"Microsoft accused of Windows 10 upgrade 'nasty trick'" from BBC, UPDATED

[mikeymikec]

I never said the "Can and Should whatever they like". Reading is fundamental.

Yes, reading is fundamental, and you applied emphasis on this bit:

"the operating system that they paid for but don't own."

This time you applied emphasis on a different bit of what I said, here:

Originally Posted by mikeymikec View Post
What does it matter? He thinks that MS can and should do whatever they like.

If you want to use emphasis to point at the specific bit you're responding to, it helps to apply the emphasis in the correct place, as there were at least two points that you might have been responding to. So, now we have your communication issue out of the way, let's rewind and try to get you to elaborate on your opinion.

Your argument has been two-fold:

1) Users who click without reading messages are stupid (inference: this situation is entirely the user's fault).

2) The end user has a licence, they do not own the product, and, your words: "Microsoft can update the software any way they like". These points combined constitute a very broad statement that is open to many logical interpretations.

I've already stated my opinion on point 1 here, the crux of which (wrt "strategy", implies intent) which you appear to have ignored because you prefer your perspective. Fine, moving on.

With regard to point 2 and your apparent disapproval of how I have interpreted your opinion, if MS can "update the software any way they like": I'm wondering whether this licence business you keep going on about is actually irrelevant to your overall opinion, because by including it, it is logical for one to infer that MS have the right to do what they want on your computer due to the licence agreement that they got the user to agree to when the OS was first booted, and since the user doesn't actually own it, they have less rights regarding it.

Perhaps you would like to elaborate on this point? Because it seems utterly pointless for me to try and interpret what you said only for you to say, "that's not what I said".

The specifics that I would like you to elaborate on are (though if you can be as explicit as possible regarding your overall opinion, that would be great):

If "MS can update the software any way they like", then what do you think the limitations of such a notion ought to be?

Is your mentioning of licencing actually relevant? If so, how?

Here is my perspective:

MS initially created an irritating app that popped up in the middle of peoples' work to say "would you like to upgrade to Windows 10?". Clicking the X made the message go away without any repercussions.

MS then modified the irritating app's "tray pop-up message" (ie. the miniature notification, not the full-blown window). It looked very similar to the old one (so users thought it was the same one as before), but exploited the fact that many (most?) users don't read messages as consent because they didn't go out of their way to explicitly say no to the upgrade. I think this is wrong. I think that if MS wanted to "up the ante" and try harder to get users to upgrade, then the whole style of the message (colour scheme as well, turn it red and use alarming warning triangles and exclamation marks) should have been altered, and perhaps get rid of the X in the corner altogether if MS want an actual answer on this point, as well as an easy-to-find but comprehensive option that opts the user out of the upgrade altogether. A user should have had to have clicked "yes / agree", then scroll down a licence agreement, agree again, then the upgrade starts. I think an MS Office installation actually requires more explicit consent than this Windows upgrade did, even though the MSO installation would have already been paid for (ie. lots of explicit consent happening beforehand) before getting to those explicit "I agree" options!

The crux of my point is that I think MS was no longer interested in getting consent from users to upgrade Windows, their interest was to boost the adoption figures for Windows 10, and get as many potential users onboard to their "Windows as a service" business model.

 

[nerp]

And Paul is full of crap. Clicking the Red X box closes the window, period.

The notification box tells you the upgrade is scheduled and when and even gives you an opportunity to cancel it or reschedule it.

If you cannot read then life must truly suck for you.

Actually, for a few days, closing the X did not cancel the upgrade. That is why there was a surge in crying recently. MS switched it back to cancelling yesterday after the outrage.

 

[SparkyJJO]

Admit it, Microsoft is a big evil company bent on stealing all your personal data so they can blackmail you for something or other that you don't know what it is yet but trust me they will do it because they are evil.

Right?

 

[sweenish]

Actually, for a few days, closing the X did not cancel the upgrade. That is why there was a surge in crying recently. MS switched it back to cancelling yesterday after the outrage.

Still not getting it.

The X closes the window, and that's it. It's not asking to do something, where the X would not do it if clicked. It's telling you a thing is going to happen, and the X just closes the window.

This is not rocket science.

 

[Elixer]

Some of you are just not comprehending what went on.

Normally, if you click on the red X or hit alt+F4, that means close / cancel.

In this case, and for a SHORT period of time, clicking on the red X or hitting alt+f4 meant Yes / OK, and NOT close/cancel.

Yes, MS broke their own design rules by doing that stunt.
https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dn742499(v=vs.85).aspx

The Close button on the title bar should have the same effect as the Cancel or Close button within the dialog box. Never give it the same effect as OK.

Got it? Good.

 

[quikah]

Some of you are just not comprehending what went on.

Normally, if you click on the red X or hit alt+F4, that means close / cancel.

In this case, and for a SHORT period of time, clicking on the red X or hitting alt+f4 meant Yes / OK, and NOT close/cancel.

Yes, MS broke their own design rules by doing that stunt.
https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dn742499(v=vs.85).aspx


Got it? Good.

Not exactly:

"The Close button on the title bar should have the same effect as the Cancel or Close button within the dialog box. Never give it the same effect as OK."

There is no Cancel or close button in the dialog so what it means is pretty ambiguous.

They should really redo it with a simple "Schedule Upgrade" or "I Don't Want to Upgrade" buttons.

 

[Executioner]

Updategate: Microsoft climbs down from deceitful Windows 10 ruse

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer...ft-climbs-down-from-deceitful-windows-10-ruse

 

[nerp]

Still not getting it.

The X closes the window, and that's it. It's not asking to do something, where the X would not do it if clicked. It's telling you a thing is going to happen, and the X just closes the window.

This is not rocket science.

The thing is this behavior was new and came after people were trained to click the X to cancel the upgrade. You can't look at the boxes before and after and say they weren't using deceptive techniques. Even their decision to abruptly change the switch after the outcry constitutes admission on their part they went too far. And I have been the staunchest defender of MS on these forums for months by far.

 

[TheRyuu]

This is why you disable upgrades through gpedit/registry and not uninstalling the updates.

If you properly disable Windows 10 notifications you will NEVER see Windows 10 upgrade stuff in Windows Update and GWX will never run.

All that being said I do recommend giving 10 a shot although I would also recommend doing so through a clean install (your 7/8/8.1 key will work on a 10 installer).

 

[pcgeek11]

I'm done.

I have determined that most people and even many on a technical forum are too stupid to read a dialog box before clicking something.

I do feel sorry for you guys however.

Enjoy your many surprises in your computing life as you randomly click on pop-up boxes.

Evil old Microsoft is going to get you and your children!

 

[C1]

I have long since given up willingness to spend time analyzing pop-up boxes (and which seem to be becoming more frequent with time).

I consider each & any of them malware and kill them from task manager.

I see now that the local public libraries, even with all their city funded IT resources & filters in place, are getting Win 10 upgrade notifications presented on their supposedly protected systems/networks.

 

[pcgeek11]

A few minor edits on my dedicated Windows 8.1 PC and I haven't seen any pop-up boxes or Windows 10...

You guys ain't doing it right obviously.

 

[Papa]

I work at a coffee roasting facility. We run laptops that are connected to our roasters. The cloud-based program we run records each roast (temps, time air flow, etc). Each morning I go in the roasting room, turn on the laptops, & go out to the production floor to set things up for the day.

I've been getting that pop-up for a while now when I turn on the laptops. I just hit the 'x' and walk away. A few days ago, after doing the exact same thing I always do, I came back in the roasting room to start roasting for the day & the laptop was installing Windows 10! I thought "Oh no,what did I do?". After close to 1/2 hour, it was only at 4%, so I had to disconnect the laptop from the roaster & not use it for the day. When my boss found out, I had to explain that I must've hit 'install', even though I was certain that I hadn't.

That was a dirty trick, Microsoft. A dirty trick. You almost got me fired.

 

[nerp]

A few minor edits on my dedicated Windows 8.1 PC and I haven't seen any pop-up boxes or Windows 10...

You guys ain't doing it right obviously.

There are hundreds of millions of computer users. Not all of them have the time, desire or inclination to be tech oriented like you. You remind me of HVAC guys making fun of some woman for not knowing how to repair her compressor. Makes a lot of sense for HVAC guys but totally misguided and ignorant of the marketplace.

 

[BarkingGhostar]

Yeah, they changed what that means...via the last update.

That is pretty lame MS, stop trying to force it down everyone's throat if they don't want it.

In Soviet Amerika, you don't buy Windows, Windows buys you.

 

[pcgeek11]

There are hundreds of millions of computer users. Not all of them have the time, desire or inclination to be tech oriented like you. You remind me of HVAC guys making fun of some woman for not knowing how to repair her compressor. Makes a lot of sense for HVAC guys but totally misguided and ignorant of the marketplace.

This is in a Technical Forum for Operating Systems. I assume people participating in this forum would have a clue.

Your post justifies my opinion. Thanks!

If I was an illiterate computer user I would make sure that I read every pop up. I was at one time and I did.

 

[KeithP]

I think people are missing the major benefit to Windows 10…it is helping to point out a lot of people that think they understand technology really don't understand it all.

-KeithP

 

[Ketchup]

Some of you remind me of Craigslist buyers: if they see something for free they won't touch it. If the seller puts a $5 price tag on it, the phone won't stop ringing.

Microsoft: if you had put a little price on your new OS, I doubt if anybody would complain.

 

[Underclocked]

Cousin called me last night in a panic. His Win 7 laptop was scheduled to be upgraded to Win 10 on Thursday of this week. It took considerable time on the phone with him to stop the upgrade from happening. Shouldn't be that involved.

 

[mikeymikec]

nvm

 

[BarkingGhostar]

This is in a Technical Forum for Operating Systems. I assume people participating in this forum would have a clue.

Your post justifies my opinion. Thanks!

If I was an illiterate computer user I would make sure that I read every pop up. I was at one time and I did.

Having a clue and having the correct clue are different. And some come here because they are trying to get the clue--its called learning. I'm sure you are the anomaly and always had the clue and never needed to come here to learn.

 

[nerp]

This is in a Technical Forum for Operating Systems. I assume people participating in this forum would have a clue.

Your post justifies my opinion. Thanks!

If I was an illiterate computer user I would make sure that I read every pop up. I was at one time and I did.

We were talking about the outcry from regular computer users whose computers were upgraded without them realizing it would happen. The reason why there was outrage and the subsequent acknowledgement from MS that the latest change to the dialog box was heavy handed has been discussed. You can resort to childish arrogance, but it doesn't mean the conversation didn't go over your head.

 

[pcgeek11]

We were talking about the outcry from regular computer users whose computers were upgraded without them realizing it would happen. The reason why there was outrage and the subsequent acknowledgement from MS that the latest change to the dialog box was heavy handed has been discussed. You can resort to childish arrogance, but it doesn't mean the conversation didn't go over your head.

Not over my head at all. But you are entitled to your own opinion.

 

[86waterpumper]

A good many people in this thread don't get it at all. Of course all of us read dialog boxes and pay attention to our computers and are nerds. The problem is that 99 percent of those using windows do not, especially older non tech savvy people and work computers where a user does not have time to read pop ups. Both of these cases have already been mentioned in this exact thread. I would go as far as to say if a younger kid saw the popup come up they would not bother to read it either. This is what Microsoft was banking on. My parents are older and they live a state away. I am just like the other poster in this thread my time on their system is very limited. It is not that I never wanted them to try win10, but them upgrading to it while I was not there was in fact the very last thing I wanted. Now I have to dig in and make sure that all the settings are set properly. They have satellite internet with limited bandwidth, so now their computer can act as a server for other people updating wow that is brilliant. (I did help my mom find the setting to cut this off but it was on by default) In the end, I hope the strongarm tactics don't work for them. We are seeing that they didn't in the case of the cable companies and other people that followed the same methods. My parents have already said they won't be buying another computer with microsoft on it. There are going to be more and more people who decide this after these shenanigans.

 

[SparkyJJO]

What it boils down to is this:

People are TOO FRICKIN LAZY to read a box that says EXACTLY what is going to happen, and then complain and blame the company of "tricks" when it does exactly what it said it would do.

Brilliant. Just brilliant.

People need to slow down and pay attention to what is going on in front of them. Not just with the computer but everything else too!