Micro VS Atx

[sabooya]

Is there any significant difference between standard ATX and Micro other then the obvious lack of PCI slots?

 

[Gillbot]

physical size?

 

[Skott]

ATX mobos typically OC higher than mATX. More features on a ATX mobo too generally speaking. Of course some high end mATX mobos are better than low-medium end ATX mobos. Cooling is better on a ATX but thats more to do with the ATX case being larger than a SFF case (which is often used when it comes to mATX rigs) and you can fit larger HSF in a ATX case but as I said that has more do with the cases than the mobos.

 

[bunnyfubbles]

Aren't those disadvantages you listed largely because ATX is simply far more popular than mATX? IMO we just need some more really cool and innovative mATX case designs and the number of really awesome mATX boards should rise pretty dramatically.

 

[Binky]

ATX is bigger, but not necessarily better. This gives MB makers more room to work. Maybe it's just that people expect larger MB's to be better. It seems relatively true that with a given quality and feature level, a full ATX board is slightly cheaper. What I do know is that my little P5K-VM (mATX) overclocks like a champ, and so does my IP35pro (ATX).

There are several extremely nice mAtx boards out now that make you question the need for full ATX size boards for the vast majority of users...

 

[sabooya]

Can anyone recommend a good mATX mobo? Or a good site that coudl help me out?

 

[Binky]

Good is difficult to measure. It depends on what you need it for. The new AMD 780 chipset looks fantastic for HTPC use (gigabyte has a board out already). Several very good boards are available on the Intel G31 chipset (gigabyte, Asus, maybe others), and Asus has a great board using the G35 chipset.

 

[Skott]

They all have various features and whatnot but if you are looking for OCing potential on the Intel side then the the three top mATX mobos would be P5E-VM HDMI, P5K-VM, and the DS2R. There are some others that OC pretty good but those are the three top ones IMO. XS and HF has more mATX talk than AT does IMO. You can check those sites if you want more details about the mobos and what users are getting out of them.

 

[Zap]

Originally posted by: sabooya
Is there any significant difference between standard ATX and Micro other then the obvious lack of PCI slots?

Regarding the form factor, that's the only difference. Regarding actual products on the market, well, mATX boards tend to favor cheap office all-in-one boards, and more recently media PC/HTPC oriented boards. It has little to do with being ATX versus micro ATX, but more with people's perceptions - "people" includes those working for motherboard manufacturers.

It's a vicious cycle. There are no "good" micro ATX boards on the market so consumers don't buy them. Manufacturers don't see anyone buying "good" micro ATX boards, so they don't make them. Chicken & egg problem.

However, there HAVE been many "good" micro ATX boards out... just that many people aren't aware of them because they don't think micro ATX boards are worthy of looking at. There are or have been micro ATX boards that on the AMD side overclock to 400MHz HTT and Intel side overclock to 550MHz+ FSB, boards who's integrated video can offload HD video streams from the CPU, boards that have MORE video connections than all the PCI-E video cards on the market (s-video, VGA, DVI, HDMI all w/o adaptors), boards with all the "extra" stuff such as Firewire, eSATA, SPDIF, RAID, 4 fan headers, SLI, Crossfire... WTF more does one want in a mATX board?

Originally posted by: sabooya
Can anyone recommend a good mATX mobo? Or a good site that coudl help me out?

You can start with Anandtech Forums. Oh wait, you already did. What are you looking for in a motherboard besides being smaller than ATX? Once you tell us that, then we can start recommending boards.

 

[kyotousa]

Originally posted by: Binky
Good is difficult to measure. It depends on what you need it for. The new AMD 780 chipset looks fantastic for HTPC use (gigabyte has a board out already). Several very good boards are available on the Intel G31 chipset (gigabyte, Asus, maybe others), and Asus has a great board using the G35 chipset.

I want a microATX board with 780G and uses good capacitors.
It needs to be compatible with Corair DDR2 XMS2 6400.

or

micro ATX board that uses good capactor and fit both graphic card that can output 1080P with passive cooling and 1212M (2 PCI slots) sound card.

I am not using it for gaming at all...I am building it for HTPC and needs to reduce electro noise.

 

[BlueAcolyte]

You mean like the Gigabyte board at newegg? I think Gigabyte uses solid capacitors or something like that.

 

[kyotousa]

something like gigabyte's.....but those are ATX board

I read gigabyte's 780g board has electro noise...

 

[JimiP]

Originally posted by: kyotousa
something like gigabyte's.....but those are ATX board

I read gigabyte's 780g board has electro noise...

Gigabyte's 780G board is not ATX, it's a mATX.

 

[Synomenon]

Do you have a link? I couldn't find a mATX 780G board on Gigabyte's site.

 

[kyotousa]

Originally posted by: JimiP

Originally posted by: kyotousa
something like gigabyte's.....but those are ATX board

I read gigabyte's 780g board has electro noise...

Gigabyte's 780G board is not ATX, it's a mATX.

I was talking about GA-MA770-DS3 not GA-MA78GM-S2H

 

[Tweakin]

I would love to see a mAtx board with a full bios and no on-board video. I think this is where they fail. How about a nice P35/ICH9R chipset, one PCI x16 and 2 PCI. Like the old ATI Radeon Xpress 200 board only with a proper BIOS implementation.

 

[Zap]

Originally posted by: Tweakin
I would love to see a mAtx board with a full bios and no on-board video. I think this is where they fail.

There has been a couple mATX boards sans IGP, but none with super overclocking. The short list includes:

AOpen MX4B (845D chipset, I bought one and my in-laws are still using it)
Chaintech Summit 7NIL1 (Nforce2 Ultra 400, I bought one and "wire tricked" to overclock a mobile Barton)
EVGA 131-K8-NF44 SLI (Nforce4 SLI, I bought one and SLI'd in a MicroFly)

Foxconn also made some Nforce4 micro ATX boards, but I never bought any.

Regarding IGP... just ignore it if you don't want to use it. Reportedly the G33 and P35 chipsets are pretty much identical, with the P35 having the IGP disabled. Don't know if true, but I read it on the intarweb. As for overclocking some mATX with IGP boards are terrific, with the Asus and Gigabyte G33/G35 boards not giving up much versus normal ATX boards on the Intel side. With socket AM2 I played around with Biostar Tforce6100 boards and abit NF-M2 nView boards with great success. I was POSTing at 365MHz HTT, which was pushing my locked-multiplier Sempron pretty hard (1.6GHz chip at near 3GHz).

 

[PingSpike]

Yep. Its the chicken egg problem as Zap mentioned. There's a niche market for a badass full featured matx board that isn't really getting met most of the time. While onboard video continues to improve, its not always a good option for all applications. Say you want to build a badass LAN rig that fit in a small package? You're probably going to end up with a board that has onboard video that you don't need and at best middle of the pack overclocking and bios options. You'll likely end up paying a little more for that onboard video. In the end, it'd probably make more sense to just give up on your space saving idea and go full ATX.

When the manufactorers make a tweakers delight, the automatically start with ATX. Anyone who wants something different ends up making a lot of compromises or goes back to ATX, so it seems like no one wants a highend mATX board. Thus, the perception continues by all that mATX is for crap boxes with onboard video and ATX is for serious stuff.

 

[Zap]

Originally posted by: PingSpike
so it seems like no one wants a highend mATX board. Thus, the perception continues by all that mATX is for crap boxes with onboard video and ATX is for serious stuff.

Well, the perception is changing, but at a slight tangent. Board makers are now starting to target HTPC with higher end mATX boards. I think they're doing this because it's a new niche, and of course slim-and-sexy HTPC cases mostly take mATX boards. The problem with an "enthusiast" mATX board is that it will directly compete with ATX boards by the same maker, while the HTPC-centric mATX boards will not.

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: Tweakin
I would love to see a mAtx board with a full bios and no on-board video.

Since we're dreaming, I'd like to see the above with no pata or floppy or ps/2 connectors. Seems like this would free up some board real estate for other things. I don't need 6 or 8 sata connectors either.

---

In general, the smaller size of the uatx enables the use of a smaller, lighter, less obtrusive case. This could be one reason that they're not as popular - people want to think they're getting something for their money and if the package is bigger, they must be... In the case of pc's - ie. personal computers, not servers, etc. - smaller is more for me. The current problem I have is finding a small case that can accomodate fans large enough that aren't noisy and still do a good job of cooling. The Antec 3300/3480 and the flimsy enermax eca3052bs (each with a different, quieter psu) are the smallest I've found acceptable.

 

[Skott]

Originally posted by: Zap

Originally posted by: PingSpike
so it seems like no one wants a highend mATX board. Thus, the perception continues by all that mATX is for crap boxes with onboard video and ATX is for serious stuff.

Well, the perception is changing, but at a slight tangent. Board makers are now starting to target HTPC with higher end mATX boards. I think they're doing this because it's a new niche, and of course slim-and-sexy HTPC cases mostly take mATX boards. The problem with an "enthusiast" mATX board is that it will directly compete with ATX boards by the same maker, while the HTPC-centric mATX boards will not.

Thats a very good point, Zap. Why pay $200-$300+ for a ATX mobo that is a high overclocker when you can pay $100-$150 for a mATX mobo thats a also a high overclocker? Like you said though there does seem to be some perception change going on with some mobo manufacturers. I rather like it.

 

[Zap]

Originally posted by: seemingly random
Since we're dreaming, I'd like to see the above with no pata or floppy or ps/2 connectors. Seems like this would free up some board real estate for other things. I don't need 6 or 8 sata connectors either.

Well, that would free up PCB to be... empty.

No PS/2, no PATA, fewer than 6 SATA, mATX... I know of a board like that!!! It is a trimmed down Foxconn G33M. I've got one, in my Dell Vostro 200. I think other Dells use the same board. I think it still has floppy though...

Intel DG33TL doesn't have PS/2 or floppy(!) but does have 6 SATA and an EIDE.

 

[AmberClad]

Originally posted by: Skott
Why pay $200-$300+ for a ATX mobo that is a high overclocker when you can pay $100-$150 for a mATX mobo thats a also a high overclocker?

To get those fancy faux copper heatpipes and chipset/MOSFET heatsinks :laugh:.

 

[Zap]

Originally posted by: AmberClad
To get those fancy faux copper heatpipes and chipset/MOSFET heatsinks :laugh:.

Don't forget that heatpipes are empty. :roll:

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: Zap

Originally posted by: seemingly random
Since we're dreaming, I'd like to see the above with no pata or floppy or ps/2 connectors. Seems like this would free up some board real estate for other things. I don't need 6 or 8 sata connectors either.

Well, that would free up PCB to be... empty.

No PS/2, no PATA, fewer than 6 SATA, mATX... I know of a board like that!!! It is a trimmed down Foxconn G33M. I've got one, in my Dell Vostro 200. I think other Dells use the same board. I think it still has floppy though...

Intel DG33TL doesn't have PS/2 or floppy(!) but does have 6 SATA and an EIDE.

I suggest eliminating these connectors since they are legacy - maybe not completely unused yet but almost. I was thinking that these could be eliminated in a redesign or new board design - not a kludge in current designs. Not being a mb designer, maybe I'm attaching too much significance to them. The traces do take up board real estate that could be used for something else or nothing - possibly enabling the board to be reduced in physical size or number of layers.