Millennials on Their Student Loan Dept: Out of Sight, Out of Mind.

[Bart*Simpson]

Vote bernie to fix it or vote conservaterrorist to have no plan to fix this.

Bernie is not going to fix it. He wants to get elected by PROMISING to fix it.

And any fix he does deliver might do for education what Obamacare has done for health insurance.

 

[fskimospy]

Post #67 is actually what you're going to point to as your previously addressing the specific topics I brought up? Really? Wow....just wow. I have no words.

No, I was pointing out that your precious statement that I had omitted other costs was false. It remains false. Then you tried to backtrack and say that because I hadn't talked about it enough or mentioned that cost by name that it somehow amounted to the same thing.

If you were more mature you would simply apologize and move on. I'm not shocked that you are not, haha.

I read it and recall that it is was quite clear on the adverse impact of financial aid on private and public (out-of-state tuition) colleges with the only mixed effect being on public (in-state tuition) colleges.

Nope, it sure doesn't say that. I guess it explains a lot about how easy it is to dupe you when you only read the parts that tell you what you want to hear. I would suggest you go read it again.

The issue is complex and there are many factors that have significantly contributed to the problem...exactly as I said. Your myopic focus on the State funding decline being the boomers fault is horse shit. Although State funding has declined over the years, the decrease has been largely offset by increased Federal funding since 2002.

My focus isn't myopic, this is a larger discussion about how the baby boomers are entitled and selfish, and that's one example of it. How is this confusing to you?

So your little schtick that boomer's are somehow running away from paying is just plain fantasy on your part. We pay. We paid for our education, our children's educations and YOUR apparently substandard education where personal agenda trumps objective and relatively balanced reasoning.

You didn't pay for your education, your parents did. (As a generation at least.)

You paid a lot less of the total cost of your children's education than your parents did.

You didn't pay a dime for mine unless you're going to say that your employer bought you a house.

You can keep trying to insult me all you want, it doesn't bother me. You're pretty clearly emotionally invested in getting one over on me, but I truly don't care. If you try hard enough and long enough I'm sure you will eventually succeed, but what's the point? One of the reasons I tweak you is because you react so strongly to it and so you're just feeding it. Why not save yourself from embarrassment and me from my own personality flaws by moving past it?

 

[Fern]

Who do you think? State and local governments funded much, much more of the cost of attendance at public universities in the past, meaning the average graduate finished with small debts at most. Governments of today, overwhelmingly controlled by boomers, have drastically cut funding for higher education, as shown in the charts I linked before. They've offloaded the cost of attendance from taxpayers (boomers, mostly) to students (not boomers, mostly). That's called skipping out on the bill.
-snip-

I'm interested in this, but you haven't made your case. Those graphs you linked start at year 2000. So, that's not relevant to Baby Boomers.

(BTW, the age group you identified is better described as the Generation Jones. Much research has been done on this and the characteristics and attitudes of this group are significantly different than earlier Boomers.)

This info seems to say that govt spending on education during the period from approx 1982 to 2010 has steadily increased. This contradicts your claim. http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/education_spending

Fern

 

[CountZero]

No, actually he is dead wrong. I am 61 years old and the only thing I am entitled to is what I have earned. Most in this age group feel this way also. We don't want a hand out or someone to pay for my stupid mistakes. I don't blame my screw ups on my parents or anyone else.

There are a few bad apples in every basket, the Millennials just have that multiplied by a few million or so.

Get over yourself. EVERY generation from *at least* the boomers forward have been entitled prima donnas especially in the eyes of the previous generations.

You can pretend you are a special snowflake in that group but it doesn't change anything.

It was amusing to watch boomers and boomer icons change into that which they fought against. It is amusing to watch my generation do the same thing now. It will be amusing to watch millenials do the same.

TL;DR: Same S*&%, Different Generation Name

 

[Fern]

eskimospy is right there tbh. Tons of has-beens in their 40s and 50s, feeling entitled to jobs that only God Emperor Trump can bring back from Mexico and China. Not apologizing for entitlement found in my own generation, but every age group has its share.

People opposed to outsourcing and wanting good jobs now amounts to an entitlement attitude?

Fern

 

[Fern]

So we have a person (eskimospy in this case) claiming that others are entitled and selfish. His evidence that they are entitled and selfish is that they won't pay more of his costs (college).

So who's the entitled one here?

Fern

 

[HamburgerBoy]

Basically, yeah. Every job that the government protects from foreign competition is effectively a form of welfare. In a true 100% capitalist society, government would allow any business to hire any employee it felt like, for whatever wage it felt like. It's a fact that baby boomers faced less international competition, and I'd imagine they had better union protection as well. That's the result of a government more protectionist (and "lucky" if that's the right word for being around at the right time to sell goods to a post-WW2 Europe), and because it's not as sustainable now as it used to be, the boomers are beginning to panic with their poor retirement savings and their dwindling job opportunities. The result of this panic? Entitlement to jobs, denigration of immigrants and international trade.

EDIT: irt your first post above

 

[CountZero]

So we have a person (eskimospy in this case) claiming that others are entitled and selfish. His evidence that they are entitled and selfish is that they won't pay more of his costs (college).

So who's the entitled one here?

Fern

What about working your way through school?
http://www.theatlantic.com/educatio...h-of-working-your-way-through-college/359735/

1979 - 182 hours minimum wage to cover a year of tuition
2013 - 991 hours minimum wage to cover a year of tuition

Maybe millenials just want the same educational options at the same relative costs as was available only a few generations ago. Raise minimum wage, cut tuition or pay the cost gap via grants (aka taxes) but calling them overly entitled while ignoring things like this is ignoring reality.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

^ Oh yeah good point.

Those damn baby boomers and their entitlement to a higher minimum wage.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

That being said, I certainly see no reason why we need additional college funding beyond what we already have. A person with poor/average parents that attends a good public school, in-state, should be able to cover most of tuition and books through grants provided their grades are good enough. If they can't, a mixture of federal loans and work-study opportunities (e.g. shelving books in the library) will cover it. The real sources of debt among college graduates are from private scam universities, and from post-Bachelor's students (e.g. law students, medical students, Master's-in-Igloo-Aesthetics students). If a person can't pay back a ~$10-20k debt over a lifetime, how in the hell do these people even afford rent or car payments?

 

[CountZero]

That being said, I certainly see no reason why we need additional college funding beyond what we already have. A person with poor/average parents that attends a good public school, in-state, should be able to cover most of tuition and books through grants provided their grades are good enough. If they can't, a mixture of federal loans and work-study opportunities (e.g. shelving books in the library) will cover it. The real sources of debt among college graduates are from private scam universities, and from post-Bachelor's students (e.g. law students, medical students, Master's-in-Igloo-Aesthetics students). If a person can't pay back a ~$10-20k debt over a lifetime, how in the hell do these people even afford rent or car payments?

In summary IMO a cap on federal loans (which already exists) and making any private student loan dischargeable in bankruptcy would go very far in controlling many of the issues at play.

On individual items I hear about this grant stuff but when I went to school (1997-2001) my parents making median income meant no grants at all, maybe that is different now. Also work-study was appallingly bad compared to just straight working for the university (which is what I did). When I graduated you had to have > $30k in debt to get on any of the long term payback plans. Still doesn't answer your general question on how they buy a car if $10k over 10 years at 3% interest is too much.

 

[Fern]

What about working your way through school?
http://www.theatlantic.com/educatio...h-of-working-your-way-through-college/359735/

1979 - 182 hours minimum wage to cover a year of tuition
2013 - 991 hours minimum wage to cover a year of tuition

Maybe millenials just want the same educational options at the same relative costs as was available only a few generations ago. Raise minimum wage, cut tuition or pay the cost gap via grants (aka taxes) but calling them overly entitled while ignoring things like this is ignoring reality.

I have not called millenials entitled for complaining about the costs of education. Indeed, I have complained about the cost of college. I have a son in college now.

However, I disagree that the solution to unreasonable college costs is having someone else pay for it. How about we fix the real problem: the costs?

Another positive step is for those wanting to be college students to make better decisions. Paying $25k or more per year for college to obtain an economically worthless degree is a poor choice. It does not become a good choice because someone else pays for it. How about just not doing it?

And if one is not going to college for the economic benefit, one should not complain about the lack of an economic benefit.

Fern

 

[LegendKiller]

Eski is quite right that state budgets have declined. However, school budgets have swelled, massively. I looked at this for Clemson on here a few years ago, so lets start there.


http://www.clemson.edu/administration/documents/budget.pdf

D. Financial Challenges
State support cuts:
o Education and General $26.8 Million
o Public Service Activities $13.9 Million
o Endowment support decline $5.0 Million
o Total Cuts in Funding $45.7 Million
State funding now accounts for 16.5% of Clemson‟s budget
Per-student educational funding is more than 40% less than it was in the early 1970s,
adjusted for inflation

Looking at their 2007 budget, it went from $604mm to $989mm in 16-17, a 63.7% increase. During that time State appropriations went from $145mm to $109mm, or from 24.1% to 11%. In order to keep the same %, the state would have needed to increase the budget to $238mm. Instead, student fees went from $166 (27.5%) to $354mm (35.9%)

During that time Instruction costs went from $138 to $207. While Research went from $103mm to $152mm and Scholarships went from $82 to $105. Auxillary went from $79 to $154.

The Auxiliary Enterprises expense budget is expected to increase 19.3% or
$24.9M in FY 2015-16. The majority of this growth is attributable to a renegotiated
external contract for CCIT which includes modernization and expanded functionality.
Other increases include Athletics conference distribution and ticket sales, as well
as a modest 3.0% increase in Housing and Dining fees, which will help support the
cost of mandatory inflationary costs. The Auxiliary Enterprises budget is expected to
represent 15.6% of the University’s total resources, an increase from 13.7% in FY
2014-15. (This percentage of FY 2014-15 budget is calculated from the revised initial
budget for FY 2014-15.)

I couldn't find anything prior to that.

However, if we were to look at the cost per student for Clemson, we would find that it went from 18k to 23k. That means per student the Clemson annual budget was $35k. Now it is $43k, an increase of 22.8%. That's in a time the budget would increase 14% to keep up with inflation.

I wish I could see it longer-term than that.

Basically, budgets have gone up, funding sources have gone down, so tuition skyrockets.

 

[Tab]

So we have a person (eskimospy in this case) claiming that others are entitled and selfish. His evidence that they are entitled and selfish is that they won't pay more of his costs (college).

So who's the entitled one here?

Fern

Both parties.

Prior to the 90s, Colleges received much more funding through the State and Federal Governments. It's misleading to argue that merely millennials are the only ones asking for free stuff when Baby Boomers went through Colleges with subsides.

 

[Fern]

Both parties.

Prior to the 90s, Colleges received much more funding through the State and Federal Governments. It's misleading to argue that merely millennials are the only ones asking for free stuff when Baby Boomers went through Colleges with subsides.

The chart I linked in post #103 seems to say otherwise. The 3rd chart appears to show college funding from govt sources (see the red portion). It doesn't look to me that college funding has been reduced.

The 1st chart looks to be all govt funded education (i.e., not just college); looks to me that funding has pretty much steadily increased beginning in the early 80's.

It seems to me that millennials are getting as much, if not more, govt funding for college. The problem is the crazy increase in tuition. I don't see how that problem is solved by throwing more money at it. Millennials should do what other people have done when prices rise to unacceptable levels: Don't buy the product.

If I had to go through the system again and couldn't score a scholarship I'd go to CC for the 1st two years.

When enrollment drops, colleges will be hit and start paying attention.

Fern

 

[fskimospy]

So we have a person (eskimospy in this case) claiming that others are entitled and selfish. His evidence that they are entitled and selfish is that they won't pay more of his costs (college).

So who's the entitled one here?

Fern

As I never said anyone should pay more of my college costs, that only leaves one party to be entitled and selfish doesn't it, hahaha. You should read threads more closely in the future.

I spent seven years of my life in the military in part specifically so that I could cover the costs of college. People like DSF tried to claim that because the GI Bill was part of my terms of employment there that somehow someone else was paying for my college. That of course is like saying your employer is paying your mortgage because you use the money you get from him to do it.

Boomers pay a much smaller share of the cost of college today than was paid for them in the past, despite a college degree being more important for financial success. You might try to argue as others have that the real issue is that tuition has increased. Guess who has been in charge of functionally every institution that would affect tuition prices? Boomers.

 

[fskimospy]

Eski is quite right that state budgets have declined. However, school budgets have swelled, massively. I looked at this for Clemson on here a few years ago, so lets start there.

http://www.clemson.edu/administration/documents/budget.pdf

Looking at their 2007 budget, it went from $604mm to $989mm in 16-17, a 63.7% increase. During that time State appropriations went from $145mm to $109mm, or from 24.1% to 11%. In order to keep the same %, the state would have needed to increase the budget to $238mm. Instead, student fees went from $166 (27.5%) to $354mm (35.9%)

During that time Instruction costs went from $138 to $207. While Research went from $103mm to $152mm and Scholarships went from $82 to $105. Auxillary went from $79 to $154.

I couldn't find anything prior to that.

However, if we were to look at the cost per student for Clemson, we would find that it went from 18k to 23k. That means per student the Clemson annual budget was $35k. Now it is $43k, an increase of 22.8%. That's in a time the budget would increase 14% to keep up with inflation.

I wish I could see it longer-term than that.

Basically, budgets have gone up, funding sources have gone down, so tuition skyrockets.

If you look at the charts I supplied earlier it tells a more complete story, one that's really interesting. Basically in terms of public colleges two different things have happened: public research universities have seen government funding significantly decline but they have also increased their per-student spending dramatically. In those cases you're totally right that the universities are at least partially to blame for tuition hikes.

The other case is community colleges. They actually spend considerably less per student than they used to, but government funding cuts have been so deep that they are still forced to raise fees.

 

[poofyhairguy]

This is the liberal mindset. For some reason they feel government should manage every aspect of their lives.

Heck yeah! Liberals love to manage our lives, like what kind of abortions we can have, or what types of drugs we can ingest, or if we can sell our bodies for prostitution, or....

Oh wait....

Truth is neither side of the political fence has a monopoly on authoritarians. Both sides have people who want to tell you how to live, what to do. Many many conservatives want someone to manage their lives and the lives of others, hence why Trump got so popular.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

If you look at the charts I supplied earlier it tells a more complete story, one that's really interesting. Basically in terms of public colleges two different things have happened: public research universities have seen government funding significantly decline but they have also increased their per-student spending dramatically. In those cases you're totally right that the universities are at least partially to blame for tuition hikes.
<snip>

Those charts are very deceiving as they don't show the huge rise in Federal funding since 2002 that largely offsets the declines in State funding. The real issue is cost.

 

[werepossum]

What about working your way through school?
http://www.theatlantic.com/educatio...h-of-working-your-way-through-college/359735/

1979 - 182 hours minimum wage to cover a year of tuition
2013 - 991 hours minimum wage to cover a year of tuition

Maybe millenials just want the same educational options at the same relative costs as was available only a few generations ago. Raise minimum wage, cut tuition or pay the cost gap via grants (aka taxes) but calling them overly entitled while ignoring things like this is ignoring reality.

That is a good point.

As I never said anyone should pay more of my college costs, that only leaves one party to be entitled and selfish doesn't it, hahaha. You should read threads more closely in the future.

I spent seven years of my life in the military in part specifically so that I could cover the costs of college. People like DSF tried to claim that because the GI Bill was part of my terms of employment there that somehow someone else was paying for my college. That of course is like saying your employer is paying your mortgage because you use the money you get from him to do it.

Boomers pay a much smaller share of the cost of college today than was paid for them in the past, despite a college degree being more important for financial success. You might try to argue as others have that the real issue is that tuition has increased. Guess who has been in charge of functionally every institution that would affect tuition prices? Boomers.

I agree that benefit is part of your job compensation, but we still pay it. It's government, we pay everything government spends. Boomers being in charge of everything, we are also responsible for you getting your bennies.

And you are welcome.

Heck yeah! Liberals love to manage our lives, like what kind of abortions we can have, or what types of drugs we can ingest, or if we can sell our bodies for prostitution, or....

Oh wait....

Truth is neither side of the political fence has a monopoly on authoritarians. Both sides have people who want to tell you how to live, what to do. Many many conservatives want someone to manage their lives and the lives of others, hence why Trump got so popular.

True. Conservatives want to use the power of government to make Americans behave the way we Americans have always behaved. Progressives want to use the power of government to make Americans behave the way progressives feel they should behave. Only libertarians and classical liberals make any effort to not use the power of government to control people's behavior. And that's not even everyone who calls himself libertarian; Ron Paul is fine with stringent abortion restrictions. In my opinion, libertarianism today is focusing far too much on corporate freedom at the expense of personal freedom.

 

[fskimospy]

Those charts are very deceiving as they don't show the huge rise in Federal funding since 2002 that largely offsets the declines in State funding. The real issue is cost.

Those charts are zero percent deceiving as they show total costs. Did you not read them?

 

[poofyhairguy]

Conservatives want to use the power of government to make Americans behave the way we like to pretend that white Americans have always behaved but really only behaved that way for a short window of time.

Fixed it for you. There are plenty of examples of Americans not acting like the Leave it to Beaver fake standards of the 1950s:

-Americans were doing drugs long before they were made illegal. For example I am sure you already know Coca Cola had cocaine in it, along with another dozen examples I could mention

-Abortion was pretty much legal prior to the The Comstock Act of 1873

-Some Americans never accepted a ban on prostitutes, like the state of Nevada for example

-Heck, "under God" (aka our super important Judeo-Christian heritage that authoritarian conservatives cling to as a reason for such laws) wasn't even a thing until the communists scared us into adding it in the mid 20th century.

I could go on, but you get the point.

Progressives want to use the power of government to make Americans behave the way progressives feel they should behave.

Same as conservatives. The difference is how they feel people should behave.

In my opinion, libertarianism today is focusing far too much on corporate freedom at the expense of personal freedom.

I disagree, I was in the Libertarian Party for years and I think they push personal freedom just as much as corporate freedom. The problem is that Libertarians often align with social conservatives politically, and social conservatives care less about corporate restrictions than personal restrictions. At some point practicality is what rules the day, if Rand Paul or his dad didn't pass the abortion litmus test they would be separated from any practical political power.

 

[fskimospy]

That is a good point.


I agree that benefit is part of your job compensation, but we still pay it. It's government, we pay everything government spends. Boomers being in charge of everything, we are also responsible for you getting your bennies.

And you are welcome.


True. Conservatives want to use the power of government to make Americans behave the way we Americans have always behaved. Progressives want to use the power of government to make Americans behave the way progressives feel they should behave. Only libertarians and classical liberals make any effort to not use the power of government to control people's behavior. And that's not even everyone who calls himself libertarian; Ron Paul is fine with stringent abortion restrictions. In my opinion, libertarianism today is focusing far too much on corporate freedom at the expense of personal freedom.

Haha, I never thanked you nor would I. I worked for my money and benefits in a fair trade. Do you go around thanking your company's customers for your salary? I doubt it. You earned that money by working for it, not because they were doing you a favor.

 

[werepossum]

Haha, I never thanked you nor would I. I worked for my money and benefits in a fair trade. Do you go around thanking your company's customers for your salary? I doubt it. You earned that money by working for it, not because they were doing you a favor.

Um, of course I go around thanking our company's customers for using us. They could be using someone else.

 

[LegendKiller]

Those charts are very deceiving as they don't show the huge rise in Federal funding since 2002 that largely offsets the declines in State funding. The real issue is cost.

What huge increase in federal funding?