay for it, why does she need to have them be fined over a fucking haircut?

In 32 years of getting my haircut, I have never seen a women get her hair cut and even the female barbers who have cut my hair in the past have stated that they don't want to do women's hair (mostly because oh how picky some women can be).

She needs to move on with her life and take her faux outrage elsewhere.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
79
86
What happened to the Right to Refuse service?

Better yet, the business is willing to send her somewhere else and pay for it, why does she need to have them be fined over a fucking haircut?
This is the same argument people continue to make and it is stupid. You have the right to refuse service to anyone, unless your refusal is based on protected classes recognized by local, state, or federal government. Gender is one of those protected classes. You can't refuse to service someone in a public business because of their gender. Same as you can't refuse service based on their race. If this was a "white person's" barber shop and they refused a black person, most of you would be up in arms.


In 32 years of getting my haircut, I have never seen a women get her hair cut and even the female barbers who have cut my hair in the past have stated that they don't want to do women's hair (mostly because oh how picky some women can be).

She needs to move on with her life and take her faux outrage elsewhere.
I agree the woman is being unreasonable and a moron, but that doesn't mean there isn't gender discrimination happening.

And, for what it's worth, I wouldn't let any woman cut my hair anymore. Every time I've had women cut my hair, it turned out bad or unappealing to me in some way.
 

Bock

Senior member
Mar 28, 2013
319
0
0
Should have gone to black barber. She might have got a few shave & cut.
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
That doesn't change the argument. This barber specializes in a very specific type of hair cutting (male hair styles); refusing to do something you are not trained in is kind of silly to be sued.

Yeah. I went to a barber once (because it was the one that my dad had always gone to and I wanted a bit of nostalgia), and I asked for a simple haircut, but I used the attachment numbers. In other words, I said, "Can I get it #6 on top and #3 on the sides." He just kind of looked at me funny and said, "We don't use those here." I had to remember what the actual lengths were (18mm and 9mm).
 

McLovin

Golden Member
Jul 8, 2007
1,911
58
91
This is the same argument people continue to make and it is stupid. You have the right to refuse service to anyone, unless your refusal is based on protected classes recognized by local, state, or federal government. Gender is one of those protected classes. You can't refuse to service someone in a public business because of their gender. Same as you can't refuse service based on their race. If this was a "white person's" barber shop and they refused a black person, most of you would be up in arms.



I agree the woman is being unreasonable and a moron, but that doesn't mean there isn't gender discrimination happening.

And, for what it's worth, I wouldn't let any woman cut my hair anymore. Every time I've had women cut my hair, it turned out bad or unappealing to me in some way.

Legal Zoom said:
https://www.legalzoom.com/articles/...fuse-service-to-someone-because-of-appearance

You&#8217;ve probably seen these signs at restaurants: &#8220;We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.&#8221; Or, &#8220;No shirt, no shoes, no service.&#8221;

But what do these signs really mean? Can a business just refuse service to someone? Can they throw you out if you forgot your flip-flops on the beach? When is a refusal to serve someone justified and when is it discrimination that could lead to a lawsuit?

The issue made big headlines recently, when the state of Indiana passed its Religious Freedom Restoration Act. Gay rights activists immediately protested that the law was just a way to legalize discrimination against gays: any business owner could now refuse to serve them simply by citing a religious objection.

The law caused such a firestorm that the legislature hastily enacted an amendment clarifying that the law could not be used to discriminate on the basis of sexual preference. But with other states also considering religious freedom laws, the issue isn&#8217;t likely to go away anytime soon.

What Do the Anti-Discrimination Laws Say?

At the heart of the debate is a system of anti-discrimination laws enacted by federal, state and local governments. The entire United States is covered by the Federal Civil Rights Act of 1964, which prohibits discrimination by privately owned places of public accommodation on the basis of race, color, religion or national origin. Places of &#8220;public accommodation&#8221; include hotels, restaurants, theaters, banks, health clubs and stores. Nonprofit organizations such as churches are generally exempt from the law.

The right of public accommodation is also guaranteed to disabled citizens under the Americans with Disabilities Act, which prohibits discrimination by private businesses based on disability.

The federal law does not prohibit discrimination based on sexual orientation, so gays are not a protected group under the federal law. However, about 20 states, including New York and California, have enacted laws that prohibit discrimination in public accommodations based on sexual orientation. In California, you also can&#8217;t discriminate based on someone&#8217;s unconventional dress. In some states, like Arizona, there&#8217;s no state law banning discrimination against gays, but there are local laws in some cities that prohibit sexual orientation discrimination.

So, no matter where you live, you cannot deny service to someone because of his or her race, color, religion, national origin or disability. In some states and cities, you also cannot discriminate against people because of their sexual orientation. If there is no state, federal or local law prohibiting discrimination in public accommodations against a particular group of people, then you can legally refuse to serve that group of people.

What Does It Mean to Discriminate Against Someone?

If there&#8217;s an anti-discrimination law, does that mean that a business can never refuse service to a member of a group that is protected from discrimination?

The answer is that you can refuse to serve someone even if they&#8217;re in a protected group, but the refusal can&#8217;t be arbitrary and you can&#8217;t apply it to just one group of people.

To avoid being arbitrary, there must be a reason for refusing service and you must be consistent. There could be a dress code to maintain a sense of decorum, or fire code restrictions on how many people can be in your place of business at one time, or a policy related to the health and safety of your customers and employees. But you can&#8217;t just randomly refuse service to someone because you don&#8217;t like the way they look or dress.

Second, you must apply your policy to everyone. For example, you can&#8217;t turn away a black person who&#8217;s not wearing a tie and then let in a tieless white man. You also can&#8217;t have a policy that sounds like it applies to everyone but really just excludes one particular group of people. So, for example, a policy against wearing headscarves in a restaurant would probably be discriminatory against Muslims.

A couple of recent court cases illustrate the fine line between discrimination and a justifiable refusal of service. In each case, a Colorado baker was sued for violating discrimination laws.

In the first case, the baker refused service to a customer who wanted her to bake a cake with anti-gay Bible verses on it. The customer argued that he was discriminated against because of his religious beliefs. But the court ruled that this was not discrimination because the baker had a consistent policy of refusing to create cakes that used derogatory language or imagery.

In the second case, a baker refused to create a wedding cake for a same-sex couple, saying that it violated his religious beliefs. The court held the baker liable, saying that his reason was just a pretext for discriminating against gays.

Which brings us back to the original restaurant signs. &#8220;We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone&#8221; sounds vague and arbitrary. As we&#8217;ve seen, a business can&#8217;t just randomly refuse to serve someone.

&#8220;No shirt, no shoes, no service&#8221; on the other hand, is a clear dress code that could also relate to health and safety issues. You usually see the sign in beach towns where tourists of all kinds are apt to be walking around shirtless or shoeless. As long as the policy is applied to everyone equally, it&#8217;s not likely to violate any discrimination laws.

In the bolded part, could you not make the case that this is the exact same thing where the business is being consistent? I cannot imagine this is the first time they have ever dealt with an issue like this.

JKTechboy was pretty spot on with his post about being discriminatory is for a purpose and his examples are accurate, yet Curves is still in business. I can say with a degree of certainty that if I walked into a Salon, that I would be told that they wouldn't want to cut my hair or they'd laugh at me for spending the ridiculous amount of money they charge on such a simple cut.
If it is an issue for the woman in the OP is more of an economic issue, than she should take the opportunity to start a business specifically for that clientele (which I bet initially would be a very small niche).
 

TheGardener

Golden Member
Jul 19, 2014
1,945
33
56
I've never had my haircut at a high-end shop. So I'm only guessing that if they are good enough to cut men's hair for a lot money, they could do women's hair for a lot of money too. It's not like going to Joe the barber who has been giving buzz cuts for the last 30 years, and he has no idea how to cut women's hair.

I don't know Penn's laws, but it sounds like they got legal advice not to appeal the fine. So the law on public accommodations must be straight forward. Are there double standards? For sure. Maybe some activist wants to go to a female only shop and start trashing them for violation of civil rights. It's where we've gone as a society, and that's the law.

They want a brand of men only, but it is hard to get away with that. Maybe they can get around the law by creating a private club. There are many counties and even 3 states that call themselves dry for the purpose of purchasing a drink. But there are private clubs that one can join, and then you can buy your drink. So it's not like you can't have a drink in a dry community, if you want one.

But I think it is bad business to exclude more than 50% of your local population from paying for your service. Especially if shop calls itself high-end. Money is money.
 

who?

Platinum Member
Sep 1, 2012
2,327
42
91
Sport Clips tell women that if they want their hair done there it'll be a buzz cut.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
This is what I imagine the conversation went like. She wanted her sides faded but wanted long hair in the back and bangs in front.

Example: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-34191638
Sweet Lord, that leopard print side is great compared to that Hitler Youth side.

is the nurse late on her rounds with your meds?
Gotta wait for the orderly, she can't carry the bucket by herself.

What happened to the Right to Refuse service?

Better yet, the business is willing to send her somewhere else and pay for it, why does she need to have them be fined over a fucking haircut?

In 32 years of getting my haircut, I have never seen a women get her hair cut and even the female barbers who have cut my hair in the past have stated that they don't want to do women's hair (mostly because oh how picky some women can be).

She needs to move on with her life and take her faux outrage elsewhere.
While I agree that women can be extremely picky (I think my wife has gotten maybe five haircuts she liked over her whole life), cutting the woman's hair would have been better than giving her a reason to get her fifteen minutes at the barber's expense.
 

KK

Lifer
Jan 2, 2001
15,903
4
81
Blame this on stupid fucking intrusive government. Yeah you'll have the tards that say you can't discriminate just like the cake incident, but those people are the death of this country.
 

Blue_Max

Diamond Member
Jul 7, 2011
4,227
153
106
This isn't new, the whole kerfluffel over barber-shop-not-serving-women thing has been going on for a generation now.

Barber shops are typically cheaper because the cuts are simpler, done in 1/3 of the time, and the clients generally less fussy about it.

I can understand why a woman would be angry about the cheaper price, without understanding WHY it's cheaper.

The fact the client went nuts and started a media war over it only shows what kind of client she'd have been if she had been accepted into the chair in the first place. She was spoiling for a fight from the get-go.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,875
10,300
136
At least in Oklahoma the training and licenses are different for Barbers vs Hair Stylist. So it isn't completely just a case of they aren't used to doing women's hair, they were never trained to do women's hair.

I don't see the difference in this and women's only gyms, or women's only sections of gyms. Not to mention everywhere that cuts hair charges more for women's than men's, is that not discrimination? If you are allowed to charge differently based on sex alone, why can't you say that you just wont do one or the other?

That said, I don't think any barber I've ever used would flat out refuse to do a women's cut, but they would charge more and not do anything fancy.

As for cost, Super Cuts and Great Cuts are usually cheaper than barbers and will do women's hair.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
63,390
11,742
136
The barbershop where I get my hair cut is all women barbers...and they do NOT cut women's hair...except for those women who want men's hair styles. I live in a Navy town...and there's lots of women who wear their hair in what would normally be considered "men's cuts." :shrug:
Personally, I think they usually look like shit...but it's their hair...they can wear it however they want.
 

gotsmack

Diamond Member
Mar 4, 2001
5,768
0
71
If this was a "white person's" barber shop and they refused a black person, most of you would be up in arms.



I agree the woman is being unreasonable and a moron, but that doesn't mean there isn't gender discrimination happening.

And, for what it's worth, I wouldn't let any woman cut my hair anymore. Every time I've had women cut my hair, it turned out bad or unappealing to me in some way.

Do you know how I know you know nothing about black hair?

I'm Asian living in the mostly white midwest. I had to go to 4 different barbers before I found one that knew how to cut Asian hair. The rest just said they could cut it but never got the sides right. Asian hair is thicker and stands out more so you have to be more aggressive with trimming it and you have to do it in the right way or else it stick out and gives a rounded look on the sides instead of a straight look of a fresh haircut.

I would have been happy if they told me that they never cut Asian hair before instead of making me waste $20 on a bad cut.
 
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