Miners messing with the supply chain again?

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tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
7,355
642
121
How much do you expect a gaming chip of Vega to go for with 2x the performance of the RX 580?
 

imported_jjj

Senior member
Feb 14, 2009
660
430
136
I wouldn't make assumptions about gaming perf but Nvidia's price points set certain limits and then they need to find the right balance between margins and volumes so has to be somewhere between 500 and 700$.
Worst case scenario it is competitive with Nvidia for the price(they can't offer less), best case it beats Nvidia for the price by a good margins but not gonna make any baseless guesses on gaming perf.
For mining we have TFLOPS numbers so we know where Vega is,more or less.

No discussion of nvidia products in the amd subform, including discussions of nvidia products vis-a-vis amd products.

AT Moderator ElFenix
 
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DidelisDiskas

Senior member
Dec 27, 2015
233
21
81
So is this crap going to continue for long? I just got a call today that my rx 470 red devil won't be returning from the warranty service, so they gave me an option to choose a new card at a similar price point - and there are no 470/570/480/580's available, at least not at a similar price point.
 

Bacon1

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2016
3,430
1,018
91
So is this crap going to continue for long? I just got a call today that my rx 470 red devil won't be returning from the warranty service, so they gave me an option to choose a new card at a similar price point - and there are no 470/570/480/580's available, at least not at a similar price point.

What did they give you an option to get then?
 

DidelisDiskas

Senior member
Dec 27, 2015
233
21
81
What did they give you an option to get then?

I did not go into details on the phone, but i there are a few nvidia models, or just take the money i guess. I'm not interested in nvidia cards (because of the proprietary drivers on linux), especially the 3gb 1060's, so i'm thinking that maybe i should wait this out, but i'm not all that keen on waiting too long.
 

Bacon1

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2016
3,430
1,018
91
I did not go into details on the phone, but i there are a few nvidia models, or just take the money i guess. I'm not interested in nvidia cards (because of the proprietary drivers on linux), especially the 3gb 1060's, so i'm thinking that maybe i should wait this out, but i'm not all that keen on waiting too long.

Isn't red devil Powercolor? I didn't realize they did Nvidia cards. Did they give you an ETA for new AMD GPUs?
 

DidelisDiskas

Senior member
Dec 27, 2015
233
21
81
Isn't red devil Powercolor? I didn't realize they did Nvidia cards. Did they give you an ETA for new AMD GPUs?

No, i had an RX 470 and the estimated time of arrival for the new ones is later than mostly every where else in Europe. Though now having a quick glance at these 500 series rebrands, seems that they come with terrible presets for power consumption. Found only one 6-pin version and it's a one fan model. Hm...
 

MrTeal

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2003
3,586
1,746
136
Powercolor RMA is absolutely terrible. I sent in a dual core 390 Devil 13 in January because the whole plastic blade assembly on one fan came off the magnet. I was planning on just replacing the fan, but decided to spend the $30 shipping it back to them since I figured it would hurt resale value to have a Sapphire fan on there instead. They refused to do the repair unless I sent in all the plastic bits, so I had to stick those in an envelope and mail them in too.

It wasn't until May that I got an email saying my RMA is approved, they don't have any 390 Dual Cores and they would be sending me two 480s. After 5 months I finally got a couple crappy obviously post-RMA 480s in antistatic bags with no boxes that can't run at full speed without crashing. Powercolor won't do anything unless I pay return shipping to the US again.

Seriously, the only thing wrong with that card was one fan. They could have shipped it to me and I would have replaced it myself.
 

3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
11,951
204
106
It does expose a problem in their supply chain in that they under forecast sales in a big way, and service levels have dropped because of it. This also reveals how slow they are to react to demand changes.

The other thing is that it looks good on the balance sheet, but it won't affect things like Steam's hardware survey. In other words, let's say that Steam's hardware survey says that AMD has 20% of the market. But that would ignore miners, who buy a lot of GPUs for such a small group. I'm not sure what AMD's true market share is (of all GPUs sold), but it is higher than 20%.
I don't think anyone seriously uses Steam's hardware survey to determine market share. Except on enthusiast forums to brag/start flame wars.
 
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3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
11,951
204
106
For one thing, miners don't really count in steam (or whatever) stats. So, yeah, AMD is selling cards, but, it isn't reflected anyplace but mining.
Main issue is, if AMD would have seen the miner bubble expanding, they could have built more GPUs, and it wouldn't be a issue.
Now however, it takes 1-2 months to ramp up, and in those months sales are going to the competition.
If the mining craze bubble bursts, AMD is sitting on lots of inventory.
Which is what happened last time that created a huge bottleneck with Hawaii cards already in the supply chain.
 

DidelisDiskas

Senior member
Dec 27, 2015
233
21
81
Powercolor RMA is absolutely terrible. I sent in a dual core 390 Devil 13 in January because the whole plastic blade assembly on one fan came off the magnet. I was planning on just replacing the fan, but decided to spend the $30 shipping it back to them since I figured it would hurt resale value to have a Sapphire fan on there instead. They refused to do the repair unless I sent in all the plastic bits, so I had to stick those in an envelope and mail them in too.

It wasn't until May that I got an email saying my RMA is approved, they don't have any 390 Dual Cores and they would be sending me two 480s. After 5 months I finally got a couple crappy obviously post-RMA 480s in antistatic bags with no boxes that can't run at full speed without crashing. Powercolor won't do anything unless I pay return shipping to the US again.

Seriously, the only thing wrong with that card was one fan. They could have shipped it to me and I would have replaced it myself.

Ha! the only thing wrong with mine was also fans and they were working, it's just that they started to make this annoying sound. I thought that this would be an easy repair.... Can't say i'm sad about the situation, since the store will return the money i paid for the card.

It's interesting, that every retailer here gives a maximum of 12 month warranty on powercolor cards (mine was still 24 at the time), while all other brands get 36 months. I'm pretty sure i will not touch this brand again.
 

tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
7,355
642
121
Which is what happened last time that created a huge bottleneck with Hawaii cards already in the supply chain.
Yup, which is exactly what I explained to people that not all sales are equal. Miners are in it purely for arbitrage. It's vastly different than gamers who are in it for an enjoyment of some sorts.

It's unfortunate that amd has these great chips. And then miners eat them for breakfast. Then gamers who amd should EASILY have as consumers are out with a competing company's product, or no sale at all.

It's even unfortunate in Vega sense, because I know for me, I'll buy a second Vega chip if possible simply for the mining gains. But at the same time, I may not get an amd chip again, for a second time straight, due to being crowded out by miners and low supply.

It's a shame since amd doesn't want to potentially lose a sale, but it's definitely better for amd to convert long time product users than it is to gain short term arbitrage users.
 

3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
11,951
204
106
Yup, which is exactly what I explained to people that not all sales are equal. Miners are in it purely for arbitrage. It's vastly different than gamers who are in it for an enjoyment of some sorts.

It's unfortunate that amd has these great chips. And then miners eat them for breakfast. Then gamers who amd should EASILY have as consumers are out with a competing company's product, or no sale at all.

It's even unfortunate in Vega sense, because I know for me, I'll buy a second Vega chip if possible simply for the mining gains. But at the same time, I may not get an amd chip again, for a second time straight, due to being crowded out by miners and low supply.

It's a shame since amd doesn't want to potentially lose a sale, but it's definitely better for amd to convert long time product users than it is to gain short term arbitrage users.
Miners' dollars pay the bills just as well as gamers' dollars.
 

tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
7,355
642
121
Miners' dollars pay the bills just as well as gamers' dollars.
Short term yes.
This is why financial forecasting looks at quality of revenues and not just revenue.

In the real world, quality of revenues come into play.

You are 100% correct that they pay the bills both the same.

But that is just one side of the picture. In finance we look at the probability of these earnings being recurring, and for how long.

Again, this is why this is left to those in this field. Because consumers think in today's terms, and in finance we think in perpetuity.
 
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3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
11,951
204
106
Short term yes.
This is why financial forecasting looks at quality of revenues and not just revenue.

In the real world, quality of revenues come into play.

You are 100% correct that they pay the bills both the same.

But that is just one side of the picture. In finance we look at the probability of these earnings being recurring, and for how long.

Again, this is why this is left to those in this field. Because consumers think in today's terms, and in finance we think in perpetuity.


Sure, they can hurt future sales. But mostly by what AMD does in response. For example last time when they waited too long to respond and then ended up with a pile of unsold cards because the market collapsed before they could get them made and sold. Then they had to wait for partners to clear inventories.

Most enthusiasts (not fanbois who you can't reason with) have no issue switching teams if there's something better out there. AMD just needs to release exciting new product. That's something they've struggled with in recent years. The variable sync techs being brand specific can hurt, but it looks like Async is winning that battle.
 

guskline

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2006
5,338
476
126
I am not a miner (tried it a bit but wasn't interested.

Sure a gamer could moan that miners are buying up all the AMD cards but I look at it as miners are giving AMD a great market and allowing the RTG division to branch out and expand.

Miners MINE AWAY!

I'll keep my single RX480 under water until Big Vega is available.
 
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ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,425
8,388
126
problem with mining is that you don't get the network effects of game companies developing for your architecture's strengths.
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,785
136
It's unfortunate that amd has these great chips. And then miners eat them for breakfast. Then gamers who amd should EASILY have as consumers are out with a competing company's product, or no sale at all.

Is it entirely correct to put the blame on the mining craze for the supply/demand situation during the R9 290 generation?

Unlike those days, the mining cards are solely for RX470/480 class. RX 460/560 won't be used because its not fast enough for the price, and Vega will be too expensive and the hash rate gain will be little because it uses HBM.

If say next year, or the year after that the demand collapses, if AMD also has a noticeably better gaming card the negative impact will be minimal. Gamers would just buy the newest one. If AMD only gets re-branded cards, or the improvements per tier are minimal, then they'll be in trouble.

It's a double edged sword attacking a market because it creates potential supply-demand issues. It'll work better for the company just to forge on making a better product and meanwhile keep supply high enough to have everyone satisfied. Really though, making a better product(in this case a better gaming card) is what will minimize negative impact in case the demand crashes like last time.
 

SpaceBeer

Senior member
Apr 2, 2016
307
100
116
So now when it's impossible to find RX 570/580/470/480, and miners also buy GTX 1060 and GTX 1070, the best thing you can do is to buy 2x RX 560 for ~$230-240 and use them in CF mode
 

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
20,882
3,230
126
Sigh.... the 580 is a great gpu for those on a budget..

Guess not many people will have these gpu's now because mining rigs will have like 4-5 of them hoarded.
 
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obidamnkenobi

Golden Member
Sep 16, 2010
1,407
423
136
wow. I bought an rx470 for $200 last year, and now looks like they go for ~$300 on ebay?? Should I sell? If I could get 300 why not.. Question is what should I then get? 1060 or 1050Ti are tempting, both leaving me with extra cash. Are miners raising prices on Nvidia too, or is it just AMD as usual?
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,808
11,163
136
GPU mining had pretty much been dead until this happened.

No. There has been a huge pool of latent - if not active - mining capacity since at least early 2016, driven by ETH and later ZEC. Not to speak of XMR and some others.

For mining we have TFLOPS numbers so we know where Vega is,more or less.

Mining performance of modern ASIC-resistant altcoins is driven more by memory bandwidth and latency specific to the algorithm than anything else. So no, we really don't, outside of some runs of unoptimized ETH mining software on Vega FE. Though Vega FE is allegedly a beast mining XMR.
 
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