MIami-dade does it again

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
linkage

NEW ELECTRONIC VOTING SYSTEM IN FLORIDA: FLAWED... all electronic records from first widespread use of touch-screen voting in Miami-Dade County have been lost ,,, records disappeared after two computer system crashes last year, leaving no audit trail for the 2002 gubernatorial primary... Developing NYT PAGE ONE, newsroom sources... MORE

I wonder if there is a voting system that these people could not screw up.
 

Painman

Diamond Member
Feb 27, 2000
3,805
29
86
I think they might need to go back to different colored rocks. As long as they don't screw up on which color rock is for whom
 

T2T III

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
12,899
1
0
I can see it now ... the Pro-Kerry folks will find a way to make this look like a GOP-created event in order to delay the election. :roll: :roll:
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: charrison
linkage

NEW ELECTRONIC VOTING SYSTEM IN FLORIDA: FLAWED... all electronic records from first widespread use of touch-screen voting in Miami-Dade County have been lost ,,, records disappeared after two computer system crashes last year, leaving no audit trail for the 2002 gubernatorial primary... Developing NYT PAGE ONE, newsroom sources... MORE

I wonder if there is a voting system that these people could not screw up.

Lost Record of Vote in '02 Florida Race Raises '04 Concern

CkG
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
That whole idea of getting the UN observers into Flori-duh for the elections is looking more and more appealing every day.
 

1cito

Senior member
May 26, 2001
324
0
76
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
That whole idea of getting the UN observers into Flori-duh for the elections is looking more and more appealing every day.

As a citizen of the greatest democratic country in world, I would be embarrassed if this happened.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/28/politics/campaign/28vote.final.html?ei=5006&en=b992e2c2cfb441c3&ex=1091592000&partner=ALTAVISTA1&pagewanted=print&position=
MIAMI, July 27 - Almost all the electronic records from the first widespread use of touch-screen voting in Miami-Dade County have been lost, stoking concerns that the machines are unreliable as the presidential election draws near.

The records disappeared after two computer system crashes last year, county elections officials said, leaving no audit trail for the 2002 gubernatorial primary. A citizens group uncovered the loss this month after requesting all audit data from that election.

A county official said a new backup system would prevent electronic voting data from being lost in the future. But members of the citizens group, the Miami-Dade Election Reform Coalition, said the malfunction underscored the vulnerability of electronic voting records and wiped out data that might have shed light on what problems, if any, still existed with touch-screen machines here. The group supplied the results of its request to The New York Times.

"This shows that unless we do something now - or it may very well be too late - Florida is headed toward being the next Florida," said Lida Rodriguez-Taseff, a lawyer who is the chairwoman of the coalition.

After the disputed 2000 presidential election eroded confidence in voting machines nationwide, and in South Florida in particular, the state moved quickly to adopt new technology, and in many places touch-screen machines. Voters in 15 Florida counties - covering more than half the state's electorate - will use the machines in November, but reports of mishaps and lost votes in smaller elections over the last two years have cast doubt on their reliability.

Like "black boxes" on airplanes, the electronic voting records on touch-screen machines list everything that happens from boot-up to shutdown, documenting in an "event log" when every ballot was cast. The records also include "vote image reports" that show for whom each ballot was cast. Elections officials have said that using this data for recounts is unnecessary because touch-screen machines do not allow human error. But several studies have suggested the machines themselves might err - for instance, by failing to record some votes.

After the 2002 primary, between Democratic candidates Janet Reno and Bill McBride, the American Civil Liberties Union of Florida conducted a study that found that 8 percent of votes, or 1,544, were lost on touch-screen machines in 31 precincts in Miami-Dade County. The group considered that rate of what it called "lost votes" unusually high.

Voting problems plagued Miami-Dade and Broward Counties on that day, when touch-screen machines took much longer than expected to boot up, dozens of polling places opened late and poorly trained poll workers turned on and shut down the machines incorrectly. A final vote tally - which narrowed the margin first reported between the two candidates by more than 3,000 votes - was delayed for a week.

Ms. Reno, who ultimately lost to Mr. McBride by just 4,794 votes statewide, considered requesting a recount at the time but decided against it. Seth Kaplan, a spokesman for the Miami-Dade elections division, said on Tuesday that the office had put in place a daily backup procedure so that computer crashes would not wipe out audit records in the future.

The news of the lost data comes two months after Miami-Dade elections officials acknowledged a malfunction in the audit logs of touch-screen machines. The elections office first noticed the problem in spring 2003, but did not publicly discuss it until this past May.

The company that makes Miami-Dade's machines, Election Systems and Software of Omaha, Neb., has provided corrective software to all nine Florida counties that use its machines. One flaw occurred when the machines' batteries ran low and an error in the program that reported the problem caused corruption in the machine's event log, said Douglas W. Jones, a computer science professor at the University of Iowa whom Miami-Dade County hired to help solve the problem.

In a second flaw, the county's election system software was misreading the serial numbers of the voting machines whose batteries had run low, he said.

The flaws would not have affected vote counts, he said - only the backup data used for audits after an election. And because a new state rule prohibits manual recounts in counties that use touch-screen voting machines except in the event of a natural disaster, there would likely be no use for the data anyway.

State officials have said that they created the rule because under state law, the only reason for a manual recount is to determine "voter intent" in close races when, for example, a voter appears to choose two presidential candidates or none.

Touch-screen machines, officials say, are programmed not to record two votes, and if no vote is recorded, they say, it means the voter did not cast one.

But The Sun-Sentinel of Fort Lauderdale, in a recent analysis of the March presidential primary, reported that voters in counties using touch-screen machines were six times as likely to record no vote as were voters in counties using optical-scan machines, which read markings on paper ballots.

The A.C.L.U. of Florida and several other voting rights groups have sued to overturn the recount rule, saying it creates unequal treatment of voters. Counties that use optical-scan machines can conduct recounts, though only in extremely close races.

Mr. Kaplan says that the system crashes had erased data from other elections besides Ms. Reno's, the most recent being municipal elections in November 2003. Under Florida law, ballot records from elections for state and local office need be kept for only a year. For federal races, the records must be kept for 22 months after an election is certified. It was not immediately clear what the consequences might be of breaching that law.

Mr. Kaplan said the backup system was added last December.

An August 2002 report from Miami-Dade County auditors to David Leahy, then the county elections supervisor, recommended that all data from touch-screen machines be backed up on CD's or elsewhere. Professor Jones said it was an obvious practice long considered essential in the corporate world.

"Any naïve observer who knows about computer system management and who knows there is a requirement that all the records be stored for a period of months," Professor Jones said, "would say you should obviously do that with computerized voting systems."

Buddy Johnson, the elections supervisor in Hillsborough County, which is one of the state's largest counties and which also uses touch-screen machines, said his office still had its data from the 2002 elections on separate hard drives.

Mr. Kaplan of the Miami-Dade elections office could not immediately explain on Tuesday afternoon the system crashes in 2003. Martha Mahoney, a University of Miami law professor and member of the election reform group, said she requested the 2002 audit data because she had never heard an explanation of the supposedly lost votes that the A.C.L.U. documented after the Reno-McBride election.

"People can never be sure their vote was recorded the way it was cast, but these are the best records we've got," she said. "And now they're not there."

Time for Election Systems and Software to be raked over the coals along with the politicians in Florida for not demanding a paper audit trail.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: 1cito
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
That whole idea of getting the UN observers into Flori-duh for the elections is looking more and more appealing every day.

As a citizen of the greatest democratic country in world, I would be embarrassed if this happened.

:beer:

CkG
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: 1cito
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
That whole idea of getting the UN observers into Flori-duh for the elections is looking more and more appealing every day.
As a citizen of the greatest democratic country in world, I would be embarrassed if this happened.
I will feel embarrassed if another Florida fiasco occurs in Nov. Wouldn't you rather ensure this election is held properly?
 

1cito

Senior member
May 26, 2001
324
0
76
Originally posted by: conjur
I will feel embarrassed if another Florida fiasco occurs in Nov. Wouldn't you rather ensure this election is held properly?

No question I would be embarrassed, but I have faith that Floridians will get it right this time. This is an American election, we need to keep this in house.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: 1cito
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
That whole idea of getting the UN observers into Flori-duh for the elections is looking more and more appealing every day.

As a citizen of the greatest democratic country in world, I would be embarrassed if this happened.

It will never ever happen in Ireland... so don't worry!
 

1cito

Senior member
May 26, 2001
324
0
76
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Originally posted by: 1cito
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
That whole idea of getting the UN observers into Flori-duh for the elections is looking more and more appealing every day.

As a citizen of the greatest democratic country in world, I would be embarrassed if this happened.

It will never ever happen in Ireland... so don't worry!

God Bless the Irish :beer:
 

CrazyHelloDeli

Platinum Member
Jun 24, 2001
2,854
0
0
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
That whole idea of getting the UN observers into Flori-duh for the elections is looking more and more appealing every day.


I cannot believe you actually want the UN to oversee OUR, The United States of America's, presidential election. Quite possibly the most un-American thing I have ever heard.

What is it with you Libs and your devotion to the UN, its downright unhealthy. You want the UN to hold your hand while you cross the street? Want them to wipe your ass for you? How about have the UN read a bedtime story? Oooh Goodie Goodie! Daddy Daddy Look, Mr.UN is going to babysit me for the rest of my life!

:roll:
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
Originally posted by: 1cito
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
That whole idea of getting the UN observers into Flori-duh for the elections is looking more and more appealing every day.

As a citizen of the greatest democratic country in world, I would be embarrassed if this happened.

in the last florida fiasco Russia offered to send in observers
 

Kibbo

Platinum Member
Jul 13, 2004
2,847
0
0
Here's a Canadian Idea:

Take a piece of paper, put the candidates' names on it, put a circle beside it, and give voters a pencil. Then count every one.
 

Fingolfin269

Lifer
Feb 28, 2003
17,948
31
91
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: 1cito
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
That whole idea of getting the UN observers into Flori-duh for the elections is looking more and more appealing every day.
As a citizen of the greatest democratic country in world, I would be embarrassed if this happened.
I will feel embarrassed if another Florida fiasco occurs in Nov. Wouldn't you rather ensure this election is held properly?

I would rather have 1 billion Florida fiascos as opposed to one election overseen by the UN.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
Originally posted by: Kibbo
Here's a Canadian Idea:

Take a piece of paper, put the candidates' names on it, put a circle beside it, and give voters a pencil. Then count every one.

But many people in Fla can not read and/or understand English (even though this is supposed to be a requirement for immigration citizenship). Those that are imbred are exempt from understanding how to vote.

What about the dead people that ote in Fla. How will they circle the candidates name
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,700
6,197
126
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Originally posted by: 1cito
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
That whole idea of getting the UN observers into Flori-duh for the elections is looking more and more appealing every day.

As a citizen of the greatest democratic country in world, I would be embarrassed if this happened.

It will never ever happen in Ireland... so don't worry!

The early bird gets the worm. I was going to say, "You mean this can't happen in India?"
 

digitalsm

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2003
5,253
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: 1cito
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
That whole idea of getting the UN observers into Flori-duh for the elections is looking more and more appealing every day.
As a citizen of the greatest democratic country in world, I would be embarrassed if this happened.
I will feel embarrassed if another Florida fiasco occurs in Nov. Wouldn't you rather ensure this election is held properly?

Who controls most of the county election boards in Florida? Oh thats right Democrats.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: digitalsm
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: 1cito
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
That whole idea of getting the UN observers into Flori-duh for the elections is looking more and more appealing every day.
As a citizen of the greatest democratic country in world, I would be embarrassed if this happened.
I will feel embarrassed if another Florida fiasco occurs in Nov. Wouldn't you rather ensure this election is held properly?
Who controls most of the county election boards in Florida? Oh thats right Democrats.
I fail to see the point behind your post.

And, btw, link for proof?
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
conjur:

Large majority of the population in Fla existings in S Fla. - That accounts for close to half the voters.

Dems control Palm Beach, Broward and Miami-Dade.

It was the Dems that developed the infamous butterfly ballot in PB.

I suspect that the greater Orlando, Jacksonville and Tampa counties are also heavily Dem. That covers another 25% of the population/voters
 

wiin

Senior member
Oct 28, 1999
937
0
76
quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NEW ELECTRONIC VOTING SYSTEM IN FLORIDA: FLAWED... all electronic records from first widespread use of touch-screen voting in Miami-Dade County have been lost ,,, records disappeared after two computer system crashes last year, leaving no audit trail for the 2002 gubernatorial primary... Developing NYT PAGE ONE, newsroom sources... MORE

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Elections Officials in Miami Find 2002 Data
 

Yo Ma Ma

Lifer
Jan 21, 2000
11,635
2
0
Originally posted by: Kibbo
Here's a Canadian Idea:

Take a piece of paper, put the candidates' names on it, put a circle beside it, and give voters a pencil. Then count every one.

This is really the best solution. Electronics scare the old folks, it's not what they are familiar with. I hope they go easy on them this election day, you don't want to get them spooked and start a stampede.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
conjur:

Large majority of the population in Fla existings in S Fla. - That accounts for close to half the voters.

Dems control Palm Beach, Broward and Miami-Dade.

It was the Dems that developed the infamous butterfly ballot in PB.

I suspect that the greater Orlando, Jacksonville and Tampa counties are also heavily Dem. That covers another 25% of the population/voters

You "suspect"? Yeah, that's proof.

And, I know all about Palm Beach County. Carol Roberts should have been brought up on charges of fraud in her attempt to give every vote to Gore.
 
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