Microsoft: New CPUs will require Windows 10

[quakeworld]

from ZDNet: http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-updates-support-policy-new-cpus-will-require-windows-10/

'Going forward, as new silicon generations are introduced, they will require the latest Windows platform at that time for support... Windows 10 will be the only supported Windows platform on Intel's upcoming "Kaby Lake" silicon, Qualcomm's upcoming "8996" silicon, and AMD's upcoming "Bristol Ridge" silicon.'

 

[postmortemIA]

its all over news... I can understand difficulty supporting old OSes, but this is a precedent. Most people agree that this is just another push to windows 10, where MS is even pushing HW vendors towards it. My Ivy Bridge system bought in late 2012 had support for XP. And XP was over 10 yrs old then. And XP driver model is way different than Vista/7 that were available then.
Now difference between 7 and 10 is not that big. Most Win 7 drivers work OK in Windows 10.

 

[readymix]

pooofff. there goes 2 8.1 licenses. voided! lying snakes!

 

[postmortemIA]

it will still work, but no guarantees of any kind

 

[balloonshark]

I was going to build a 6th gen skylake (not kaby lake) rig. I do not want Windows 10 on the machine.

1. Does this mean I should now go with older hardware instead?

2. Can't we just get our drivers from the hardware manufactures as usual?

3. Does support just mean help directly from MS or does it mean they may toss us a forced update that makes our machine less usable or unusable?

 

[Executioner]

You could still install Win7 or 8.1 on new silicon, BUT MS is not going to guarantee that it performs as well as it would under Win10 because Win10 will support new features in these CPUs. MS is not going to release patches to try to make older OSes utilize these new features. (from FlyingPenguin at PCA)https://www.pcabusers.org/forums/showthread.php?t=58857

Our Commitment to Windows 7 and Windows 8.1 Customers

At the same time, we know many of these customers continue to rely on Windows 7 for its well understood reliability and compatibility. Windows 7 was designed nearly 10 years ago before any x86/x64 SOCs existed. For Windows 7 to run on any modern silicon, device drivers and firmware need to emulate Windows 7’s expectations for interrupt processing, bus support, and power states- which is challenging for WiFi, graphics, security, and more. As partners make customizations to legacy device drivers, services, and firmware settings, customers are likely to see regressions with Windows 7 ongoing servicing.

https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2016/01/15/windows-10-embracing-silicon-innovation/

 

[Red Squirrel]

This has always been my fear... That hardware manufacturers are basically "bought" by MS to make hardware (CPUs in this case) OS dependent and only work in Windows. So basically they will have an OS check right into the CPUs? The article is not really clear on what happens if you try to use an unsupported OS.

I wonder what this will mean for the Linux community, wonder how feasible it would be to develop an open source computing platform. Maybe this is what will end up happening. Of course, there's always AMD, not sure if they will follow suit with this as well.

 

[mv2devnull]

So basically they will have an OS check right into the CPUs?

No. CPU's require *nothing*.

An OS may require some hardware feature. The title is grossly misleading (and thus the CPU Forum here already has a *misplaced* thread about this).


In this case Microsoft simply states that it will not add OS support for new features of new CPU's into their deprecated versions of Windows. The old Windows can still be (and are) installed and used on the Skylake platform, but they won't make full use of the CPU's abilities.

Similar example: libvirt on CentOS 5 does not expose the AES-NI to virtual machines. As result, applications (openvpn) in a virtual machine cannot use that instruction set even though the host platform CPU has it. libvirt in CentOS 6 and 7 has the support.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Ohhh I see makes more sense, they make it sound like the CPUs wont actually run any other OS.

 

[ViRGE]

In this case Microsoft simply states that it will not add OS support for new features of new CPU's into their deprecated versions of Windows. The old Windows can still be (and are) installed and used on the Skylake platform, but they won't make full use of the CPU's abilities.

It's more than that though. Windows 7 already doesn't work properly on Skylake. The Skylake chipset does not support USB 2.0, and Windows 7 doesn't have a USB 3.0 class driver since it predates it.

 

[mv2devnull]

Intel ARK Z170 description contains:

USB 3.0 -- Up to 10
USB 2.0 -- Up to 14

Where does the "does not support USB 2.0" come from?


At least one site has used a more descriptive title: "Microsoft will not support upcoming CPUs on Windows 7 or 8.1":
http://www.overclock3d.net/articles...t_support_upcoming_cpus_on_windows_7_or_8_1/1

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Where does the "does not support USB 2.0" come from?

Of course the Skylake PCH supports USB 2.0. There is a catch though.

Skylake removes the EHCI (USB 2.0) controller from the PCH. With Skylake, all USB is handled though the XHCI (USB 3.0/3.1) controller. Which is fully backwards compatible with USB 2.0 devices. But 7 doesn't have a native XHCI class driver, it only has an EHCI class driver. So USB 2.0 is supported, its just not "supported" from the OS perspective.

In practice this means you either have to preload the correct driver to the Windows 7 image you're installing, or you can't use USB devices during installation. Without a keyboard (and mouse) its a little difficult to use the standard Windows installer...

Hope that makes sense.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Good move from MS. And people using latest hardware needs to move away from ancient OSes. Specially when the upgrade is free.

 

[WelshBloke]

Good move from MS. And people using latest hardware needs to move away from ancient OSes. Specially when the upgrade is free.

What about the enterprise crowd?
I work in health care and the level of data acquisition that Microsoft have going on in Windows 10 isn't going to fly there.

 

[ViRGE]

Of course the Skylake PCH supports USB 2.0. There is a catch though.

Skylake removes the EHCI (USB 2.0) controller from the PCH. With Skylake, all USB is handled though the XHCI (USB 3.0/3.1) controller. Which is fully backwards compatible with USB 2.0 devices. But 7 doesn't have a native XHCI class driver, it only has an EHCI class driver. So USB 2.0 is supported, its just not "supported" from the OS perspective.

In practice this means you either have to preload the correct driver to the Windows 7 image you're installing, or you can't use USB devices during installation. Without a keyboard (and mouse) its a little difficult to use the standard Windows installer...

Hope that makes sense.

Thank you. You explained it better than I could have.

 

[mv2devnull]

USB 2.0: roger that. Using Windows without monitor was akward. Without keyboard ...

What about the enterprise crowd?
I work in health care and the level of data acquisition that Microsoft have going on in Windows 10 isn't going to fly there.

* If you have sensitive data, then you don't connect the system into Inet under any circumstances. Windows 10 does not change that.

* Enterprises can (and do) set up and maintain their own update server. The machines load updates from the company server rather than MS server. That means that someone at the company pulls updates from MS, tests them, and puts them on the server. Furthermore, the clients have to be configured to use the server.

Combine the two points above: set clients on isolated network that does have the update server and add second, inet-connected, interface to the server.


This "MS policy change", however, targets mainly SMB, who cannot afford to maintain their own update servers.

 

[Mem]

Good move from MS. And people using latest hardware needs to move away from ancient OSes. Specially when the upgrade is free.

Exactly, end of the day smart move, personally I try to keep everything up to date and never get too attached to my hardware or software, they all get phased out sooner or later.

 

[TeknoBug]

Hmm that means no Linux?

What about the enterprise crowd?
I work in health care and the level of data acquisition that Microsoft have going on in Windows 10 isn't going to fly there.

I'm assuming MS are referring to consumer level CPU's, the US Navy still uses Windows XP due to proprietary software and security systems, there are many major companies still using XP and 7 Enterprise.

 

[mv2devnull]

Hmm that means no Linux?

No. That means "no Windows [7|8.1] on future computers".

Linux has no trouble running on future hardware. Naturally, deprecated Linux distribution releases will not run (just like deprecated Windows releases will not) on new hardware. The difference is that Linux users have less objections to upgrading than the Windows users.

 

[Magic Carpet]

The difference is that Linux users have less objections to upgrading than the Windows users.

The main difference is freedom. You don't have to use Gnome if you prefer KDE, for example. Other things as well, no point to list them for you guys. So yeah, no problems with upgrading since you don't have to give up certain things to make room for the others. Is Microsoft this stupid? Seems so. No longer the same since Mr. Gates left. They are just brute-forcing their way... the hard way onto as many devices as possible. Not exactly the best method to retain respect and loyalty, imo. It's getting ridiculously clear, that if you are not into gaming, it's better to migrate to a different platform and start getting to know your computer more maybe.

 

[Elixer]

What about the enterprise crowd?
I work in health care and the level of data acquisition that Microsoft have going on in Windows 10 isn't going to fly there.

The choice seems clear, stick with the old stuff, or, switch to a platform that is more suited.
I also am pretty sure that MS's enterprise crowd has a 'privacy' mode in win 10 that they can enable to stop all the background statistical gathering.


Also, there is nothing stopping Intel or AMD or... from making drivers to "fix" this, MS just won't backport the extra support the CPU offers to the older OSes.

So, if the new CPU has a new feature that needs OS level support, MS is saying come to windows 10.
This makes sense, why support something that is marked deprecated?
(Though, I am sure if you pay them enough, they will support anything).

There are other OSes out there that people can use, Linux, BSD, AmigaOS, and so on...

 

[quikah]

This is good. Windows <10 should get security and bug fixes only. New features should be reserved for the current version. No reason to waste resources porting new code to old OS.

 

[Mem]

The main difference is freedom. You don't have to use Gnome if you prefer KDE, for example. Other things as well, no point to list them for you guys. So yeah, no problems with upgrading since you don't have to give up certain things to make room for the others. Is Microsoft this stupid? Seems so. No longer the same since Mr. Gates left. They are just brute-forcing their way... the hard way onto as many devices as possible. Not exactly the best method to retain respect and loyalty, imo. It's getting ridiculously clear, that if you are not into gaming, it's better to migrate to a different platform and start getting to know your computer more maybe.

Why should Microsoft waste resources on old or Operating Systems that don't support modern hardware?..Operating Systems are cheap even if you have to pay for them compared to a lot of hardware, end of the day your choice to stay on old or obsolete Windows OS, rest can move on and enjoy the benefits that this will bring.

Also remember Operating Systems stay around for awhile, not like gone next week so again you have time to move on unless you don't then that is your choice.

Very smart move Microsoft .

 

[VirtualLarry]

In practice this means you either have to preload the correct driver to the Windows 7 image you're installing, or you can't use USB devices during installation. Without a keyboard (and mouse) its a little difficult to use the standard Windows installer...

Hope that makes sense.

In practice, it's not too bad. ASRock motherboards, have "PS/2 Port 60/64 emulation", which makes your USB keyboard / mouse, connected through the xHCI controller, appear as PS/2 port hardware to the OS. (Or you can always use a REAL PS/2 keyboard, if you have one and the mobo has the ports, which most do still.)

My Asus H110M-A board doesn't have a UEFI option for it, but it appears to work anyways, it may be always on.

It's tricky to get the xHCI driver on there, because even if you install Win7 64-bit, in UEFI mode, off of a SATA DVD drive, and use a USB keyboard / mouse to navigate the installer, you still can't stick the driver on a USB drive and plug it in, because... no USB support.

So you either have to use the mobo CD/DVD, and hopefully it has the driver on there, and put it into the SATA DVD drive after installing the base OS, or...

You can also make a Rufus Bootable UEFI USB3.0 stick with Linux Mint 17.3 64-bit (I used Cinnamon), and after Win7 is installed, and the primary SSD formatted properly (by Win7), then plug in the USB stick, set up UEFI to boot off of it, and boot off of it.

The newest (17.3) version of Mint supports Skylake, and will let you download the drivers off the internet, onto the download directory in C:\Users\username , using Firefox in Linux, and after you finish downloading the drivers using Linux, then reboot, pull the USB stick, set up UEFI to boot off of the Windows Boot Manager on the SSD again, and then once inside Win7 64-bit, simply navigate to the Downloads directory, and install the various drivers, including LAN and xHCI (USB3.0).

That's how I've been installing my Win7 64-bit onto my Skylake platforms. It's a slight PITA, but not bad.

My ASRock Z170 Pro4S also has "Internet Driver Download" feature in the UEFI, which I tried to use at first. It asks for the storage device to put the drivers onto, and downloaded 128MB worth of stuff, but when I rebooted back into Windows, a search in File Explorer couldn't find the driver file that downloaded. I have no idea where it went to. So I had to resort to the Linux Mint 17.3 method, that I had used on my Asus H110M-A board.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

In practice, it's not too bad. ASRock motherboards, have "PS/2 Port 60/64 emulation", which makes your USB keyboard / mouse, connected through the xHCI controller, appear as PS/2 port hardware to the OS. (Or you can always use a REAL PS/2 keyboard, if you have one and the mobo has the ports, which most do still.)

My Asus H110M-A board doesn't have a UEFI option for it, but it appears to work anyways, it may be always on.

It's tricky to get the xHCI driver on there, because even if you install Win7 64-bit, in UEFI mode, off of a SATA DVD drive, and use a USB keyboard / mouse to navigate the installer, you still can't stick the driver on a USB drive and plug it in, because... no USB support.

So you either have to use the mobo CD/DVD, and hopefully it has the driver on there, and put it into the SATA DVD drive after installing the base OS, or...

You can also make a Rufus Bootable UEFI USB3.0 stick with Linux Mint 17.3 64-bit (I used Cinnamon), and after Win7 is installed, and the primary SSD formatted properly (by Win7), then plug in the USB stick, set up UEFI to boot off of it, and boot off of it.

For DIY/homebuilt systems I agree with you. There are plenty of workarounds available. Worst case is that installation takes awhile longer.

The "sticky" part is OEM systems. Especially laptops. Most newer machines don't have PS/2 ports, nor optical drives any more. They're completely reliant on USB for external connection (at least apart from WiFi and cabled Ethernet). So its likely to be a bit more involved getting 7 on such systems then simple plug-and-play.