Metro Exodus will likely be a DX12 title (speculation)

[richaron]

You have the same issue as he does by not reading other people's posts and you obviously don't understand what a "strawman" is, his argument is a textbook example of that since I make no mention of "effort" in my previous posts ...

Your reading comprehension is also entirely off too. I never meant that it's the developer's effort that is trivial, it's that his own statement is self-apparent and that doesn't help progress his argument since he raised a strawman ...

And I'll ask you to look in the mirror when talking about reading comprehension, since you seem to be in the defensive position and shooting blindly.

In essence I agreed with both of you that a low level API can perform better because *reasons*. I made no comment as to the specifics. But the effort and expertise of the developers is directly relevant to the conversation (*reasons*) and this is the point I took up. It's not a strawman argument (and, yes, I've been arguing logic long enough to have looked that stuff up).

Since it was relevant and you dismissed it I thought I would correct you,

 

[Carfax83]

It's not a strawman argument (and, yes, I've been arguing logic long enough to have looked that stuff up).

Actually it is a strawman argument. ThatBuzzkiller never mentioned developer effort at all in any of his previous posts.

 

[Carfax83]

Screw the stupid ray tracing. Its a gimmick IMO.

Personally I don't really care much about the raytracing myself much either. What I do care about though, is that the game will use DX12 and SM 6.0. This is the first game to my knowledge that will do so, and signifies to me that developers are finally beginning to turn their backs on legacy style programming.

 

[richaron]

Actually it is a strawman argument. ThatBuzzkiller never mentioned developer effort at all in any of his previous posts.

Nope, but they were talking about subjects directly relating to a developer's efforts and abilities in a low level API. Everyone I can see were talking about potential depending on proficient utilization of these low level APIs.

Which is on topic. So it's not a strawman argument. But I suspect the ongoing argument as to the concept of a strawman is off topic and does not add to the conversation.

 

[Muhammed]

I also never said anything about effort

It's important to note that we don't forget to perform optimizations at the high level such as writing your shaders geared towards the API usage or optimizing the data layout first before we talk about doing low level optimizations such as going into the specifics of how intermediate bytecode format like DXIL shaders (SM6.x) interact with the native GPU ISA in this case. These low level optimizations cannot be matched without the high level optimizations as an example shown by Alex and Fiona for advanced Metal shader optimizations.

Sounds like a lot of optimization "effort" to me.

 

[moonbogg]

Personally I don't really care much about the raytracing myself much either. What I do care about though, is that the game will use DX12 and SM 6.0. This is the first game to my knowledge that will do so, and signifies to me that developers are finally beginning to turn their backs on legacy style programming.

I agree moving forward with DX12 in a meaningful way is exciting to me, and new shader models are always awesome. But another thing about that new Metro demonstration video is that it looked like crap. It had nothing to do with the very hard to spot ray tracing effects (maybe the shiny broken pieces of glass?) but it had more to do with the graphics simply looking old and just not very impressive.

I'm definitely not paying for a new GPU to get better FPS in a game like that, lol. Did I miss something though? I think someone should get fired because that video was showing a crappy looking game that had year 2010 looking graphics.

Lots of games that have been out a while look better than this video even without the gimmicky ray tracing. I'm not paying a premium to get Nvidia's tensor cores to play a game that looks like that, lol. They need to show us some games that make us go, "Hooooly CRAP!!! OMG tell me you are kidding because those graphics are insane!"

If I don't find myself talking like that, then why would I pay more for tensor cores? You know they are charging more for those stupid things when they show up on a gaming GPU other than that $3,000 Titan (lawl), guaranteed.

 

[ThatBuzzkiller]

Sounds like a lot of optimization "effort" to me.

You're reaching, my paragraph was about high level vs low level optimizations and not about effort ...

 

[Vaporizer]

Finally NV has found a Way to bring Gameworks to DX12. Now is the Time that the will Support DX12 and will Encourage Game Developers to move beyond DX11.
Will be interesting how all the DX11 fans will turn with a fingersnip by NV to DX12 enthusiasts.

 

[TheELF]

Finally NV has found a Way to bring Gameworks to DX12. Now is the Time that the will Support DX12 and will Encourage Game Developers to move beyond DX11.
Will be interesting how all the DX11 fans will turn with a fingersnip by NV to DX12 enthusiasts.

Until nvidia comes up with multi core support for Dx12 like they have for Dx11 this won't happen.
Also as far as I know nvidia has support for all dx12 titles out there,it's not their fault if dx11 just runs better.

 

[krumme]

I agree moving forward with DX12 in a meaningful way is exciting to me, and new shader models are always awesome. But another thing about that new Metro demonstration video is that it looked like crap. It had nothing to do with the very hard to spot ray tracing effects (maybe the shiny broken pieces of glass?) but it had more to do with the graphics simply looking old and just not very impressive.

I'm definitely not paying for a new GPU to get better FPS in a game like that, lol. Did I miss something though? I think someone should get fired because that video was showing a crappy looking game that had year 2010 looking graphics.

Lots of games that have been out a while look better than this video even without the gimmicky ray tracing. I'm not paying a premium to get Nvidia's tensor cores to play a game that looks like that, lol. They need to show us some games that make us go, "Hooooly CRAP!!! OMG tell me you are kidding because those graphics are insane!"

If I don't find myself talking like that, then why would I pay more for tensor cores? You know they are charging more for those stupid things when they show up on a gaming GPU other than that $3,000 Titan (lawl), guaranteed.

What complicates things a bit is that artwork and physics often trumps the rest. Bf1 excells here but old tf2 had good art design in spades too.
Not to mention what a plain good game is even if it runs like crap and Post Unbelievable Bad Graphics.

 

[Carfax83]

I agree moving forward with DX12 in a meaningful way is exciting to me, and new shader models are always awesome. But another thing about that new Metro demonstration video is that it looked like crap. It had nothing to do with the very hard to spot ray tracing effects (maybe the shiny broken pieces of glass?) but it had more to do with the graphics simply looking old and just not very impressive.

They may have had to run it at lower settings to get an acceptable framerate I suppose, because this demo certainly looks worse than the E3 2017 demonstration.

 

[Artorias]

Looking forwards to this, Metro is the closest STALKER type game were ever going to get.

 

[Carfax83]

Until nvidia comes up with multi core support for Dx12 like they have for Dx11 this won't happen.
Also as far as I know nvidia has support for all dx12 titles out there,it's not their fault if dx11 just runs better.

Not sure what you mean by this. NVidia doesn't need to have explicit multicore support in their drivers for DX12 because DX12 is inherently multithreaded. And the reason why the DX11 path typically runs better is because it's the pathway developers spend the most amount of time optimizing in games that utilize both APIs. With DX12 only titles like Gears of War 4, Forza Horizon 3 etcetera, NVidia has very good performance.

 

[Carfax83]

Here's a video with RTX enabled and disabled in Metro Exodus, so you can see what a huge difference it makes in the ambient occlusion quality. The NVidia rep claims that the demo is running on a single Volta based GPU in real time.

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[caswow]

iam sorry i dont see anything special in that video.

 

[psolord]

The Ray traced one seems significantly better but it seems like they are trying to make ssao ugly. I mean we have seen countless games without Ray tracing that are very beautiful.

 

[caswow]

The Ray traced one seems significantly better but it seems like they are trying to make ssao ugly. I mean we have seen countless games without Ray tracing that are very beautiful.

thats what i was thinking. i see the difference but i dont believe that ssao looks that ugly. just yesterday i finished metro 2033 redux and it looked pretty similar to the ray traced version

 

[Carfax83]

iam sorry i dont see anything special in that video.

The biggest difference by far is that the ray traced version is much more globalized, and therefore much more realistic. With SSAO, the inside of that little house is much more lit than it should be.

 

[ZGR]

I'll be disabling SSAO or HBAO+ for this game since my GPU will be too slow anyways

 

[Guru]

DX12 can always be faster than DX11, the issue is the multitude of cards and architectures. If say we only had 2 GPU's the GTX 100 and RX 200, and game developers optimized only for those two cards in DX12, then DX12 could easily be 40% faster than DX11.

The issue arrives when they have to optimize the DX12 pathway for a multitude of cards and architectures, even between AMD's cards like Polaris and Vega there is a big architectural difference. That is why you sometimes see DX12 benefit polaris immensely, but Vega not by as much or vice versa, because certain DX12 optimizations work better on certain architectures.