Metro Exodus will likely be a DX12 title (speculation)

Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
6,841
1,536
136
This is speculation on my part, but I think it's a good guess. 4A Games today announced yesterday that Metro Exodus will be the first game to utilize Microsoft's new DXR (DirectX Raytracing), which builds on DX12, and NVidia's RTX technology which accelerates DXR and provides tools to developers to quickly deploy it into their games.

Twitter announcement

So from this evidence, I think we can safely conclude that Metro Exodus will use DXR12. Can't say I'm really surprised, as 4A Games has a history of aggressively (and skillfully) adopting technical standards. Can't wait to play this game on my Titan Vp
 
Reactions: Phynaz

Krteq

Senior member
May 22, 2015
993
672
136
DXR is not a requirement for RTX. So it seems more like they will use nV's prebaked blackboxed DLLs.

...4A Games has a history of aggressively (and skillfully) adopting technical standards...
Huh, can you name at least one example?
 

Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
6,841
1,536
136
DXR is not a requirement for RTX. So it seems more like they will use nV's prebaked blackboxed DLLs.

Not sure I understand this, but from what I've read, NVidia's RTX seems to be built hand in hand to work with Microsoft's new DXR (which is itself an extension of DX12) as far as Windows APIs are concerned at least. I'm sure other low level APIs like Vulkan will eventually support RTX as well. I don't believe that DX11.x will ever support it though, as Microsoft hasn't alluded to that. Also, a low level API might be the only way to really tap into feature as it seems to be an exceptionally compute intensive workload.

Huh, can you name at least one example?

That's pretty easy. Metro 2033 was one of the first games to leverage DirectX11 tessellation, and Metro Last Light dramatically expanded on its use. It used tessellation all over the environment, and on the characters and monsters themselves; even regular NPCs.
 
Reactions: Headfoot and Phynaz

Adawy

Member
Sep 9, 2017
79
24
81
Good news. Metro Last Light was one of the best looking games from the previous generation and certainly one of my all time favorites. Looking forward to it.
 
Reactions: Headfoot and Phynaz

Spjut

Senior member
Apr 9, 2011
928
149
106
I always expected it to support DX12. My fear is just whether using DX12 will be considered "worth it" compared to the DX11 path.
I'm not going to be surprised if the Raytracing feature ends up being the performance killer and unable to run on anything other than the 1080 Ti.
 
Last edited:
Reactions: Headfoot and Phynaz

Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
6,841
1,536
136
I always expected it to support DX12. My fear is just whether using DX12 will be considered "worth it" compared to the DX11 path.
I'm not going to be surprised if the Raytracing feature ends up being the performance killer and unable to run on anything other than the 1080 Ti.

If I had to guess, the raytracing feature will be too high of a performance hit on anything less than a Volta class GPU. That's because the Volta GPUs use the tensor cores, and somehow with neural training, they are able to dramatically accelerate the raytracing algorithms. If you have a GPU that doesn't have these tensor cores however, then it will have to be brute forced using the DirectCompute pathway.
 

Despoiler

Golden Member
Nov 10, 2007
1,966
770
136
If I had to guess, the raytracing feature will be too high of a performance hit on anything less than a Volta class GPU. That's because the Volta GPUs use the tensor cores, and somehow with neural training, they are able to dramatically accelerate the raytracing algorithms. If you have a GPU that doesn't have these tensor cores however, then it will have to be brute forced using the DirectCompute pathway.

I saw a Tweet today that the Nvidia raytracing demos @ GDC were being done on their DGX Desktop systems. So yah we are talking gear way, way outside of gaming grade. My understanding is the first RT gaming implementations are going to be very limited in scope. I think I saw 3 effects talked about that would have acceptable performance.
 

tamz_msc

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2017
3,865
3,729
136
Like all the advanced rendering features available in the previous Metro games, this will probably be an exclusive toggle as well.
 

Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
6,841
1,536
136
I saw a Tweet today that the Nvidia raytracing demos @ GDC were being done on their DGX Desktop systems. So yah we are talking gear way, way outside of gaming grade. My understanding is the first RT gaming implementations are going to be very limited in scope. I think I saw 3 effects talked about that would have acceptable performance.

I don't know about that. Looks like they are targeting ambient occlusion and global illumination with RTX. Oh well, this is definitely an exciting time in PC gaming again. Who'd have thought ray tracing would be utilized in games this early!

4A Games press release

 

Phynaz

Lifer
Mar 13, 2006
10,140
819
126
I saw a Tweet today that the Nvidia raytracing demos @ GDC were being done on their DGX Desktop systems. So yah we are talking gear way, way outside of gaming grade. My understanding is the first RT gaming implementations are going to be very limited in scope. I think I saw 3 effects talked about that would have acceptable performance.

Here's some further info, along with a video of the demo. https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018...just-how-great-real-time-raytracing-can-look/

Yes, run a $60K GPU, but dang, that's real-time. Unreal is still my favorite game engine.
 

Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
6,841
1,536
136
This new rendering feature for DX12 also requires shader model 6.x ...

Imagine that, the first game to potentially ship with shader model 6.x ...

So with shader model 6.x in play, do you think that will resolve the GPU efficiency issues we've been having with DX12 ports?

If SM6.x is used, that will make the game truly native DX12.
 

moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
10,637
3,095
136
If Nvidia was releasing the next Ti card soon and games were going to actually use this feature in a substantial way, then I'd be excited. I have a feeling that even a Titan V will lag out with ray tracing turned on. I think its going to be one of those things where you play a game at 120fps with ray tracing off, then you turn it on and the only difference is the lighting effects and the FPS gets cut in half or worse. That's my expectation. Either way I am dying for another Ti class card to come out. I love the panic that sets in the second they become available. I HAVE to buy it instantly and I HAVE to buy an EK block instantly and I HAVE a heart attack until I get it installed and water flowing through it. I can't wait. That's my drug. Screw the stupid ray tracing. Its a gimmick IMO.
 

lehtv

Elite Member
Dec 8, 2010
11,900
74
91
I don't know about that. Looks like they are targeting ambient occlusion and global illumination with RTX. Oh well, this is definitely an exciting time in PC gaming again. Who'd have thought ray tracing would be utilized in games this early!

4A Games press release

Witcher 3 from 2015 had better looking grass. Hopefully, the actual game will be much more advanced than the tech demo.
 

ThatBuzzkiller

Golden Member
Nov 14, 2014
1,120
260
136
So with shader model 6.x in play, do you think that will resolve the GPU efficiency issues we've been having with DX12 ports?

If SM6.x is used, that will make the game truly native DX12.

It's important to note that we don't forget to perform optimizations at the high level such as writing your shaders geared towards the API usage or optimizing the data layout first before we talk about doing low level optimizations such as going into the specifics of how intermediate bytecode format like DXIL shaders (SM6.x) interact with the native GPU ISA in this case. These low level optimizations cannot be matched without the high level optimizations as an example shown by Alex and Fiona for advanced Metal shader optimizations. I believe just stock DX12 can outperform DX11 when we consider newly exposed concepts at the high level such as D3D12 multi-engine and optimizing the barrier usage by removing redundant sync points in how resource transitions are handled ...

The only requirement for a game to have a "truly native" DX12 back end is to use the D3D12 runtime. The only thing unique I imagine you mean is the *implementation* behind each game which depends on the usage of the features unique to DX12 compared to DX11 ...

There does exist opportunity for faster running shader programs in using DXIL shaders (new HLSL bytecode format with the dxc compiler) since it better maps to modern GPU ISAs over DXBC shaders (old HLSL bytecode format with the fxc compiler) along with the newly exposed hardware/rendering features at the shader level such as wave ops, view instancing, access to barycentric coordinates along with the new raytracing specific HLSL built-ins ...

DX12 has a multi-pronged approach in succeeding to DX11 as a high performance gfx API as it continues to mature from the kernel (WDDM 2.x vs WDDM 1.x), API interface (ID3D11 vs ID3D12), display/adapter infrastructure (DXGI 2 vs DXGI 1.x), exclusive hardware/rendering features (Raytracing) to the new shader bytecode format (SM6.x vs SM5) and it continues to replace many more legacy components that I mentioned previously ... (it's this cohesive combination of improvements to the entire graphics environment that will lead DX12 to outpace DX11 as it's new features continue to get more adoption, DX12 maybe pretty even now with DX11 but high production value developers won't have any reasons not to use these new exclusive features in the new gfx API to advance their technology since Windows 7 won't receive anymore security updates beyond 2020 )
 
Reactions: Carfax83 and Krteq

TheELF

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2012
3,991
744
126
I believe just stock DX12 can outperform DX11 when we consider newly exposed concepts at the high level such as D3D12 multi-engine and optimizing the barrier usage by removing redundant sync points in how resource transitions are handled ...
Dx12 always outperforms dx11 as long as the CPU is weak enough,if you have fast cores and enough of them to run all game threads and the dx11 driver all separately then dx11 will always be faster.
 

ThatBuzzkiller

Golden Member
Nov 14, 2014
1,120
260
136
Dx12 always outperforms dx11 as long as the CPU is weak enough,if you have fast cores and enough of them to run all game threads and the dx11 driver all separately then dx11 will always be faster.

That doesn't have to be true, DX12 can saturate the GPU side better than DX11. It's just that there will always be varying fast path's differing between all of the IHV's drivers or hardware with DX12 ...

There's always performance boosts on the GPU side in DX12 just by trying to eliminate redundant barriers as produced by DX11 drivers ...
 
Reactions: Carfax83 and Krteq

TheELF

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2012
3,991
744
126
That doesn't have to be true, DX12 can saturate the GPU side better than DX11.
But that's only important if the GPU is difficult to saturate...
either because it's an overly difficult architecture to saturate with a single thread like GCN,or because as I said your cores are too weak to saturate the card.
 

sontin

Diamond Member
Sep 12, 2011
3,273
149
106
That doesn't have to be true, DX12 can saturate the GPU side better than DX11. It's just that there will always be varying fast path's differing between all of the IHV's drivers or hardware with DX12 ...

There's always performance boosts on the GPU side in DX12 just by trying to eliminate redundant barriers as produced by DX11 drivers ...

No, that is wrong. DX12 is only faster when developers put enough effort into it. Without it DX12 is slower in CPU and GPU limited scenarios.
DXR and DML (Direct Machine Learning) give them enough motivation to use DX12 in a better way. Otherwise DX12 is a dead end on the PC plattform.
 
Reactions: Muhammed

ThatBuzzkiller

Golden Member
Nov 14, 2014
1,120
260
136
But that's only important if the GPU is difficult to saturate...
either because it's an overly difficult architecture to saturate with a single thread like GCN,or because as I said your cores are too weak to saturate the card.

Not true, look at this presentation. On slide 32, pretty much all GPUs can benefit from lowering the cost of barriers ...

No, that is wrong. DX12 is only faster when developers put enough effort into it. Without it DX12 is slower in CPU and GPU limited scenarios.
DXR and DML (Direct Machine Learning) give them enough motivation to use DX12 in a better way. Otherwise DX12 is a dead end on the PC plattform.

If that's what you believe then you truly don't know much about DX12. DXR is just a small subset of DX12 and DML doesn't do anything to extend the API itself, it's just a library built on top DX12 if you didn't know better for your sake ...

I also never said anything about effort, that's just a strawman on your part and frankly your statement is trivial. If you aren't going to read my posts then would kindly not respond to my posts in the future ? Any discussion with you isn't productive to the topic ...
 
Reactions: Despoiler

richaron

Golden Member
Mar 27, 2012
1,357
329
136
I also never said anything about effort, that's just a strawman on your part and frankly your statement is trivial.
Developer's "effort" and expertise with low level APIs is absolutely important; It's definitely not a strawman argument.

Low level API's open vastly more options (and complications) compared to conventional channels, especially with respect to optimization, to claim the developer's "effort" is trivial is beyond blind.
 
Reactions: Muhammed

ThatBuzzkiller

Golden Member
Nov 14, 2014
1,120
260
136
Developer's "effort" and expertise with low level APIs is absolutely important; It's definitely not a strawman argument.

Low level API's open vastly more options (and complications) compared to conventional channels, especially with respect to optimization, to claim the developer's "effort" is trivial is beyond blind.

You have the same issue as he does by not reading other people's posts and you obviously don't understand what a "strawman" is, his argument is a textbook example of that since I make no mention of "effort" in my previous posts ...

Your reading comprehension is also entirely off too. I never meant that it's the developer's effort that is trivial, it's that his own statement is self-apparent and that doesn't help progress his argument since he raised a strawman ...
 
Reactions: Despoiler
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |