Michigan thread -- will easy access to freshwater and good land help turn the economy around?

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
The newspaper said an assembly plant in Newark, Delaware, and an engine plant in Detroit would likely be closed.

GM...Ford...and now Chrysler. I suppose it was inevitable. Looks like Michissippi takes it on the chin again.

On that note...if you're a Michigander, do you know people who've fled the state in the hopes of better job and career opportunities elsewhere?

Are there any reasons at all, aside from the slim possibility of landing a decent job, for twentysomethings to stay in the state?

Is there any hope for my beloved home state of Michissippi, or is it only going to get worse? From what I can tell, the state's politicians are completely clueless. Why not look at the economic polices of states that are doing well that are devoid of natural resources such as oil and coal and ore and copy them? Would anyone care to suggest a state that has model economic policies (taxes, regulations, or lack thereof) that Michigan could adopt (after scrapping it's own flawed taxes and regulations).

In the meantime, has the price of one-way long-distance U-Hauls skyrocketed? I can't imagine that Michigan's U-Haul shops have been the recipients of too many trucks over the past couple years. I suppose that they have to hire drivers to bring them in from other states. It might just be cheaper for a Michigander to pick one up in Indiana.

Also, should the name of the state be changed to Michissippi? At least that's what I'm going to call it from now on.

 

[Blackjack2000]

My Aunt and Uncle left Saginaw, MI about 5 years ago. Uncle was a UAW worker. Honestly, the employment situation they found in Maine hasn't been much better.

I read an article in the NYT magazine a few months ago where an economist suggested that you might be able prove that there is no economic reason to live in Detroit. It's sad.

 

[Corbett]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
The newspaper said an assembly plant in Newark, Delaware, and an engine plant in Detroit would likely be closed.

GM...Ford...and now Chrysler. I suppose it was inevitable. Looks like Michissippi takes it on the chin again.

On that note...if you're a Michigander, do you know people who've fled the state in the hopes of better job and career opportunities elsewhere?

Are there any reasons at all, aside from the slim possibility of landing a decent job, for twentysomethings to stay in the state?

Is there any hope for my beloved home state of Michissippi, or is it only going to get worse? From what I can tell, the state's politicians are completely clueless. Why not look at the economic polices of states that are doing well that are devoid of natural resources such as oil and coal and ore and copy them? Would anyone care to suggest a state that has model economic policies (taxes, regulations, or lack thereof) that Michigan could adopt (after scrapping it's own flawed taxes and regulations).

In the meantime, has the price of one-way long-distance U-Hauls skyrocketed? I can't imagine that Michigan's U-Haul shops have been the recipients of too many trucks over the past couple years. I suppose that they have to hire drivers to bring them in from other states. It might just be cheaper for a Michigander to pick one up in Indiana.

Also, should the name of the state be changed to Michissippi? At least that's what I'm going to call it from now on.

I have to say I am one of the few lucky ones who just moved BACK to Michigan back in May and have since found a great job and a great house. Well I live here in SE Michigan and yes things are not good. I'm safe because I am in the medical industry but my younger brother was just laid off from his mechanical engineering job a few weeks ago. He is currently looking for work in Chicago.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Detroit per se--definitely no reason to live there. Much of the city looks like a war zone (literally). However, the northwestern suburbs where the upper middle class lives (Oakland County--one of the wealthiest counties in the nation) aren't so bad. Housing prices haven't completely tanked yet, but I suppose it's only a matter of time before they return to Earth.

What's real sad is that the Republicans failed to deliver a halfway-decent candidate for governor this year, allowing Jennifer Granholm, who must be one of the nation's worst governors, to get re-elected.

I don't know much about Maine other than that I'm under the impression that it's economy isn't that much better than Michigan's, which is real sad because I'm sure it's a beautiful state. I'd consider moving to Maine, but only if it made economic sense.

 

[imported_Shivetya]

Failed social programs, betting the farm on one industry, and a political climate that was hostile to reform, doomed Michigan to the state its in now. Detroit is perfect example of a city that taxed itself nearly out of existance. That along with coddling the criminals by excusing their actions as if they were not mature enough to be otherwise.

Just like portions of the midwest nearly vanished because of the steel industry being lost adjusted so will Michigan have to adjust. Lets just hope they don't try to buy their way out with loads of entitlement programs when they have not enough to pay for the ones they already have

 

[halik]

I'm moving back to MI for grad school (crossing fingers)

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
Detroit per se--definitely no reason to live there. Much of the city looks like a war zone (literally). However, the northwestern suburbs where the upper middle class lives (Oakland County--one of the wealthiest counties in the nation) aren't so bad. Housing prices haven't completely tanked yet, but I suppose it's only a matter of time before they return to Earth.

What's real sad is that the Republicans failed to deliver a halfway-decent candidate for governor this year, allowing Jennifer Granholm, who must be one of the nation's worst governors, to get re-elected.

I don't know much about Maine other than that I'm under the impression that it's economy isn't that much better than Michigan's, which is real sad because I'm sure it's a beautiful state. I'd consider moving to Maine, but only if it made economic sense.

QFT... Granholm is horrible, but voting for that nut DeVos wasn't even an option.

 

[imported_redlotus]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
On that note...if you're a Michigander, do you know people who've fled the state in the hopes of better job and career opportunities elsewhere?

Only second-hand and they were all related to the closing of a Bosch plant here in Grand Rapids.

Are there any reasons at all, aside from the slim possibility of landing a decent job, for twentysomethings to stay in the state?

Not really. Unless you like being within 2 hours from a beach during the summer, within an hour from a ski slope in the winter, and within five miles of the nearest golf course

Is there any hope for my beloved home state of Michissippi, or is it only going to get worse? From what I can tell, the state's politicians are completely clueless. Why not look at the economic polices of states that are doing well that are devoid of natural resources such as oil and coal and ore and copy them? Would anyone care to suggest a state that has model economic policies (taxes, regulations, or lack thereof) that Michigan could adopt (after scrapping it's own flawed taxes and regulations).

Can't help you much here. I do know that this side of the state has not been hit nearly as hard, though. I also think that Granholm's "betting the farm" on the life sciences industry won't bring near the result she's hoping for. There's just too much demand from other states in that sector.

In the meantime, has the price of one-way long-distance U-Hauls skyrocketed? I can't imagine that Michigan's U-Haul shops have been the recipients of too many trucks over the past couple years. I suppose that they have to hire drivers to bring them in from other states. It might just be cheaper for a Michigander to pick one up in Indiana.

I seem to remember reading that U-Haul was having a big problem getting their trucks back into the state, but I don't know if that is still a problem.

Also, should the name of the state be changed to Michissippi? At least that's what I'm going to call it from now on.

Meh, what's in a name? I think that may be a bit harsh, though. Michigan's huge agricultural industry, and all of the supporting industries, will keep it from becoming a ghost state, but only time will tell.

 

[techs]

People aren't leaving Michigan for a "better" job. They are leaving for any job, and the only ones available are low wage, low benefit jobs in the southern states.
This is BAD for America as the middle class is being destroyed.
As even Alan Greenspan said it may not be possible to continue as a democracy if the middle class is destroyed.
As I see it once enough people are in the low paying, low benefit jobs they will become the largest voting block by far, and then you will see some out of control government programs enacted.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: redlotus
Meh, what's in a name? I think that may be a bit harsh, though.

Michigan's huge agricultural industry, and all of the supporting industries, will keep it from becoming a ghost state, but only time will tell.

All you guys acting as if it was nothing.

We're talking about entire states becoming "Ghost States" and you don;t see anything wrong with this picture?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: techs
People aren't leaving Michigan for a "better" job. They are leaving for any job, and the only ones available are low wage, low benefit jobs in the southern states.
This is BAD for America as the middle class is being destroyed.
As even Alan Greenspan said it may not be possible to continue as a democracy if the middle class is destroyed.
As I see it once enough people are in the low paying, low benefit jobs they will become the largest voting block by far, and then you will see some out of control government programs enacted.

If my middle class job vaporizes, I'm outta here. I'm not sure exactly where I'd go, but I'm interested in the West-central-north states such as Wyoming, Utah, Idaho, and Montana (assuming that the Montana economy has improved). Here in Michigan we hear a lot about how Wyoming needs people for jobs like people need jobs here in Michigan.

Regarding the lower class becoming a powerful voting block--I don't see it happening. After all, using that same logic, the middle class should become a powerful voting block too, but that doesn't seem to have had much of an effect yet. What would be really neat would be if people started demanding that candidates be members of their own economic class.

I'm wondering when housing prices here in Michigan will come back down to earth. By coming back down to earth, I mean that a three bedroom 2000 ft house should go for about $100,000 in the metro Detroit area. Of course, my view is that the price of housing has gone completely insane nationwide.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: techs
People aren't leaving Michigan for a "better" job.

They are leaving for any job, and the only ones available are low wage, low benefit jobs in the southern states.

This is BAD for America as the middle class is being destroyed.

As even Alan Greenspan said it may not be possible to continue as a democracy if the middle class is destroyed.

As I see it once enough people are in the low paying, low benefit jobs they will become the largest voting block by far, and then you will see some out of control government programs enacted.

Well the Republican goal has been to make the majority low class and bankrupt the Country. Both goals just about fully acheived.

So what exactly is the result Government wise?

Because it would no longer be Democratic.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: techs
People aren't leaving Michigan for a "better" job.

They are leaving for any job, and the only ones available are low wage, low benefit jobs in the southern states.

This is BAD for America as the middle class is being destroyed.

As even Alan Greenspan said it may not be possible to continue as a democracy if the middle class is destroyed.

As I see it once enough people are in the low paying, low benefit jobs they will become the largest voting block by far, and then you will see some out of control government programs enacted.

Well the Republican goal has been to make the majority low class and bankrupt the Country. Both goals just about fully acheived.
So what exactly is the result Government wise?

Because it would no longer be Democratic.

Your bullshit pisses me off sometimes. Just because you may not agree with someone doesnt mean they out to ruin everyone else. This is America you dolt. We all have differing opinions, and in the case of federal government, thats brings balance. If you had one ounce of intelligence you would learn this and learn to quit spewing hatred for other Americans.

Youre so pathetic. You remind me of Stalin - his way is the only right way.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: techs
People aren't leaving Michigan for a "better" job.

They are leaving for any job, and the only ones available are low wage, low benefit jobs in the southern states.

This is BAD for America as the middle class is being destroyed.

As even Alan Greenspan said it may not be possible to continue as a democracy if the middle class is destroyed.

As I see it once enough people are in the low paying, low benefit jobs they will become the largest voting block by far, and then you will see some out of control government programs enacted.

Well the Republican goal has been to make the majority low class and bankrupt the Country. Both goals just about fully acheived.
So what exactly is the result Government wise?

Because it would no longer be Democratic.

Your bullshit pisses me off sometimes. Just because you may not agree with someone doesnt mean they out to ruin everyone else. This is America you dolt. We all have differing opinions, and in the case of federal government, thats brings balance. If you had one ounce of intelligence you would learn this and learn to quit spewing hatred for other Americans.

Youre so pathetic. You remind me of Stalin - his way is the only right way.

I don't re-call saying anything about "You're either with us or against us".

That's your hero Bush not mine.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: techs
People aren't leaving Michigan for a "better" job.

They are leaving for any job, and the only ones available are low wage, low benefit jobs in the southern states.

This is BAD for America as the middle class is being destroyed.

As even Alan Greenspan said it may not be possible to continue as a democracy if the middle class is destroyed.

As I see it once enough people are in the low paying, low benefit jobs they will become the largest voting block by far, and then you will see some out of control government programs enacted.

Well the Republican goal has been to make the majority low class and bankrupt the Country. Both goals just about fully acheived.
So what exactly is the result Government wise?

Because it would no longer be Democratic.

Your bullshit pisses me off sometimes. Just because you may not agree with someone doesnt mean they out to ruin everyone else. This is America you dolt. We all have differing opinions, and in the case of federal government, thats brings balance. If you had one ounce of intelligence you would learn this and learn to quit spewing hatred for other Americans.

Youre so pathetic. You remind me of Stalin - his way is the only right way.

I don't re-call saying anything about "You're either with us or against us".

That's your hero Bush not mine.

And likewise those your tax and spend flip-flopping freshman senetors, not mine.

So what do we do now? continue bashing the other side? Or are you a shill for the Democrats? How much do they pay you?

How about we learn to agree to disagree. Or are you too set in your ways to even think that another point of view may have some value?

 

[Gooberlx2]

When the Onion pokes fun at the city with titles like "Detroit sold for scrap, China now owns 62% of city", you should know there's nothing left. Detroit and the metro area dragged that whole state down. The only things left are medical, maybe some computer science (isn't Google building near Ann Arbor?), tourism in the north and perhaps som farming. None of which have anything to do with the wasteland that is Detroit.

I'm glad I left.

 

[irwincur]

Well the Republican goal has been to make the majority low class and bankrupt the Country. Both goals just about fully acheived.

Well, the Democrats manage to keep the poor and stupid, poor and stupid through promises and entitlements. Then when they get their votes, turn around and shaft them, they blame the big, bad, mean, GOP. It has been this way for nearly sixty years, and the result is this - Michigan.

Actually, Eastern Michigan is the pit, here in Grand Rapids, things are doing alright. As a matter of fact, regardless of the doom and gloom news, we have had a net increase in even manufacuturing jobs over the last decade. Not to mention tremendous growth in more up and coming job sectors.

 

[TraumaRN]

In Detroit proper(I work downtown) the only really viable option left is medical to get at least a really guaranteed job. And thats what is sad, Detroit and the surrounding areas have some amazingly world class health care systems in place. Between the Detroit Medical Center(my employer), Henry Ford and U-M Health, and to a lesser extent Beaumont and St John's you really got some options for health care...and jobs. Of course no one in Lansing has tried to exploit this fact.

Compuware and Comerica offer opportunities downtown but again....good luck getting in.

The rest of Detroit is a mixed bag of total crap and 'just ok' at best. There are some nice condos and whatnot going up along the riverfront but no real infrastructure to support them in the city itself(e.g. home depot, walmart, meijer, etc)

Detroit itself isnt over taxed per say...I mean if you work in Detroit but dont live there, you have to pay taxes, which is 1.2%...which is literally nothing. Couple hundred bucks a year and I'll get probably 50% of it back.

The corruption and lack of change is what is killing Detroit and alot of the state. Detroit Public Schools are getting screwed badly right now because they need to close a massive chunk of the buildings....yet....people are blocking it and it might not happen despite the fact that the district has lost over HALF it's student body in 10 years. Buildings NEED to close but the citizens wont let it happen.

I love this area because if you know where things are it's great fun. Ann Arbor is a fun town, Grand Rapids which is close to my family's second house is great too.

And I dont think Granholm or DeVos were really that great. Granholm was the lesser of two evils and if she's crap then John Engler who royally raped this state up the arse really hurt our state in the 90s.

But the biggest problem still remains that we are a state dependant on farming and manufacturing...until that changes this state is JACKED. But I wont leave, not now, not with the job I have.

 

[CPA]

This is not a political issue, unless you want to make it mandatory that US citizens can only purchase GM, Ford or Chrysler products.

Honestly, people, what did you think was going to happen when Toyota became the best selling carmaker in America?

On CNBC the other morning, they put up an interesting stat: for every 10 domestic automaker jobs lost, only 1 is created by the Foreign automakers in the US. Even with the Honda and Toyota plants being built, they don't need as many workers and/or aren't tied into staffing requirements by the unions.

Some of you want the domestics to compete, but don't want the reality of what it takes to compete.

 

[Turkey22]

I like Michigan other than the freezing cold we are getting right now.

Really it's just a few areas that are bottoming out like Flint/Bay City area and parts of Detroit.
There's actually quite a bit of nice area surrounding Detroit. Actually if you want super cheap housing Bay City has nice housing for under $80k and average housing around $50-60k. That's right on the bay too. Lansing has had it's share of problems lately but did replace one of the old plants with a new one recently. Jobs aren't all that plentiful, but if you can get one it's not a bad place to live.

 

[BarneyFife]

The thing is that I really don't know too many people out of work. I am here for the long haul because I recently landed a govt job as an engineer. I don't think I will have to worry about being laid off.

 

[Corn]

Originally posted by: DeathBUA
Granholm was the lesser of two evils and if she's crap then John Engler who royally raped this state up the arse really hurt our state in the 90s.

Ummmm, no. Prior to Engler the economy in this state was in terrible shape, similer to what is is now. When Engler won election this state was suffering huge budget deficits, just like what is happening now. During Engler's term, the state balanced the budget to the tune of budget surplusses swelling the rainy day fund into billions of dollars. Engler's vision and investment in a life sciences corridor (why hedge your bets solely with the auto industry?) has been squandered by Granholm and now Pfizer is leaving for greener pastures, typical of Granholm's governorship. The lessor of two evils, Granholm has been an unmitigated disaster since she took office. Would Devos have been any better? Dunno, but he certainly couldn't have been worse.

The facts prove the state prospered during Engler's governorship. It was Blanchard and and now Granholm who are/were raping this state up the arse due to their lack of vision and incompetence. Oh, lets continue to give away free laptop computers to Michigan students during a budget crunch--that's vision!

 

[BarneyFife]

You do realize that during Engler's last year, the unemployment rate was 6.7%

 

[Corn]

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
You do realize that during Engler's last year, the unemployment rate was 6.7%

Perspective is lost on the lefties.

What does this chart say to you?

It says to me that once solidly into Engler's term, MI's unemployment rate closely followed the norm of the country within half a point in either direction. The 2002 numbers directly correspond to the effect 9/11 had on the economy as a whole. Meanwhile, the rest of the country has slowly leveled off while MI lags behind. Engler brought business to this state, Granholm seems determined to drive it away.

 

[bloodthirster]

I dont think its Englers or Granholms fault. Basically all the free trade agreements have screwed the auto industry in Michigan. Why would anyone have a part made or a tool built in Michigan when they can get it from China at 1/3rd the cost and 100% of the quality.