Microsoft and Sony could be ‘hostile’ to AMD’s Mantle API, Carmack says

[Arkadrel]

@Arkadrel, there is a huge catch here, his cpu is not overclocked.What happens when he overclocks his cpu?

Then he's able to handle more draw calls, without as big a loss in fps as with his stock cpu.

But you have to realise alot of people game on a PC that has a CPU weaker than a i5 2500k,
and alot of people dont overclock.

I think the benefits of Mantle will be more evident on the lower end PCs than on the higher end ones.

 

[GaiaHunter]

That is now how it works. It is a low level API that grants you access. You still need either a high level API or your own custom code to perform any meaningful actions before having it access Mantle. So, it can't just 'automatically work'. You either have to code for it (and code for DX if you want to use non Mantle hardware) or it won't have any effect.

The problem is, the high level API stuff you write could be faster than DX (because DX has a large stack you have to go through) but it could end up being slower as well. It all depends on how it is implemented.

If the engines provide a high level API for access to the Mantle stuff, performance is dependent on the engine makers for the most part. But, does this split in development resources (a DX team and a Mantle team) get justified by virtually no returns in investment (would consumers who have a Mantle card not buy the game if it didn't have Mantle specific optimizations? probably not).

AMD is going to really have to pay developers to use this, and hope in a few years time, there is enough games out there to perhaps sway a consume to buy an AMD card because the Mantle enabled games will run better.

For multiplatform titles using those engines it is.

Developers will optimize for consoles and with the wrapper added to the engines like Frostbite, UE4 and Cryengine (if these two get onboard), they can just use the optimizations they used for the console with mantle. The mantle driver will take care of the differences between hardware like different ram size.

 

[smackababy]

For multiplatform titles using those engines it is.

Developers will optimize for consoles and with the wrapper added to the engines like Frostbite, UE4 and Cryengine (if these two get onboard), they can just use the optimizations they used for the console with mantle. The mantle driver will take care of the differences between hardware like different ram size.

I am not sure you understand what I'm saying, or I don't understand what you're saying. The Mantle driver doesn't matter. In order to access the low level API of Mantle, you have to completely bypass Direct X and either use a different processing API or write your own. So, any game that doesn't use Mantle will need to have a way to access the metal of the graphics cards, thus something like Direct X will be required.

The DX stack is a bit large and skipping some of the steps would give some performance benefits, but only if the code written that does that is faster than DX already is. Even if an engine has pathways for Mantle, unless they have the high level stuff coded in, it will be entirely up to the developers. Let's say Frostbite includes all the Mantle API along with their own processing AND DX paths. So, the game is sets a Mantle flag at the start, and depending on that flag either uses DICE's own processing into Mantle or DX processing.

At what point is it more expensive to add all that additional coding to maybe increase performance in a marketplace? Developers gain little from segmenting people without AMD cards. If they release a game (in a fairy tale world) that runs a 60FPS on a 7870 and 30FPS on a Titan, they are losing nearly half of the market. Nobody with a 780 is going to buy that game. They then have to devote resources to the current standard to make DX perform well that anyone without Mantle can use it. The entire Mantle portion is rather useless at that point. Why waste the extra resources on that when you can just put more into DX development that you'd likely have to do anyway.

AMD is going to have to offset the cost with either their programmers or their money. Can they really afford that?

 

[GaiaHunter]

What I'm saying is that games are already being optimized differently for consoles.
Or do you think consoles games optimizations are the same as the PC games?

Generally these CONSOLE OPTIMIZATIONS would go to waste because different architectures.

BUT NOW you have optimizations done for AMD HARDWARE in THE CONSOLES.
Right?

They would still go to waste because the game has to be PORTED TO DX.

BUT enter MANTLE.

NOW developers can REuse the OPTIMIZATIONS via Mantle because it is the same AMD ARCHITECTURE in the PC.

So get a mantle WRAPPER in the engine that uses the same language that THE CONSOLES LOW LEVEL API USE (AMD know what language the consoles use since its their hardware the low level API is accessing) and you can use that code.

Of course number of radeon cores, ram size, speed, etc, are also important for low level access to work.

That is why there is a mantle driver to take care of that.

See?

Mantle API that allows code of consoles to be used in the PC and then driver to handle the hardware difference between all the different AMD graphic cards.

People need to understand that the CONSOLES are using AMD ARCHITECTURE.

People need to understand DEVELOPERS do OPTIMIZE via low level APIs for consoles since consoles specs are lower.

It isn't adding code, is reusing code. the only code that needs to be added is the wrapper and that is just a fraction of development.

And if once an ENGINE has the wrapper, all the games using that engine that are optimized for consoles (consoles that use GCN architecture) can reuse the optimizations for the PC - minimum costs.

And people creating engines to license have all the interest into adding wrappers to their engines (they already add wrappers for DX, OpenGL, Xbox, PS4, etc, and now they will add mantle).

 

[BrightCandle]

Typically games use in the order of 100 draw calls a frame by the way. Just to put the figures above into perspective.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

I believe we are forgetting the sleeping giant here, Intel.They already have a world class compiler, they just need to persuade the devs to use some newer instructions(which I believe they can do better than anybody else). Now if Intel is at all interested in pc gaming is another mater entirely.I was pleasantly surprised to see Total War Rome 2 as a Intel sponsored game.

Pity it runs like donkey..

Which is weird, because comparing it with Shogun 2.. I noticed Rome 2 has much better or higher cpu utilization in all things. Loading for instance S2 uses only 1 thread, whereas Rome will use at least two for me (fully).

Same thing in campaign/battlefield, S2 continually has lower usage, but it runs at a higher FPS.

I think CA went buck wild with animations, or maybe not I can't say for sure but what I can say is Rome uses more cpu for less performance, Shogun 2 uses less CPU which results in longer load times, but it can produce more FPS with less usage at the same time.

Empire was Intel, Shogun 2 was AMD, Rome 2 is Intel... Not sure what Napoleon was...

Either way would have really liked to see support for AVX/2/FMA3 instead of just additional graphics features... But I heard the game runs well on the HD4600 at the same time.

 

[cmdrdredd]

You very well could be right, but what those 5-10 title are could be ALL the difference.

Imgaine if BF4, CoD, and 3-7 more BIG AAA title get this, vs. 5-10 smaller titles. Mega-games are defining the profits of gaming companies lately, and they directly drive GPU purchases on the PC market. Get Mantle in the RIGHT games, and it could be huge. If it ends-up like Physx titles, then it will just disappear.

Witcher devs CDProjekt isn't using it, neither is ubisoft for watch dogs and their game the division, the devs behind titanfall aren't using it, japanese developers like konami and capcom aren't using it. I could go on and on. It's one developer from a studio people love to hate.

 

[cmdrdredd]

And all of those developers have GCN as their main target starting in November. They all want to make money, so they will be targeting multiplatform releases. They all want their game engines to perform the best they possibly can.

1. EA has 15+ games coming on Frostbite for next gen consoles.

2. UE4 is squarely in nvidia's camp, but what happens when no one licenses it because being squarely in Nvidia's camp as you say they optimize for Nvidia hardware only? Oh right, that will never freaking happen because they are forced into targeting GCN gpu's by default due to the consoles. When 100's of studios are screaming at Epic for the ability to easily move their code back and forth across PS4, Xbone, and PC they will have to capitulate. Can nvidia afford to buy their loyalty in comparison to the amount of money they receive for engine licensing?

3. Crytek is published by EA, see #1.

4. Valve has stated that they are working with multiple partners on linux. AMD says mantle will work in linux. Mantle is announced the same week as Steam OS. Valve wants to end Windows gaming and DX reliance, and lucky for them AMD has done just that, and made it compatible for Consoles, and PC's. Did Valve release any games on console last gen, I can't remember?

I just shot down 100% of what you said.

Yes it will be a lot of marketing, but the market is GCN because of the consoles. Gamer population is exploding more and more every year. Combined the xbox 360 and PS3 sold more that 150 million units. I fully expect this generation to outsell the previous. PS4 selling at $400 at launch is going to cause an explosion of early adopters. Coupled with rumblings that China may allow consoles across their borders and there is the potential for a metric F-ton of consoles packing GCN to be sold.

1) EA is the most hated publisher out there.
2) UE3 was the most widely used game engine of the past generation. UE4 will likely continue that because they have top tier support for the developers licensing it.
3) crytek makes nice looking games that run poorly and are boring. I sorta enjoyed Crysis 3 but I must admit it was a boring story, boring gunplay etc. I just liked the powers of the suit.
4) Value wants OpenGL because it's open. They are using Linux cause it's open. They do not want locked hardware and locked software. That limits their audience.

so...yeah you're just wrong and for the record Consoles are not PC gaming machines. So it doesn't matter what hardware is in a PS4. Developers who don't do PC STILL won't touch the PC.

 

[Kenmitch]

I doubt AMD all of a sudden pulled Mantle out of their arse. Most likely it's somewhat mentioned/covered/hidden in both Microsoft's and Sony's contracts. For all we know both api's currently being used are derived from Mantle already.

Both Sony and Microsoft could milk Mantle in future AMD GCN products. It's all about money in the end.

 

[cmdrdredd]

I doubt AMD all of a sudden pulled Mantle out of their arse. Most likely it's somewhat mentioned/covered/hidden in both Microsoft's and Sony's contracts. For all we know both api's currently being used are derived from Mantle already.

We know that Microsoft has said they are using DX11+ so that shoots it down right there. Sony built the API for PS4 themselves with help from developer input on what they want to see in the software.

 

[SiliconWars]

1) EA is the most hated publisher out there.

EA is also the most loved publisher out there - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_publisher#Selected_video_game_publishers

While I'm sure both points are total BS, at least I had a link.

for the record Consoles are not PC gaming machines. So it doesn't matter what hardware is in a PS4. Developers who don't do PC STILL won't touch the PC.

There's no reason not to when it's easy. We're not talking about porting from Cell to x86, we're talking about elementary stuff that AMD has handed to them on a plate. You have to understand the depth of this to truly appreciate the magnitude of what AMD has accomplished. This is *incredible* already, even if it ultimately fails.

 

[cmdrdredd]

EA is also the most loved publisher out there - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_publisher#Selected_video_game_publishers

While I'm sure both points are total BS, at least I had a link.



There's no reason not to when it's easy. We're not talking about porting from Cell to x86, we're talking about elementary stuff that AMD has handed to them on a plate. You have to understand the depth of this to truly appreciate the magnitude of what AMD has accomplished. This is *incredible* already, even if it ultimately fails.

There's reason not to. They think all PC gamers are pirates and never buy $60 games they wait for sales and buy it at $20 and they make no money that way. Many developers have not and will not make games for PC. You either learn to deal with it or you buy a console.

EA is voted #1 worst company in history 2 years in a row http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/10/electronic-arts-worst-company-consumerist_n_3052000.html
http://consumerist.com/2013/04/09/e...-history-wins-title-for-second-year-in-a-row/

Simple google search pulls up countless forum threads about why EA sucks and people hate them. Even on this very forum people refuse to buy EA games.

 

[SiliconWars]

I know EA sucks, but there are millions who think they rule. Same reason I know Nvidia sucks but millions think they rule.

There is no difference to me. Understand I'm not trying to pretend certain companies are better than they actually are. I hope MS, EA and the rest of their ilk all fail eventually, but right now it's in my interest and the interest of the consumer for Nvidia to suffer a few years of AMD's losses.

 

[96Firebird]

...but right now it's in my interest and the interest of the consumer for Nvidia to suffer a few years of AMD's losses.

Now I understand all your posts, you have something personal against Nvidia. This explains a lot. Big on you for letting it be known, but now I can ignore most of your nonsense. :thumbsup:

 

[SiliconWars]

Now I understand all your posts, you have something personal against Nvidia. This explains a lot. Big on you for letting it be known, but now I can ignore most of your nonsense. :thumbsup:

I have nothing personal against Nvidia but I know how they operate and I know that it is in the interest of the consumer if they are taken down a few pegs.

AMD just happens to be a far superior company in every way - except for having the money that brainwashes the average Nvidia fan into believing otherwise.

This moment was inevitable. I always knew that AMD's inherent technological superiority would tell over marketing in the end. There was only ever one company likely to slam dunk win with a knockout blow like this, and it was AMD.

 

[smackababy]

I have nothing personal against Nvidia but I know how they operate and I know that it is in the interest of the consumer if they are taken down a few pegs.

AMD just happens to be a far superior company in every way except for having the money that brainwashes the average Nvidia fan into believing otherwise. This moment was inevitable. I always knew that AMD's inherent technological superiority would tell over marketing in the end.

Far superior in what way exactly? Their CPUs aren't superior to Intels and their graphics are competitive to Nvidias in terms of performance. They have to resort to a lot of undercutting price wise to gain marketshare. Is that what makes them superior?

What is in the best interest of the consumer is Nvidia and AMD being dead even in performance and price and having to innovate and fight tooth and nail for the consumer dollar; something neither of which has to or does.

 

[SiliconWars]

What is in the best interest of the consumer is Nvidia and AMD being dead even in performance and price and having to innovate and fight tooth and nail for the consumer dollar; something neither of which has to or does.

Right, and $1K Titans are the proof aren't they? :\

 

[smackababy]

Right, and $1K Titans are the proof aren't they? :\

A piece of hardware nobody can beat? Are you suggesting the Titan was overpriced? I'm sure you think a Ferrari should only cost $30k because the average consumer could buy them too right?

The Titan was priced, with zero competition, at what the market would pay for it. And guess what? AMD still can't compete against the Titan how many months later?

Yeah, clearly AMD is technologically superior...

 

[VulgarDisplay]

There's reason not to. They think all PC gamers are pirates and never buy $60 games they wait for sales and buy it at $20 and they make no money that way. Many developers have not and will not make games for PC. You either learn to deal with it or you buy a console.

EA is voted #1 worst company in history 2 years in a row http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/10/electronic-arts-worst-company-consumerist_n_3052000.html
http://consumerist.com/2013/04/09/e...-history-wins-title-for-second-year-in-a-row/

Simple google search pulls up countless forum threads about why EA sucks and people hate them. Even on this very forum people refuse to buy EA games.

The thing about ea that is going to start changing perceptions very soon is that their games are on average better than their competition as of late. I play more ea published games right now than any other publisher's. Enter titanfall under ea and the hate wagon will continue to erode.

EA has changed for the better lately and no one has noticed.

 

[SiliconWars]

A piece of hardware nobody can beat? Are you suggesting the Titan was overpriced? I'm sure you think a Ferrari should only cost $30k because the average consumer could buy them too right?

The Titan was priced, with zero competition, at what the market would pay for it. And guess what? AMD still can't compete against the Titan how many months later?

Yeah, clearly AMD is technologically superior...

The 7990 owns Titan and the only thing that links them is that most of their owners have more money than sense! If you think that Titan makes Nvidia technologically superior then...you just don't understand - like most Nvidia fans I guess.

AMD is the innovator. AMD is the company who does more for gamers while having less marketing dollars to throw around. AMD withstood the full might of Intel's assault after beating them fair and square, then they withstood the combined might of Intel and Nvidia at the same time for years.

Do you actually believe Nvidia ever stood a chance against that alone? Really? If so you just do not realise just how incredible a *tech* company AMD is, and how Nvidia never stood a chance.

AMD *beat* Intel fair and square, jig? You think tiny, insignificant Nvidia stood a chance after AMD got their act together again? This was never in doubt. Nvidia were always destined to fail against AMD's technological superiority as soon as Intel stopped helping out.

 

[Dresdenboy]

Good luck getting developers on board to develop their games for DX and Mantle. Most of them will be hostile and refer to DX due to its already improved over so many years and will offer the performance that is there in the hardware.

Mantle uses a shader language similar to the DX HLSL. This should help to convince some devs. A key is to get the most often used engines to support Mantle.

John Carmack won't use Mantle for Oculus Rift.

 

[cmdrdredd]

The thing about ea that is going to start changing perceptions very soon is that their games are on average better than their competition as of late. I play more ea published games right now than any other publisher's. Enter titanfall under ea and the hate wagon will continue to erode.

EA has changed for the better lately and no one has noticed.

Keep thinking that but EA will continue to ride the suck wagon

 

[smackababy]

The 7990 owns Titan and the only thing that links them is that most of their owners have more money than sense! If you think that Titan makes Nvidia technologically superior then...you just don't understand - like most Nvidia fans I guess.

AMD is the innovator. AMD is the company who does more for gamers while having less marketing dollars to throw around. AMD withstood the full might of Intel's assault after beating them fair and square, then they withstood the combined might of Intel and Nvidia at the same time for years.

Do you actually believe Nvidia ever stood a chance against that alone? Really? If so you just do not realise just how incredible a *tech* company AMD is, and how Nvidia never stood a chance.

AMD *beat* Intel fair and square, jig? You think tiny, insignicant Nvidia stood a chance after AMD got their act together again? This was never in doubt. Nvidia were always destined to fail against AMD's technological superiority as soon as Intel stopped helping out.

7990 is a dual card. Single GPU still belongs to Nvidia. Go ahead and argue more about it though, I don't care.

When exactly did AMD beat Intel fair and square? Last time I checked, Intel 'conroe'd' AMD and AMD hasn't had a solution that has beaten Intel in forever.

It is rather funny you are so angry though. Continue to believe AMD is the company for that love their fanboys though.

Oh, please post the AMD propaganda... I mean marketing slides again abotu Mantle. I'd love to read how Mantle does 9x the draw calls in some unspecified benchmark without any performance stats about it.

 

[Spjut]

Keep thinking that but EA will continue to ride the suck wagon

And yet, EA has lots of franchises under the belt that still have great sales

 

[ICDP]

The 7990 owns Titan and the only thing that links them is that most of their owners have more money than sense! If you think that Titan makes Nvidia technologically superior then...you just don't understand - like most Nvidia fans I guess.

AMD is the innovator. AMD is the company who does more for gamers while having less marketing dollars to throw around. AMD withstood the full might of Intel's assault after beating them fair and square, then they withstood the combined might of Intel and Nvidia at the same time for years.

Do you actually believe Nvidia ever stood a chance against that alone? Really? If so you just do not realise just how incredible a *tech* company AMD is, and how Nvidia never stood a chance.

AMD *beat* Intel fair and square, jig? You think tiny, insignificant Nvidia stood a chance after AMD got their act together again? This was never in doubt. Nvidia were always destined to fail against AMD's technological superiority as soon as Intel stopped helping out.

Oh dear.