Millennials on Their Student Loan Dept: Out of Sight, Out of Mind.

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Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,999
1,396
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Although the U.S. Department of Education has calculated the national average for student loan debt for college grads at $29,400, a Citizens Bank survey found that average student debt for millennials is much higher — roughly $41,286.

Despite that sizable average, 15 percent of the grads surveyed said they didn’t know their total student loan balance and more than a third of grads (37 percent) reported being clueless as to their loans’ interest rate.

Yet even while facing sometimes burdensome loan payments, a large share of millennials are unwilling to prioritize student loan repayment over spending on luxury and quality-of-life items.

For example, when asked what they’d be willing to give up in exchange for lower student loan payments, this is what the survey revealed:

Less than half (45 percent) were willing to cut what they spend on eating out.
Just 46 percent said they’d cut their entertainment and social event expenses.
A mere 40 percent were willing to limit their housing expenses (rent or mortgage).
Only half of millennials were willing to slash their spending on clothes, shoes and accessories.

“They are very committed to living their life the way they want to live their life, and as frustrated as they are by student loans, they are not willing to make those lifestyle trade-offs,” said Brendan Coughlin, president of consumer lending for Citizens Bank.

http://www.moneytalksnews.com/most-college-grads-unwilling-forfeit-luxuries-reduce-student-loans/


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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,005
49,782
136
I obviously look at life, the world, and my place in it much differently than you do. The fact that you place collective blame for everything you perceive to be wrong on my generation is indicative of the sheer depth of your naivete and egocentric self-righteousness.

The fact that you think me pointing out that things the boomers screwed up as placing collective blame for all wrongs on your generation is indicative of either your strong desire not to confront unfortunate facts or your inability to understand what you have read.

I'm merely a pawn who stumbled through life and haphazardly found his way out of abject poverty...I have nothing to be ashamed of and have lived my life without feeling driven to collectively blame others for all the adversity and misfortunes I've suffered. But, as we can clearly see, you are very, very different in this regard.

Oh jesus, spare me the martyrdom act. You pretty consistently blame other people as soon as you encounter an uncomfortable thought. If your ego is so fragile that the only reason you can think of someone criticizing the bad results of your generation's leadership is so they can blame their misfortunes on someone else you're more self-deluded than I thought.

This is also rich, coming from the person that reacts to uncomfortable information by constantly alleging bias, lies, etc. Maybe some people here can teach you a bit about handling adversity, haha.

I personally can't imagine living a life perceiving oneself as the victim of an imperfect world and casting blame on the actions/inactions of an entire generation. Just please don't expect me or my generation to accept blame for all the adversity and perceived injustices you must endure my poor, poor child. But, by all means, please do feel free to lash out with your misplaced resentment as if it somehow makes you feel better about your own ever-increasing sense of impotence and helplessness that inevitably comes with the passage of time...as your generation totally fucks it up for the next. lol

I can't imagine looking at myself as a victim either, that would be terrible I agree. My generation might screw things up, sure, but it would be hard to beat the boomers.
 

HamburgerBoy

Lifer
Apr 12, 2004
27,112
318
126

Yep, and this doesn't even factor in that the $30,000 figure is massively inflated thanks to private universities and post-Bachelor's education. Public college loans are a non-issue that anyone with the slightest ability to save and reason could pay back. The politicization of this (especially by Sanders) has nothing to do with people not able to afford attending college, it's greedy moochers that want their easy "gimme that".
 

Subyman

Moderator <br> VC&G Forum
Mar 18, 2005
7,876
32
86
Yep, and this doesn't even factor in that the $30,000 figure is massively inflated thanks to private universities and post-Bachelor's education. Public college loans are a non-issue that anyone with the slightest ability to save and reason could pay back. The politicization of this (especially by Sanders) has nothing to do with people not able to afford attending college, it's greedy moochers that want their easy "gimme that".

Oh man, this is a funny post. College loans are a non-issue... $30k+ debt before getting a house, before figuring out a car, before kids, and before anything at all just a freshly graduated student on the streets, that is a non-issue.
 
Nov 30, 2006
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My generation might screw things up, sure, but it would be hard to beat the boomers.
My generation made tremendous strides in education, transportation, communications, arts, music, standard of living, technological advancements, pollution abatement, civil rights among many, many other things. Yes, not perfect by any stretch of the imagination...but I look forward to your generation doing much better despite your incredibly negative "the sky is falling" perceptions as if we handed you a shit sandwich.
 
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HamburgerBoy

Lifer
Apr 12, 2004
27,112
318
126
Oh man, this is a funny post. College loans are a non-issue... $30k+ debt before getting a house, before figuring out a car, before kids, and before anything at all just a freshly graduated student on the streets, that is a non-issue.

The majority don't have $30k in debt. The median is closer to $10k in debt. Virtually all new cars are going to cost more than that. No one has a right to immediately buy a house; I live at home and attend school locally to save on rent and tuition, but as much as I want to own a home I'll probably end up renting for a while until I have a stable job situation, which is what anyone with common sense should do. Kids? Simple solution: don't have kids until you can afford them.

The biggest issue is scam universities that create shittons of debt for a worthless degree. Do you know the kinds of people that attend those scam universities? People not good enough to get into a state college, aka people that shouldn't be in college to begin with.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
lol. The only debt I have is my mortgage. No student debt, no credit card debt, no nothing.

Contrary to whatever crazy idea you just pulled out of your ass, millennials on average have much lower amounts of credit card debt than older generations and tend to use them less frequently.
From your theories of good government.

Yep, and this doesn't even factor in that the $30,000 figure is massively inflated thanks to private universities and post-Bachelor's education. Public college loans are a non-issue that anyone with the slightest ability to save and reason could pay back. The politicization of this (especially by Sanders) has nothing to do with people not able to afford attending college, it's greedy moochers that want their easy "gimme that".

Oh man, this is a funny post. College loans are a non-issue... $30k+ debt before getting a house, before figuring out a car, before kids, and before anything at all just a freshly graduated student on the streets, that is a non-issue.

I can see you're both right to a degree. If you accumulated $30k in loans getting a highly paid degree, then sure, it's no big deal and was in fact a good investment. If on the other hand you accumulated even $10k in loans getting a degree in sociology or psychology or liberal arts from a typical university, then it's a very big deal.
 

HamburgerBoy

Lifer
Apr 12, 2004
27,112
318
126
Even a degree in social work shouldn't be the end of the world (median income ~$40k/yr). There's no reason a person making that much can't pay back $10k eventually, it just means cutting back on the unrealistic, loan-supported standard of living they got to enjoy during undergrad.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Even a degree in social work shouldn't be the end of the world (median income ~$40k/yr). There's no reason a person making that much can't pay back $10k eventually, it just means cutting back on the unrealistic, loan-supported standard of living they got to enjoy during undergrad.
Oh, I agree they can pay it back, but if one is earning $40k/yr in a big city, it's definitely painful to service $10K in debt. Although there are benefits too; one can easily get by without an automobile in a big city, saving part of that expense.
 

Subyman

Moderator <br> VC&G Forum
Mar 18, 2005
7,876
32
86
The majority don't have $30k in debt. The median is closer to $10k in debt. Virtually all new cars are going to cost more than that. No one has a right to immediately buy a house; I live at home and attend school locally to save on rent and tuition, but as much as I want to own a home I'll probably end up renting for a while until I have a stable job situation, which is what anyone with common sense should do. Kids? Simple solution: don't have kids until you can afford them.

The biggest issue is scam universities that create shittons of debt for a worthless degree. Do you know the kinds of people that attend those scam universities? People not good enough to get into a state college, aka people that shouldn't be in college to begin with.

Average is right at 30k

Seven in 10 seniors (69%) who graduated from public and nonprofit colleges in 2014 had student loan debt, with an average of $28,950 per borrower.

I'd be very surprised if the median and average are that far apart, but I'd be interested to see your numbers. Do note, that I believe the 30k number is only undergrad, not an advanced degree.
 
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HamburgerBoy

Lifer
Apr 12, 2004
27,112
318
126
Well, this one is also only undergraduates, but you can't neglect the impact of private universities.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/innovations/wp/2013/09/24/five-myths-about-college-debt/

34.4 percent graduated with no debt.
12.0 percent graduated with $1-$9,999 in debt.
18.2 percent graduated with $10,000-$19,999 in debt.
15.5 percent graduated with $20,000-$29,999 in debt.
8.9 percent graduated with $30,000-$39,999 in debt.
5.3 percent graduated with $40,000-$49,999 in debt.
5.3 percent graduated with $50,000-$99,999 in debt.
0.5 percent graduated with over $100,000 in debt.

Basically, ~10% of college graduates are idiots, ~50% are between $0 and $10k, and those in between are somewhere in the middle. Not any kind of crisis.
 

Mai72

Lifer
Sep 12, 2012
11,578
1,741
126
It's because many people are fed a line of h*rseshit. You gotta go to college to make it today. Yada, yada, yada.

No. You need drive, ambition and a willingness to work. 40 hours ain't sh*t today. I put in 70 plus hours last week. Get your mind on making money, and put that money to the side.

Invest in yourself. Learning should never stop after college. Read as many books as you can. Learn some skills that can make you money. I personally like learning about running businesses online. My goal is to read 1-2 books a month.

My thought is on making more money. How can I make more money? Not, I only want to work 35 hours, can't wait for the weekend, and spend money on sh*t I can't afford. Our values are messed up, and we are teaching our children to do as little as possible.
 

Mai72

Lifer
Sep 12, 2012
11,578
1,741
126
The majority don't have $30k in debt. The median is closer to $10k in debt. Virtually all new cars are going to cost more than that. No one has a right to immediately buy a house; I live at home and attend school locally to save on rent and tuition, but as much as I want to own a home I'll probably end up renting for a while until I have a stable job situation, which is what anyone with common sense should do. Kids? Simple solution: don't have kids until you can afford them.

The biggest issue is scam universities that create shittons of debt for a worthless degree. Do you know the kinds of people that attend those scam universities? People not good enough to get into a state college, aka people that shouldn't be in college to begin with.
We have 1.3 Trillion dollars in student loan debt and rising. That's trillion, not million or billion. Our economy is recovering very slowly and part of this is the fact that many people who are saddled with student loan debt are unable to contribute to the economy. They aren't able to buy cars, homes, etc. They aren't able to put money away for retirement either.

If student loan debt wasn't that big of an issue, you wouldn't have large crowds of people attending rallies so they can show their support for Bernie. Don't be fooled. It's a huge issue that America is going to need to face sooner or later.

http://www.nytimes.com/live/bernie-sanders-washington-square-park/fury-over-student-loan-debt/
 
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HamburgerBoy

Lifer
Apr 12, 2004
27,112
318
126
We're a big country, a trillion dollars doesn't mean what it used to. 40,000,000 people with debt roughly equivalent on average to the average automobile debt doesn't have to be an unworkable problem. People support Bernie over this issue because they're either pathetic failures unable to pay things back, morons with no common sense when it comes to taken out loans or saving money, or simply greedy people that want their gibsmedat at the expense of the rest of the country.
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
20,436
3,549
126
We have 1.3 Trillion dollars in student loan debt

We also have over $1T in loans for an incredibly depreciable asset: cars

I'm not saying student loans aren't an issue but the focus is skewed especially when you consider that you are still likely to earn $1,000,000 more over your lifetime if you get a college degree. A return of $1M on $10-30k is pretty good. Far better investment than the $1+T in loans people have for their cars

http://www.wsj.com/articles/total-u-s-auto-lending-surpasses-1-trillion-for-first-time-1439478198
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,420
14,322
136
Bernie has no concept about how to fix anything except for make other people pay for it. Why? It perpetuates his, and his ilk's, worthlessness to society. Leeches only know how to leech and create more leaches.
I love this conversation. Bernie's plan to invest in higher education is socialism, other people's money, worthless leeches. While Trump's plan to protect the wages of American workers whose jobs that can be easily done by unskilled child laborers in developing countries is apparently some kind of capitalist ideal.
 

mizzou

Diamond Member
Jan 2, 2008
9,734
54
91
Millenials don't want to sacrifice by driving a beater car or going out to eat, etc.?

Sounds like every other generation since WWII in my opinion.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,005
49,782
136
I love this conversation. Bernie's plan to invest in higher education is socialism, other people's money, worthless leeches. While Trump's plan to protect the wages of American workers whose jobs that can be easily done by unskilled child laborers in developing countries is apparently some kind of capitalist ideal.

Artificially protecting uncompetitive jobs isn't giving free money to the people who have those jobs, it's loving America. Paying for people to become educated so they aren't stuck in uncompetitive jobs is communism.

Bernie's college plan is dumb, but not because its goal is dumb. He just came up with a stupid and completely unrealistic way to accomplish a good goal.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Personal debt and government debt are nothing alike. This is economics 101 stuff.

I really hate that Krugman started pushing that idea.

An individual cant get funding like the government and does not have to pay interest like the government. That does not mean they are nothing a like.

The main difference is that the government can tax a third party to pay for their debt. To an extreme there could come a time when a government cant get funding aka Greece. The US is far too large, so instead of not getting funding, we get a global recession.

That said, there is a debt to be paid. You pay that debt through inflation which slows the economy, or a direct tax that slows the economy. As with all debt, if your net growth is higher then its worth the debt. But, to say that they are nothing alike is wrong. They are very much a like in most ways, but the government has options that individuals and smaller firms do not in that it can print money or displace its costs.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,005
49,782
136
I really hate that Krugman started pushing that idea.

An individual cant get funding like the government and does not have to pay interest like the government. That does not mean they are nothing a like.

Paul Krugman didn't start pushing this idea, it's been a basic part of econ 101 for decades if not longer. Government debt and household debt are completely different in almost every way it matters.

The main difference is that the government can tax a third party to pay for their debt. To an extreme there could come a time when a government cant get funding aka Greece. The US is far too large, so instead of not getting funding, we get a global recession.

This is not the main difference in any way. Trying to compare the US to Greece shows a similar, but equally basic misunderstanding of how government debt works. Much like how household debt and US debt are nothing alike, Greek debt and US debt are nothing alike.

Here are a few ways that government debt and household debt are different.

1. Governments are effectively immortal, meaning the debt never has to be paid back, merely rolled over indefinitely. Household debts are considered within a single lifetime time horizon, something that is totally illogical for governments.

2. Governments are social organizations that are owned and controlled by their populations, who are by and large the same people who invest in their debt. Unlike a house that owes debt to the bank, our government mostly owes it to us. When you owe the bank $100, that's -$100 from your balance sheet. When the US owes a citizen of the US $100 that's a wash as far as our country is concerned.

3. A household paying off its debt would be a good thing. If the US paid off its entire national debt that would probably cause the collapse of the global financial system.

That said, there is a debt to be paid. You pay that debt through inflation which slows the economy, or a direct tax that slows the economy. As with all debt, if your net growth is higher then its worth the debt. But, to say that they are nothing alike is wrong. They are very much a like in most ways, but the government has options that individuals and smaller firms do not in that it can print money or displace its costs.

Inflation does not inherently slow the economy, in fact modest, sustained inflation is associated with superior GDP growth. To see how wrong that logic is that would presume that deflation grows the economy when in fact it is associated with catastrophic depressions.

We should never, ever make the mistake of treating government debt like household debt. If you do that it's a one way ticket to some really bad economic analysis.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
I love this conversation. Bernie's plan to invest in higher education is socialism, other people's money, worthless leeches. While Trump's plan to protect the wages of American workers whose jobs that can be easily done by unskilled child laborers in developing countries is apparently some kind of capitalist ideal.
There is a huge difference. He is advocating giving free education to anybody that can fog a mirror, regardless of ability, motivation, and outcome. This provides no societal gain and is ultimately the real goal of socialism, lowering the bar for everybody so even the most idiotic can be "even".

Protecting industry from some competitive practices, such as foreign government subsidies, currency manipulation...etc, is not socialism, it is rational capitalism. This is ultimately the problem with anarchocapitalists /libertopians. They see everything in a vacuum.

Take the ex im bank for example. Terrible from the basis of capitalism, as long as it is capitalism in a vacuum. However, outside of the vacuum, every country has one. Without it we would be putting put major exporters at an international disavantage.

Bernie only sees the problem through the vacuum of big government. He refuses to see that universities are big governments gone amuck. But those are his type of people. Liberal socialist fuckwits who rarely have ever held a real job
 
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Subyman

Moderator <br> VC&G Forum
Mar 18, 2005
7,876
32
86
Well, this one is also only undergraduates, but you can't neglect the impact of private universities.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/innovations/wp/2013/09/24/five-myths-about-college-debt/



Basically, ~10% of college graduates are idiots, ~50% are between $0 and $10k, and those in between are somewhere in the middle. Not any kind of crisis.

Nah, you can't include those without debt in our discussion. We are talking about the average debt for borrowers, not average debt of everyone including those without any debt. Those without debt likely got full-ride scholarships, rich parents paid, etc.

Looking at those numbers, 55% of borrowers have a debt of at least $20k. A full quarter of those borrowing are in debt $30k or more.

I'm not sure how this isn't an issue especially when it has been shown that people are having a harder time getting a job in their field out of college. When you pull back away from the percentages and look at the numbers of people coming out of schools with large amounts of debt then it starts to hit home.

That would mean 715,000 people graduating with a bachelors degree have at least $20k of debt before even starting the first day of their career. That absolutely has an impact on people.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Paul Krugman didn't start pushing this idea, it's been a basic part of econ 101 for decades if not longer. Government debt and household debt are completely different in almost every way it matters.

This is not the main difference in any way. Trying to compare the US to Greece shows a similar, but equally basic misunderstanding of how government debt works. Much like how household debt and US debt are nothing alike, Greek debt and US debt are nothing alike.

I said that the US and Greece are different. Greece as a government did run out of the ability to get loans from any other group than the EU. Both the US and Greece have a government. You may want to reread that again because you should be able to see that I was not saying that what happened to Greece would happen to the US.

Here are a few ways that government debt and household debt are different.

1. Governments are effectively immortal, meaning the debt never has to be paid back, merely rolled over indefinitely. Household debts are considered within a single lifetime time horizon, something that is totally illogical for governments.

Government can get debt in two ways. It can borrow money from others, or it can spend more than it takes in. If the gov borrows money from others, then the debt is very much like private debt. There is a fee to that money that must be paid. Not paying it will incur fees just like private debt.

What is different is that the government can spend more than it takes in and just print more money. That causes inflation though which is effectively a tax on its people and or all of the world depending on the country.

There comes a point when the fee of holding either debt costs more than the benefit of the debt, which is very much like private debt. Unless the debt is used to grow, it hurts the holder of the debt.

2. Governments are social organizations that are owned and controlled by their populations, who are by and large the same people who invest in their debt. Unlike a house that owes debt to the bank, our government mostly owes it to us. When you owe the bank $100, that's -$100 from your balance sheet. When the US owes a citizen of the US $100 that's a wash as far as our country is concerned.

Not so if the government owes a foreign government.

While the government holds that debt its painless, but once the government has to pay for that debt then you see the effect.

3. A household paying off its debt would be a good thing. If the US paid off its entire national debt that would probably cause the collapse of the global financial system.

In the current world sure. But, it does not prove your point to me. If any single person held as much debt as the US government does, it would be the exact same. The US government is far more trusted which is why they were able to get as much debt as they have.

Inflation does not inherently slow the economy, in fact modest, sustained inflation is associated with superior GDP growth. To see how wrong that logic is that would presume that deflation grows the economy when in fact it is associated with catastrophic depressions.

Inflation does not inherently grow the economy either. The reason why small amounts of inflation is presumed to be good, is because it gives a slight incentive to spend money. There is almost zero difference between zero inflation and .001 inflation in terms of growth. The reason we shoot for some inflation is that its a cheaper way of taxing people for projects.

Deflation is bad but not sure what that has to do with this.

We should never, ever make the mistake of treating government debt like household debt. If you do that it's a one way ticket to some really bad economic analysis.

But they have overlap. To say they are completely different is wrong. Both have negative effects if you have too much.
 
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