Micron C400 Benchmarks!!!!

Burner27

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2001
4,452
50
101
Benchmark is up (From Micron's site--not my drive):

AS-SSD C400:





ATTO C400:






C400 CDM:







I am not sure if I should still go with the C400 seeing as how my C300 128GB drive does so well on the 4k:




Maybe I am wrong?
 

Edrick

Golden Member
Feb 18, 2010
1,939
230
106
Glad I bought a C300 last week. I would rather have better 4k performance than sequential anyday.
 

Bauss

Member
Mar 14, 2011
57
0
0
I think I should put my 2 cents in before people lose their collective minds.

This is the same stuff we saw when the Intel 510 benches started coming out. We see a drive that has OK random performance, while making huge strides in sequential performance and we all run for the 4k performance as if it's the only key to a fast drive. I think it's time for a re-evaluation.

Frankly, I think Intel and Crucial know something we don't. I feel like they realized you don't need gobs of random performance on a consumer SSD, in most cases. More often than not, sequential speed is just as (if not more) important.

Now I know this pretty much goes against everything we think we know, but consider this--Why would both Intel and Crucial take a step back in 4k performance and invest more in larger, more sequential performance? Because we don't need it. Applications don't use it. I bet they saw that:

a) Most computer applications have been programmed for DECADES to mask HDD latency by caching tons of crap in memory and using the drive itself for as little as possible.

b) Most computers that have an SSD in them will (by looking at who buys SSDs) have so much RAM in them as well (4GB at least) that our drives never become a bottleneck whilst IN an application.

The first generation of SSDs came with some pretty bad tradeoffs. For one, 4k writes were just as bad, or even worse, than HDDs. It was out of frustration with that generation that people started asking for random 4k performance more fitting for an SSD.

Remember this?
http://www.anandtech.com/show/2614/8

Since then, we've seen iterations on SSD tech by Intel, Samsung, SandForce, Marvell, etc. and for some time now, 4k performance has not only gotten better, but WAY better. It's now 100x better than it originally was in the early days of consumer SSDs.

But people still haven't got the memo that 4k performance now 'good enough' for our needs. I bet that Intel and Crucial found that investing in more 4k performance will only end up hurting larger sequential performance and stopped tuning firmware for it. I don't doubt that's why we're seeing dips in 4k performance, and huge gains in sequential performance. They're, essentially, finding the right balance.

Overall, if you're a consumer, and you're not putting this drive in a server, CHILL OUT. You'll be fine. Just because this drive does 70MB/s on 4k write and not the 200MB/s+ random 4k writes you think you need, doesn't mean it's gonna be as bad as the 0.40MB/s random 4k writes of the first-gen JMicron SSDs. There's a HUGE and TANGIBLE difference between those two numbers.

One last note, more often than not, higher sequential performance and decent random 4k performance will win the day in certain scenarios that consumers should be looking at. I mean look at any Intel 510 review. Look how it beats the C300 and the old Intel G2 9 times out of 10 in file copy and app load tests--The very things that will make our SSD feel VERY quick.

Anyways, I had to get that out, because I'm tired of seeing people rethink good SSD choices because of some false expectation. I'd take a 0.01s longer save time on my MS Word files over a 10s longer movie file transfer any day.
 

sticks435

Senior member
Jun 30, 2008
757
0
0
To add to what Bauss said, Anand himself in the Vertex 3 preview said that more than 20K IOPS was fast enough for consumer workloads in today's usage models.

From the last paragraph on page 1.

The good news is that for most desktop workloads you don’t really benefit from being able to execute more than 20K IOPS, at least in today’s usage models.

Since I mostly surf the web, fold and play games, SEQ speeds are more important to me than random speeds.
 

3xVicious

Member
Feb 11, 2011
35
0
0
To add to what Bauss said, Anand himself in the Vertex 3 preview said that more than 20K IOPS was fast enough for consumer workloads in today's usage models.

From the last paragraph on page 1.



Since I mostly surf the web, fold and play games, SEQ speeds are more important to me than random speeds.

Since I'm building a new system mainly for gaming, and that If I ever do download or save big files in my Spinpoint 1 TB drive, than the SSD that I'd be using to install Windows and my primary games should have better Seq Speeds than Random Reads?
 
May 29, 2010
174
0
71
As I mentioned in another thread, On a P67 chipset MB 6Gb/s Intel port running Vantage HDD suite (which is much more closer to real PC usage than other benchmarks like ATTO/ASSSD/CDM) C400's get in the 60,000 range while C300's on the same setup get in the 45,000 range at best.

I ran this benchmark myself and release C400's shoud do even a tiny bit better since the bootloader firmware I use is a custom for troubleshooting versus release which turns off a lot of this troubleshooting stuff which actually slows the drive down a bit.

Now if I had to choose between the low end 64GB C300 versus the low-end 64GB C400, It would be a much tougher choice (price vs performance), but in any other density, the C400 walks away from the C300 in overall performance.

Also since the c400 and its released firmware is at the beginning of the product life cycle. Subsequent firmware updates ought to make it perform even better. You have to realize that the 1st firmware on a brand new product built on brand new NAND is going to be very conservative. There were some missteps with previous initial offerings of the C300 and C200 series that Micron does not want to repeat.

A new SSD product built on brand new 25nm NAND processes is difficult. I would bet that Intel is also having similar difficulties.
 

sticks435

Senior member
Jun 30, 2008
757
0
0
Since I'm building a new system mainly for gaming, and that If I ever do download or save big files in my Spinpoint 1 TB drive, than the SSD that I'd be using to install Windows and my primary games should have better Seq Speeds than Random Reads?
Yep. Games are something like 70 to 80% SEQ Reads, since your basically just streaming data(usually textures) the entire time. Loading and saving games might be random, but that is usually so fast on a PC anyway, I don't think it matters. I'm not sure about downloading big files, but what I plan to do is download things like installers and such to the SDD, then archive them to the HDD incase I need them again later.
 

Arcadio

Diamond Member
Jun 5, 2007
5,637
24
81
As I mentioned in another thread, On a P67 chipset MB 6Gb/s Intel port running Vantage HDD suite (which is much more closer to real PC usage than other benchmarks like ATTO/ASSSD/CDM) C400's get in the 60,000 range while C300's on the same setup get in the 45,000 range at best.

Link to thread?
 

carnage10

Member
Feb 26, 2010
38
0
0
I think I should put my 2 cents in before people lose their collective minds.

This is the same stuff we saw when the Intel 510 benches started coming out. We see a drive that has OK random performance, while making huge strides in sequential performance and we all run for the 4k performance as if it's the only key to a fast drive. I think it's time for a re-evaluation.

Frankly, I think Intel and Crucial know something we don't. I feel like they realized you don't need gobs of random performance on a consumer SSD, in most cases. More often than not, sequential speed is just as (if not more) important.

Now I know this pretty much goes against everything we think we know, but consider this--Why would both Intel and Crucial take a step back in 4k performance and invest more in larger, more sequential performance? Because we don't need it. Applications don't use it. I bet they saw that:

a) Most computer applications have been programmed for DECADES to mask HDD latency by caching tons of crap in memory and using the drive itself for as little as possible.

b) Most computers that have an SSD in them will (by looking at who buys SSDs) have so much RAM in them as well (4GB at least) that our drives never become a bottleneck whilst IN an application.

The first generation of SSDs came with some pretty bad tradeoffs. For one, 4k writes were just as bad, or even worse, than HDDs. It was out of frustration with that generation that people started asking for random 4k performance more fitting for an SSD.

Remember this?
http://www.anandtech.com/show/2614/8

Since then, we've seen iterations on SSD tech by Intel, Samsung, SandForce, Marvell, etc. and for some time now, 4k performance has not only gotten better, but WAY better. It's now 100x better than it originally was in the early days of consumer SSDs.

But people still haven't got the memo that 4k performance now 'good enough' for our needs. I bet that Intel and Crucial found that investing in more 4k performance will only end up hurting larger sequential performance and stopped tuning firmware for it. I don't doubt that's why we're seeing dips in 4k performance, and huge gains in sequential performance. They're, essentially, finding the right balance.

Overall, if you're a consumer, and you're not putting this drive in a server, CHILL OUT. You'll be fine. Just because this drive does 70MB/s on 4k write and not the 200MB/s+ random 4k writes you think you need, doesn't mean it's gonna be as bad as the 0.40MB/s random 4k writes of the first-gen JMicron SSDs. There's a HUGE and TANGIBLE difference between those two numbers.

One last note, more often than not, higher sequential performance and decent random 4k performance will win the day in certain scenarios that consumers should be looking at. I mean look at any Intel 510 review. Look how it beats the C300 and the old Intel G2 9 times out of 10 in file copy and app load tests--The very things that will make our SSD feel VERY quick.

Anyways, I had to get that out, because I'm tired of seeing people rethink good SSD choices because of some false expectation. I'd take a 0.01s longer save time on my MS Word files over a 10s longer movie file transfer any day.

Well said. It seems like were putting 4k random performance up on a pedestal as the be all end all of everyday SSD performance, much like we did with CPU clock speed in the past. With all the millions of dollars Crucial, Intel, Marvell etc invest in R & D do people really think that they're going to take a step backwards at this stage of the game?

Take a look at the Anand review of the 510, http://www.anandtech.com/show/4202/t...d-510-review/4 which uses the same controller as the c400, and even though the firmware will be different, it still follows the same trend of lower random 4k, higher sequential. It shows the c300 is almost 3 times faster at random 4k write performance (49 mb/s vs 141 mb/s) and almost twice as fast in random read performance, (44 mb/s vs 79 mb/s) yet if you look at the real world "Light Workload" benchmark, the 510 bests the c300 in every benchmark (as well as the Heavy Workload benchmark.) Even the Vertex 3, which has a massive 212 mb/s random 4k write, and a sequential read/write performance advantage, is beaten by the 510 in several heavy and light benchmarks, so pure speed cant be the only factor to consider, obviously firmware plays an important role too.

Maybe 4k random alone is not as important as we thought it was, or we have reached the limits of what it can noticeably give us, as we have already seen massive improvements on 4k random since the first gen SSDs. Maybe it is a combination of different parameters, including firmware that give the best results and now we are starting to find the sweet spot.
Maybe random 4k performance after a certain speed just isnt noticable anymore (eg 50mb/s) For example, if a file is loaded in .02 seconds on one drive, and .01 seconds on a different drive, are you really going to notice which is faster, even though technically its twice as fast? No, your not. So why not put extra focus into areas that will improve performance where you WILL notice it, which is what i think Intel and Crucial are doing.

All im saying is that im sure the guys making these drives know their stuff alot better than we do, so we should'nt put all our eggs in the random 4k performance basket.
 
Last edited:

TonyB

Senior member
May 31, 2001
463
0
0
My biggest complaints about the 510 actually aren't about Intel's use of a 3rd party controller, instead they are about the drive's lackluster random read performance. In a horrible bout of irony Intel fixed its sequential performance and moved backwards in the random department. Random read performance, as it turns out, has a pretty major impact in the real world.

Anand seems to value random read performance, something the C400 and 510 seems behind on.
 

Dadofamunky

Platinum Member
Jan 4, 2005
2,184
0
0
I think I should put my 2 cents in before people lose their collective minds.

This is the same stuff we saw when the Intel 510 benches started coming out. We see a drive that has OK random performance, while making huge strides in sequential performance and we all run for the 4k performance as if it's the only key to a fast drive. I think it's time for a re-evaluation.

Frankly, I think Intel and Crucial know something we don't. I feel like they realized you don't need gobs of random performance on a consumer SSD, in most cases. More often than not, sequential speed is just as (if not more) important.
<snip>

In my (somewhat) limited professional experience in this area, this is 100% accurate.

Also, IMHO, the diffs between a C300 and a new C400 are going to be fairly close to imperceptible. I love my C300. If you can get the C400 equivalent for similar pricing, just go for it.
 

AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
14,003
3,362
136
I'd take a 0.01s longer save time on my MS Word files over a 10s longer movie file transfer any day.

99&#37; of users will have mechanical drives for storage so the transfer bandwidth will be limited by the mechanical drive making your higher SSD sequential read/write not usable when transferring big files.

On the other hand, every day usage in windows will benefit from Random reads/writes so Random R/W is essential and i would prefer to have higher Random R/W in the SSD than Sequential R/W.

From anands article
http://www.anandtech.com/show/2738/16

I&#8217;d argue that if you&#8217;re a desktop user and you&#8217;re using an SSD as a boot/application drive, what will matter most is latency. After you&#8217;ve got your machine setup the way you want it, the majority of accesses are going to be sequential reads and random reads/writes of very small file sizes. Things like updating file tables, scanning individual files for viruses, writing your web browser cache. What influences these tasks is latency, not bandwidth.

If you were constantly moving large multi-gigabyte files to and from your disk then total bandwidth would be more important. SSDs are still fairly limited in size and I don&#8217;t think you&#8217;ll be backing up many Blu-ray discs to them given their high cost per GB. It&#8217;s latency that matters here.
 

ksec

Senior member
Mar 5, 2010
420
117
116
I wrote a long write up in one of the SSD review comment. Basically our initial assumption were wrong. We thought at certain stage, Seq RW will be so fast that brings no benefits to our everyday computing speed and we will need to improve on Random RW. It turns out it was vice versa.

Random Write, Anything more then 40 - 50MB/s at 4K will bring you tangible benefits. ( &#37; of Total Gain in Measured Performance )
Random Read - We haven't even reach the limit with 4K 100MB/s, so the more the better. ( For now )

Seq RW Still brings large % performance improvement with each increase.
 

Old Hippie

Diamond Member
Oct 8, 2005
6,361
1
0
Pretty interesting.

This change of thinking must be the reason why the C300s have a better final ASSSD score than the C400s.
 

Rekonn

Senior member
May 9, 2000
384
0
76
The C400 is nice, but I was hoping the drive released a year after the C300 would have significant performance improvements in all categories, not tradeoffs. I think the initial negative reaction is due to the C400 not meeting expectations/hype.
 

Edrick

Golden Member
Feb 18, 2010
1,939
230
106
I am still going with the C300. It has 34nm NAND and a mature, issue free firmware.

The C400 may have firmware issues at first (to be expected) and a lower life due to 25nm NAND. It is not that mush faster (if at all) to trade stability for.

Just my opinion anyways.
 

semo

Senior member
Dec 24, 2004
292
0
0
There's too many people talking about "real world". In my real world, I run a couple of VMs for testing. I need the 4k random I/O as this lets me do testing quicker. Real world for the average office user is completely different and a first gen SF drive will probably suffice.

I knew that Intel will kick it down a gear once they get some good rep and market share. However, I did expected something different from Micron. I think I will have to bite the bullet and go for SF 2xxx and try not to fall for their firmware games (I'm not going with OCZ because of their deceptive selling tactics)
 

Burner27

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2001
4,452
50
101
AS-SSD C400:





AS-SSD C300:





Just saying......a 128GB C300 is scoring better than a 256GB C400?
 
Last edited:

Edrick

Golden Member
Feb 18, 2010
1,939
230
106
The C400 is clearly a better drive when it comes to writes. But for the SSD users who have the drive just for a boot/application drive, writes are far less important.

But you are also comparing the 256GB C400 with the 128GB C300. The numbers could be off as well.
 

Old Hippie

Diamond Member
Oct 8, 2005
6,361
1
0
I am still going with the C300. It has 34nm NAND and a mature, issue free firmware.

I'm seconding that emotion.

The 256GB drives are on Ebay for 400.00.

I'm gonna try and hold out for 350.00....but ya just never know.
 

Bauss

Member
Mar 14, 2011
57
0
0
There's too many people talking about "real world". In my real world, I run a couple of VMs for testing. I need the 4k random I/O as this lets me do testing quicker. Real world for the average office user is completely different and a first gen SF drive will probably suffice.

I knew that Intel will kick it down a gear once they get some good rep and market share. However, I did expected something different from Micron. I think I will have to bite the bullet and go for SF 2xxx and try not to fall for their firmware games (I'm not going with OCZ because of their deceptive selling tactics)

I don't I can further stress how massively parallel modern SSDs can be. We're talking 1000s of I/O ops per second. tens of thousands in some models. Enough to open every app on your computer and your VMs within seconds. Where SDDs shine the most is in multitasking environments so I doubt you'll ever see a difference in any SSD released in the past year. Nobody really will. Not with random 4k I/O that is.

In addition, VMs run OSs. OSs are designed in such a way that they try, as hard as they possible can, to cache whatever it thinks you need in RAM as opposed to the OS. This is because RAM still runs ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE faster than just about any non-volatile storage, including SSDs. That being said, If you really want to improve VM performance, get the largest semi-modern (SandForce and after) SSD you can afford, then put as much RAM as you can into your machine. No point waiting for an SSD that'll be 50&#37; faster than the last SSD you had, yet over a thousand times the latency of RAM.

You're work sounds kind of important, so If I were you, I'd focus on stability, maturity, and reliability over raw performance. If you're working with multiple VMs and whatnot, wouldn't an Intel be the best choice? I mean they've certainly got the best reputation for reliability due to their testing and validation.

I'd also look at the C300 since most of it's bugs have been ironed out and you can get them for not too much money these days...
 

Bauss

Member
Mar 14, 2011
57
0
0
I'm seconding that emotion.

The 256GB drives are on Ebay for 400.00.

I'm gonna try and hold out for 350.00....but ya just never know.

Agreed. I think that the C300 is the better choice right now, but not because it does well in synthetics benches.

I'd choose it because it's presumably going to be cheaper, as well as more mature in terms of firmware.
 
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