Microsoft DX12 GDC 2015

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ocre

Golden Member
Dec 26, 2008
1,594
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I hope DX12 crashes and burns so that Vulkan can take the spotlight for the next decade. As consumers we don't need Microsoft and their platform locking tactics since Vulkan, being improvement on Mantle, should be just as capable and familiar to devs as DX12. DX needs to die.

Would be good if Vulkan beat out DX, but if msft gets up against it, they can bring a lot of resources to bare. They can basically buy the gaming market if needed. You think nVidia and AMD can throw money at devs? Imagine what msft can do?

IMO the only reason everyone is getting free upgrades to Win10 is because of Mantle and Vulkan. If people could get the latest API without having to buy a new OS from msft, nobody would buy Win10 anyway. I know I'd be all over Linux if every game that was available in DX12 was also available on Linux. I doubt msft will let this happen.

So are we gonna turn this into a "death to Microsoft" thread?

The assertion that the only reason M$ is giving free upgrades to win10 is because of mantle, that is a whole new level IMO.

I personally think that is way way out there. I find it baffling.

Just take a moment to look at the situation and it is really not all that complex. No need for radical theories, or offerings.... I should say.

So lets ask a question here,
Q: Where does M$ make its money with windows sales?
A: Brand new PCs
This is not gonna change

Very very few people buy OS upgrades anymore. The new builds and new sales are the bulk of Microsofts windows sales.

Then there is this other fact that most people don't buy computers often. They keep them for a while. You also have to look at the current trends, which is now a market of many OS's, one of real competition. This is a new age and new strategies are necessary. Google gives away the most popular OS, android. The situation is very very different than it was so many years ago.

You may not know this but Microsoft had/has a free version of windows 8, has absolutely nothing to do with any API but everything to do with android. This is what you need to realize the most, Microsoft has been trying many things to stay relevant. This just didn't all start with win10. Microsoft was willing to give away win8 in cases they thought they wouldn't be able to sell it anyway.

So that's how we get to the decision

The dissatisfaction of win8 + the abundance of other great options that people could buy + the fact that very few users would buy an windows upgrade especially if they are already disappointed with win8 + the quick adoption of alternative OSs in recent years = Microsoft doing things a little bit differently this time.

The quick adoption of alternative operating systems has really got the attention of Microsoft. If they do not change with the times, they will be left behind. There is this real effort to evolve. Take a good look and you will see it coming out in so many other ways. From office to win 10, take a long look.

There are so many people out there with win 8 laptops and such that just will not buy a win 10 upgrade. They just will not and M$ knows this. But win10 is an effort to really shift gears for the company. It is actually much more in their benefit to offer this upgrade, it is not a loss. The largest majority of these people wouldn't buy a win10 upgrade anyway. It is more important to try to keep these people in the M$ ecosystem. This is a new age amnd MS wants to remain very relevant.
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
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Consider those of us who continuously upgrade while keeping the some of components from the past build. Basically a PC could be perpetually upgraded piece by piece. Will the license be valid throughout or will it be tied to e.g the motherboard/cpu combo.

Well, I can upgrade my PC and use my windows 8 license to continue getting updates. I don't think you are supposed to do that though, but I haven't heard of any changes to this. I couldn't say.
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
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I never knew this forum had Microsoft shills too. There's a surprisingly amount of corporate diversity here.

1. DX is not universal, obviously. It's locked to a single platform, Windows. Furthermore, different versions require some functionality of the WDDM so what you get is certain versions of DX requiring certain versions of Windows. Ex. DX10 is locked to Vista and newer, DX11 is locked to 7 and newer, DX11.2 is locked to 8 and newer, DX12 is locked to 10.

2. Vulkan, like OpenGL, is intended to be open to any platform. The hardware vendors can implement Vulkan in their drivers for any platform INCLUDING WINDOWS. Billions use Windows? Good, they're potential Vulkan users.

3. Valve only promotes and develops tools for Vulkan. The Vulkan spec is controlled by Khronos, which is led by AMD, Intel, and Nvidia. In case you haven't realize, those companies produce device drivers so they have the most power in deciding which platform gets Vulkan and on what hardware. Valve has absolutely no power to lock Vulkan to SteamOS, and drivers that work on SteamOS should work fine on most other Linux distros with little issue.

It was always a bad idea to have competing APIs on one platform. Look at the disaster we had before with Glide and OpenGL and DirectX. It was terrible. In some games you had multiple options and there was always a problem with them because the developer felt they had to support everything. When they dropped that and just used DirectX it was a ton better for compatibility and getting games to work IMO.

I'm not talking about locking vulkan to steamOS, but Valve locking you into their SteamOS when you move away from DX because lets face it on Windows DX12 will get the most support. You think it's telling that Intel and Nvidia are working with Khronos on the spec? Hardly...they sell hardware and want to be sure their hardware can work with it so they can *gasp* sell hardware to people who might use it. Tough concept eh? Nvidia wants people to be using their GPUs and Intel their CPUs. Plus it might even benefit Nvidia's Shield platform since it doesn't run on windows. You know, vulkan is not really solely about PC gaming and never was. Android and other mobile platforms will probably make use of it. The thing that I was talking about is Valve trying to break away from Microsoft because valve wants to remain in control of digital distribution for PC games. In 2011 Forbes said that Steam was responsible for 50-70% of the $4billion in downloadable PC games. They don't want to lose that and funnily enough, Microsoft isn't even doing anything to block them. MS is only offering an app store where developers can make games available to Windows PC, Windows Phone, and Xbox platforms. Universal apps can allow a developer to sell their title on multiple platforms with a buy once play anywhere approach. They aren't blocking Steam on Windows. Valve is acting like that's what is happening though. People say MS is a walled garden for PC gaming while praising Valve. Valve is building more of a wall with SteamOS for gaming on PC than MS ever has.

Think about the whole situation being discussed before you call someone a shill.

I agree. The thing that most upsets me about mantle (now Vulcan or whatever) fans, is their continual complaints about how terrible DX is. I would argue that while it does need improvement, which appears to be coming with DX12, it has made it possible to play a wide variety of types of games on platforms from different manufacturers with excellent backwards compatibility. It has basically made PC gaming what it is today.

I agree an alternative like steam OS *might* be desirable to keep MS on its toes, but TBH, I would not want Steam OS to replace DX by any stretch. Although Steam has been very good for PC gaming so far, I personally would not like to see the gaming OS distributed by the same company that sell the vast majority of the games. Seems like an opportunity for even more of a monopoly than DX.

For many people who have been playing games on PC a long time, you couldn't load up a copy of Deus Ex or System Shock 2 for nostalgia on SteamOS. That would be a problem for some users. I think a major thing that DX has going for it is the vast library of games that could be played from years ago.
 
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computergod

Junior Member
Mar 25, 2014
20
0
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Hell most people who own windows do not even know what an API is. So tell me how is an API going to effect someones purchase of windows. When they do not even know what it is?
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
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Hell most people who own windows do not even know what an API is. So tell me how is an API going to effect someones purchase of windows. When they do not even know what it is?

Windows 10 will be free if you run Windows 7 or above for the first year. People will buy windows if they don't get it free because everything they know runs on windows. It's really that simple in my view. It might not affect the end user, but it most definitely will affect the developers who are looking to maximize profit with the least amount of expense.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
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It was always a bad idea to have competing APIs on one platform. Look at the disaster we had before with Glide and OpenGL and DirectX. It was terrible. In some games you had multiple options and there was always a problem with them because the developer felt they had to support everything. When they dropped that and just used DirectX it was a ton better for compatibility and getting games to work IMO.

I'm not talking about locking vulkan to steamOS, but Valve locking you into their SteamOS when you move away from DX because lets face it on Windows DX12 will get the most support. You think it's telling that Intel and Nvidia are working with Khronos on the spec? Hardly...they sell hardware and want to be sure their hardware can work with it so they can *gasp* sell hardware to people who might use it. Tough concept eh? Nvidia wants people to be using their GPUs and Intel their CPUs. Plus it might even benefit Nvidia's Shield platform since it doesn't run on windows. You know, vulkan is not really solely about PC gaming and never was. Android and other mobile platforms will probably make use of it. The thing that I was talking about is Valve trying to break away from Microsoft because valve wants to remain in control of digital distribution for PC games. In 2011 Forbes said that Steam was responsible for 50-70% of the $4billion in downloadable PC games. They don't want to lose that and funnily enough, Microsoft isn't even doing anything to block them. MS is only offering an app store where developers can make games available to Windows PC, Windows Phone, and Xbox platforms. Universal apps can allow a developer to sell their title on multiple platforms with a buy once play anywhere approach. They aren't blocking Steam on Windows. Valve is acting like that's what is happening though. People say MS is a walled garden for PC gaming while praising Valve. Valve is building more of a wall with SteamOS for gaming on PC than MS ever has.

Think about the whole situation being discussed before you call someone a shill.



For many people who have been playing games on PC a long time, you couldn't load up a copy of Deus Ex or System Shock 2 for nostalgia on SteamOS. That would be a problem for some users. I think a major thing that DX has going for it is the vast library of games that could be played from years ago.

Your issues with Valve and their issues with Microsoft are an entirely separate point.

Nothing is wrong with their being both Vulkan and DX12 on the market. For Windows-only developers, they'll simply choose the one that performs the best while also looking great. That's why OpenGL failed to have a significant developer mindshare for Windows-platform titles. OpenGL was always behind Direct3D and had fewer eye-candy features until they caught up. The only developers who chose OpenGL were the ones who wanted to make cross-platform games.

Valve choosing Vulkan is not an issue at all. Why? Because those Vulkan titles will still be available on PC, because even with SteamOS, Gabe knows a significant portion of revenue will remain PC centric.

And he knows some gamers wouldn't mind the one-trick pony approach that consoles offer, while maintaining the hardware strengths of a full-spec PC. That's why SteamOS will have some mild success, because if the gamer only needs a basic laptop with Windows for productivity but wants a dedicated gaming rig, and is okay with a small back catalog and some limits to new game availability, they may be satisfied with one of those SteamOS boxes.

Vulkan has a strong chance of having more success on Windows than OpenGL ever did, and that should not bother you in the slightest. It is quite likely any Vulkan titles will be Vulkan-only, so there won't be option juggling. And guess what? AMD and Nvidia will have strong Vulkan support, I can almost guarantee it, and at the minimum, AMD will for sure (as they already have experience with the Mantle core that evolved into Vulkan).

Many developers may very well appreciate the idea of a multi-platform API that performs and looks just as great as D3D. If Direct3D 12 performs better than Vulkan or has more eye-candy features, then the outlook might be different. But if I were a developer, and Vulkan met my needs and allowed it to compete with the best performing and best looking titles, I'd go that route, because it makes porting to Mac and Linux that much easier. That also allows them to still catch the potential sales of those who do invest in SteamOS.

This won't hurt the PC at all, I don't get why you are vehemently opposed to Vulkan.
You mentioned Glide, but that's not even in the same group. That was locked down to one manufacturer. That would be like what Mantle was. OpenGL was basically always available to users of assorted video cards. Perhaps some early cards did not support it, or the drivers never did, but today OpenGL is universally compatible on Windows, it just isn't that great compared to D3D11. Some will argue about that, but I haven't enjoyed the views offered by any OpenGL-only title. I haven't seen what Source engine looks like under OpenGL, however, Source isn't top of the line in visuals anymore and the features that were exclusive to D3D10 and 11 when Source was still a producer of premium graphics, are now available under OpenGL. It is an old engine these days and OpenGL can handle what Valve had in it just fine.

And from what I can gather, Vulkan will be able to match D3D12. Perhaps it drops behind and more developers choose to eventually focus on D3D12 and either port later or not port at all. That is a bridge that may or may not be crossed in the future. For now, everything is pre-release so we'll just have to see how things eventually play out as titles become focused on these new APIs.
 
Aug 11, 2008
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I have no interest in microsoft financially or personaliy, but I agree with cmdrdredd that overall DX has allowed PC gaming to become what it is today. If you somehow can construe me as being a "shill" because of that, knock yourself out.

The key words however, are "intended" and "potential". How many games now run on mantle, maybe 10, 15 at the most? Can those run on nvidia or intel hardware without DX? Can they even run on older AMD hardware without DX?

How many games run on Vulcan? How many games run on DX? Would there even be PC gaming as we know today it without DX?
 

bystander36

Diamond Member
Apr 1, 2013
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There was nothing wrong with OpenGL and DirectX both being supported when they were the 2 dominate API's. It may have been a small issue when the same game supported both, as it may have pulled resources from one or the other, but having both API's exist and competing is fine.

DirectX is what is almost always used today, because it was superior, and still is. Maybe not in every way, but it is better for the developers, and that is why it is still used. Wish for it to die is not in our best interest. Wishing for Vulcan, OpenGL or what ever to beat it out would be a better wish.

I'd have nothing against OpenGL or Vulcan being the dominant API, or have then both have a share. Just as long as AMD, Intel and Nvidia support both API's well, then we should be in good shape, but that also means Vulcan has have the tools DX has, and make it easy on developers. You might find that only the big budget firms will build with Vulcan, if it is as low level as Mantle.
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
357
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Your issues with Valve and their issues with Microsoft are an entirely separate point.

Nothing is wrong with their being both Vulkan and DX12 on the market. For Windows-only developers, they'll simply choose the one that performs the best while also looking great. That's why OpenGL failed to have a significant developer mindshare for Windows-platform titles. OpenGL was always behind Direct3D and had fewer eye-candy features until they caught up. The only developers who chose OpenGL were the ones who wanted to make cross-platform games.

Valve choosing Vulkan is not an issue at all. Why? Because those Vulkan titles will still be available on PC, because even with SteamOS, Gabe knows a significant portion of revenue will remain PC centric.

And he knows some gamers wouldn't mind the one-trick pony approach that consoles offer, while maintaining the hardware strengths of a full-spec PC. That's why SteamOS will have some mild success, because if the gamer only needs a basic laptop with Windows for productivity but wants a dedicated gaming rig, and is okay with a small back catalog and some limits to new game availability, they may be satisfied with one of those SteamOS boxes.

Vulkan has a strong chance of having more success on Windows than OpenGL ever did, and that should not bother you in the slightest. It is quite likely any Vulkan titles will be Vulkan-only, so there won't be option juggling. And guess what? AMD and Nvidia will have strong Vulkan support, I can almost guarantee it, and at the minimum, AMD will for sure (as they already have experience with the Mantle core that evolved into Vulkan).

Many developers may very well appreciate the idea of a multi-platform API that performs and looks just as great as D3D. If Direct3D 12 performs better than Vulkan or has more eye-candy features, then the outlook might be different. But if I were a developer, and Vulkan met my needs and allowed it to compete with the best performing and best looking titles, I'd go that route, because it makes porting to Mac and Linux that much easier. That also allows them to still catch the potential sales of those who do invest in SteamOS.

This won't hurt the PC at all, I don't get why you are vehemently opposed to Vulkan.
You mentioned Glide, but that's not even in the same group. That was locked down to one manufacturer. That would be like what Mantle was. OpenGL was basically always available to users of assorted video cards. Perhaps some early cards did not support it, or the drivers never did, but today OpenGL is universally compatible on Windows, it just isn't that great compared to D3D11. Some will argue about that, but I haven't enjoyed the views offered by any OpenGL-only title. I haven't seen what Source engine looks like under OpenGL, however, Source isn't top of the line in visuals anymore and the features that were exclusive to D3D10 and 11 when Source was still a producer of premium graphics, are now available under OpenGL. It is an old engine these days and OpenGL can handle what Valve had in it just fine.

And from what I can gather, Vulkan will be able to match D3D12. Perhaps it drops behind and more developers choose to eventually focus on D3D12 and either port later or not port at all. That is a bridge that may or may not be crossed in the future. For now, everything is pre-release so we'll just have to see how things eventually play out as titles become focused on these new APIs.

That's all well and good but doesn't address the MS haters who want to scream "Death to Windows and DirectX". Nothing has done more for PC gaming than DirectX if you ask me. At the same time they claim MS wants to create a walled garden or become similar to Apple's platforms when the alternative they tout (SteamOS) is no better and in my opinion much worse since you would be reliant on them to get any games and have no choices.

If developers use one or the other on windows that's fine provided driver support is kept up. Once you start using both in one engine though it can get a little messy.
 
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destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
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That's all well and good but doesn't address the MS haters who want to scream "Death to Windows and DirectX". Nothing has done more for PC gaming than DirectX if you ask me. At the same time they claim MS wants to create a walled garden or become similar to Apple's platforms when the alternative they tout (SteamOS) is no better and in my opinion much worse since you would be reliant on them to get any games and have no choices.

If developers use one or the other on windows that's fine provided driver support is kept up. Once you start using both in one engine though it can get a little messy.

:thumbsup:
 
Dec 30, 2004
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That's all well and good but doesn't address the MS haters who want to scream "Death to Windows and DirectX". Nothing has done more for PC gaming than DirectX if you ask me. At the same time they claim MS wants to create a walled garden or become similar to Apple's platforms when the alternative they tout (SteamOS) is no better and in my opinion much worse since you would be reliant on them to get any games and have no choices.

If developers use one or the other on windows that's fine provided driver support is kept up. Once you start using both in one engine though it can get a little messy.

OpenGL failed to grow and so will Vulkan or whatever the heck it is. It takes a financial interest to push graphics APIs. Open Source just wasn't able to do that.
 

ocre

Golden Member
Dec 26, 2008
1,594
7
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so what about that SA post from some "in the know" member that claimed all heck was gonna break loose for nvidia at the GDC DX12 reveal?

What was that about?
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
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OpenGL failed to grow and so will Vulkan or whatever the heck it is. It takes a financial interest to push graphics APIs. Open Source just wasn't able to do that.

It has far more to do with it than that.

Also, there is a significant financial interest in coding something in a universal API from the start, as opposed to having to port later on. To be able to have your game ready to port to both Mac and Linux from the get-go, with far less work to get the engine ported to the other platform, that not only saves you time and money in the long run, it also makes it easier to make even more money getting a solid product to other potential buyers.

OpenGL failed to grow significantly because DirectX was routinely a better API.

With DirectX 12 and Vulkan, they are both starting off on fertile and fresh ground. Vulkan technically has a bit of a lead, as it is a fork of Mantle so a good portion of the code paths can already be actively developed for.

D3D12 and Vulkan will both be difficult to develop for, if focusing on the low-overhead, closer to the metal approach that both offer. Make no mistake, Vulkan isn't competing with DX11, nor can it. That is why Microsoft is also pushing D3D11.3, an easier to use framework to get some of the visual features of D3D12, but without the closer to the metal difficulty or the low overhead. I don't think Vulkan is going to have that kind of capability, but I may be wrong.

Vulkan isn't going to be nearly as stagnant as OpenGL on Windows, mark my words. Obviously DX isn't going anywhere, ever, and DX12 specifically will be successful and will surely continue to grow. We can have both, not sure why anyone cares to argue that one sucks or both can't coexist.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
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so what about that SA post from some "in the know" member that claimed all heck was gonna break loose for nvidia at the GDC DX12 reveal?

What was that about?

Either that member wasn't as reliable as people were led to believe, or the level of technical detail reveal that he expected didn't actually happen, and some details are still being held close to the chest.

Or the way it was presented, it didn't seem significant to any of the press, or they didn't understand it. It will be developers who really break this down for us first, the press will need more clear descriptions or demonstrations before they can pass that info on reliably.
 

Stormflux

Member
Jul 21, 2010
140
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In light of the recent discussion, I'll say that Windows 10, and DX12 is not just competing with the new generation of the desktop OpenGL, but that Vulkan is a unification of OpenGL and OpenGL ES which is the primary API for all things mobile at this time. Effectively Android. That's where Metal will come in for the mobile space between iOS and Android.

idTech engines were mostly done in OpenGL. There are no actual rendering parity issues between the two. The wide and clear dominance of DX on Windows and PC gaming is largely due to Tooling and ease of development. Something, that is at this point being rectified for Vulkan, with a strong effort of Valve already.

I have the utmost respect for Microsoft and their efforts. But, I myself want to see Vulkan prevail as the dominant API going forward due to not being tied to Microsofts sole whims.
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
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In light of the recent discussion, I'll say that Windows 10, and DX12 is not just competing with the new generation of the desktop OpenGL, but that Vulkan is a unification of OpenGL and OpenGL ES which is the primary API for all things mobile at this time. Effectively Android. That's where Metal will come in for the mobile space between iOS and Android.

idTech engines were mostly done in OpenGL. There are no actual rendering parity issues between the two. The wide and clear dominance of DX on Windows and PC gaming is largely due to Tooling and ease of development. Something, that is at this point being rectified for Vulkan, with a strong effort of Valve already.

I have the utmost respect for Microsoft and their efforts. But, I myself want to see Vulkan prevail as the dominant API going forward due to not being tied to Microsofts sole whims.

The way your last sentence sounds to me is like you are ready to worship Vulkan like it's Christ himself. What exactly has MS done that has hurt games on the PC with DirectX? Nothing that's what. So the rhetoric is getting pretty old to keep reading. "not locked to microsoft's whims" what does that even mean? With windows as the central platform there's more games available on the PC than ever. I'm not saying Vulkan is garbage or that it shouldn't exist. There are many uses for it outside Windows too, but I'm having a hard time understanding why someone can sit there and type something that paints DirectX as a bane on PC gaming while Vulkan will somehow save it from evil. I feel that a developer can choose what to use, whatever works best for them. I do not think DX or MS in general is going to bury gaming on the PC.
 
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tviceman

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2008
6,734
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It was always a bad idea to have competing APIs on one platform.

You are apparently a "put all your eggs in one basket" kind of guy! I don't hate MS, but MS's best interests are never PC gaming. No matter how much of an improvement DX12 is over any previous DX iteration, MS will always put PC gaming on the back burner. Hardly any AAA in house PC releases, empty promises made year after year, slow adoption of better tech/programming methods, shutting down of services... They don't particularly care to or even NEED to support AAA bleeding edge PC gaming. The mass market doesn't play AAA PC games. They play DOTA 2, Diablo 3, WoW, LoL, TF2, CS:GO, Popcap, and Big Fish Games. All games that don't require DX12, let alone 11, let alone 10... Microsoft would rather the average gamer deciding between a PS4 or XB1, because when it comes to PC gaming the only slice of the pie MS gets is OS sales.

How about instead of making blanket statements like yours, lets see if the developers can and want to support multiple platforms. If there is no interest, money to be made, or benefit in steamOS, then it will fade away. But if it turns out to be competitive in sales volume over the long haul and/or faster in-game performance, what was lost by allowing developers and the market decide?
 
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cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
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You are apparently a "put all your eggs in one basket" kind of guy! I don't hate MS, but MS's best interests are never PC gaming. No matter how much of an improvement DX12 is over any previous DX iteration, MS will always put PC gaming on the back burner. Hardly any AAA in house PC releases, empty promises made year after year, slow adoption of better tech/programming methods, shutting down of services... They don't particularly care to or even NEED to support AAA bleeding edge PC gaming. The mass market doesn't play AAA PC games. They play DOTA 2, Diablo 3, WoW, LoL, TF2, CS:GO, Popcap, and Big Fish Games. All games that don't require DX12, let alone 11, let alone 10... Microsoft would rather the average gamer deciding between a PS4 or XB1, because when it comes to PC gaming the only slice of the pie MS gets is OS sales.

How about instead of making blanket statements like yours, lets see if the developers can and want to support multiple platforms. If there is no interest, money to be made, or benefit in steamOS, then it will fade away. But if it turns out to be competitive in sales volume over the long haul and/or faster performing, what was lost by allowing developers and the market decide?

Maybe I need to clarify.

Back in the day you had OpenGL getting a push and DirectX also. Some games used both and sometimes one was too slow and the other had texture problems. Neither was good in those cases. When a developer focused on one or the other it was much better. Eventually DX basically took over and the quality of the games went up in my opinion, also the quantity. I don't want to go back to where it was before. I would rather not see an engine that uses Vulkan and DX12 but doesn't optimize either very well because the developer just wants to release the game for every platform out there disregarding quality. Think Ubisoft's current efforts multiplied a few times. It can be a mess. That's why I'm hoping this does not happen.
 

bystander36

Diamond Member
Apr 1, 2013
5,154
132
106
You are apparently a "put all your eggs in one basket" kind of guy! I don't hate MS, but MS's best interests are never PC gaming. No matter how much of an improvement DX12 is over any previous DX iteration, MS will always put PC gaming on the back burner. Hardly any AAA in house PC releases, empty promises made year after year, slow adoption of better tech/programming methods, shutting down of services... They don't particularly care to or even NEED to support AAA bleeding edge PC gaming. The mass market doesn't play AAA PC games. They play DOTA 2, Diablo 3, WoW, LoL, TF2, CS:GO, Popcap, and Big Fish Games. All games that don't require DX12, let alone 11, let alone 10... Microsoft would rather the average gamer deciding between a PS4 or XB1, because when it comes to PC gaming the only slice of the pie MS gets is OS sales.

How about instead of making blanket statements like yours, lets see if the developers can and want to support multiple platforms. If there is no interest, money to be made, or benefit in steamOS, then it will fade away. But if it turns out to be competitive in sales volume over the long haul and/or faster in-game performance, what was lost by allowing developers and the market decide?

That is an awfully big thing. Gaming is why Windows is the dominant OS on personal computers (not talking phones or tablets here). There were 2 other, very good OS's at the time Windows took over that failed to get into most homes, and it was MS's push for gaming on Windows that played a huge role in taking a commanding lead in OS sales.

Even if most people do not play AAA games, the perception of being the leader in personal computer gaming is why people stick with Windows.

While I do not have an issue with OpenGL competing with DirectX, don't discount Windows as a gaming platform as being a huge deal for Microsoft.
 

Stormflux

Member
Jul 21, 2010
140
26
91
The way your last sentence sounds to me is like you are ready to worship Vulkan like it's Christ himself. What exactly has MS done that has hurt games on the PC with DirectX? Nothing that's what. So the rhetoric is getting pretty old to keep reading. "not locked to microsoft's whims" what does that even mean? With windows as the central platform there's more games available on the PC than ever. I'm not saying Vulkan is garbage or that it shouldn't exist. There are many uses for it outside Windows too, but I'm having a hard time understanding why someone can sit there and type something that paints DirectX as a bane on PC gaming while Vulkan will somehow save it from evil. I feel that a developer can choose what to use, whatever works best for them. I do not think DX or MS in general is going to bury gaming on the PC.

As I type this on my Surface Pro3, I urge you to not read into it too much, at least not in the biblical sense. Who knows what the future will hold. Look at the chart. Android is over 50%, I strongly believe in the idea of Code Once, Deploy Anywhere. Which I think is going to be great for Windows 10 Family, but that's still only limited to W10. The MS Store on my Surface and Nokia 920 is laughable.

The same concept (though not so simply) can be applied to a universal Vulkan API if it gets widely adopted. Again, OpenGL ES is actually being utilized more than DX these days due to Mobile and Web. Vulkan is bringing back OpenGL ES into the mainline.

But I'll elaborate. Why does DX12 require W10? WDDM 2.0. When was the last release of a featured DX11? DX 11.2 with the release of 8.1. 11.1 with 8.0 before that. That's really slow progress, and it's only for the Personal Desktop. One thing I was looking forward to with Mantle is a more responsive development process. I hope that carries true for Vulkan.

Like I said I have the utmost respect for Microsoft and don't get me wrong, the Khronos group is in large part the cause of the fragmentation of OpenGL and OpenGL ES, and I hope the Design by Committee doesn't hinder Vulkan as much as it did OpenGL.

Right now as said above, both DX12 and Vulkan are sort of fresh starts. It's going to take a lot more developer know-how and resources to use these APIs fully. DX has the benefit of proven great support and tooling, so it already is ahead in that regard. GDC is proving that Vulkan is getting attention where OpenGL was failing, tools are being developed and companies are on board as much as they are for DX12.
 

NTMBK

Lifer
Nov 14, 2011
10,398
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DirectX 12 games will run on Windows- Vulkan games will run on Windows, Android and probably iOS too. If I were a game dev I know exactly which API I would be choosing.
 

tviceman

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2008
6,734
514
126
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That is an awfully big thing. Gaming is why Windows is the dominant OS on personal computers (not talking phones or tablets here). There were 2 other, very good OS's at the time Windows took over that failed to get into most homes, and it was MS's push for gaming on Windows that played a huge role in taking a commanding lead in OS sales.

Even if most people do not play AAA games, the perception of being the leader in personal computer gaming is why people stick with Windows.

While I do not have an issue with OpenGL competing with DirectX, don't discount Windows as a gaming platform as being a huge deal for Microsoft.

No. That is an even awfully BIGGER (and factually incorrect) thing to say. Windows is dominant on personal computers because it's what the vast majority of all businesses rely on and it's ALWAYS been the dominant platform since Windows 95, well before the establishment of Windows-based games. There has basically been no real challenging (substantial) competition to Windows. Windows did not follow games, games followed Windows.
 

Stormflux

Member
Jul 21, 2010
140
26
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Maybe I need to clarify.

Back in the day you had OpenGL getting a push and DirectX also. Some games used both and sometimes one was too slow and the other had texture problems. Neither was good in those cases. When a developer focused on one or the other it was much better. Eventually DX basically took over and the quality of the games went up in my opinion, also the quantity. I don't want to go back to where it was before. I would rather not see an engine that uses Vulkan and DX12 but doesn't optimize either very well because the developer just wants to release the game for every platform out there disregarding quality. Think Ubisoft's current efforts multiplied a few times. It can be a mess. That's why I'm hoping this does not happen.

Your worry is definitely something I share but it's misplaced and contradictory. It's obvious you're on the DX12 bandwagon when someone mentions Vulkan being dominant because of this same concern and you screaming bloody murder. I would have to say in response to your claim that nothing has done more for Gaming on PC than DX, is that Steam has done more.

Ubisofts lack of optimization and bug testing is not because of API or multiplatform releases, its poor top heavy mis-management and appeasing to share holders. You think the developers on these games want to release buggy stuff?
 
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