Miners might target Nvidia Maxwell next

[Shmee]

It is a deterrent, though may not be enough of one for some ppl, particularly miners. Also, I would agree that the 750ti isn't good for mining, but, future high end Maxwell may be. Time will tell. Keep in mind, with mining, power is mostly irrelevant, especially if you are going for density. The more hash the better, at least as of now, as nothing out there uses so much power to make mining unprofitable.

 

[Keysplayr]

Yes. The deterrent comment was meant for gamers, not miners.

 

[blackened23]

Whatever, its really far fetched.

Understatement of the year. And we can go back to the original claim. The original claim was MINING DOGECOIN. Overclocked. 20% powertune. Yes, apparently DOGECOIN was mined with 20% powertune at less power than a 7750. Some mythical 7870 mining DOGE with less power than a 7750. Alrighty then. Then there was mention of killawatt. Clearly killawatt wasn't used. But then....we'll go by AIDA power numbers. That statement alone, going by AIDA power numbers, is hilarious. AIDA.. REALLY. And then the kicker. An idle power consumption chart to solidify the claim. IDLE POWER CONSUMPTION CHART. Yes, all of this happened. And yes, 20 people come to the defense of this. This. Really happened. Yes, yes it did.

So let's review. A 7870 mining DOGE at 400KH on an overclocked 20% powertune card all the while using less power than a 7750. Yes, this claim happened. And someone is trying to tell me a 7870 at 400KH isn't being pushed to the limit. Alrighty then. Clearly there are forces at work in this thread that aren't worth bothering with.

That's pretty neat I guess. Anyway, I know what mining dogecoin does in terms of GPU use. It aint pretty. AND. This is 400KH. 400. KH. Are we going to pretend a 400KH 7870 is doing 70W? Really? One can talk about maxcoin all day long but the original claim was dogecoin @ 400KH on a 7870, a scrypt coin. And anyone who isn't nuts or trolling with ridiculous claims knows what's up with that. But we'll just pretend otherwise. It's not worth it. It'll just spawn 27 more ridiculous claims. Arguing with crazy just aint worth it. This I have come to learn.

There's really nothing left to be said about that. But anyway. Personally I am not a fan of mining as I mentioned earlier. I do think GM107 is very indicative of things to come because if a 60W TDP part is doing 265KH at stock, 300KH while overclocked, what happens when Maxwell is scaled upwards to 225-250W on GM200? I think the answer should be fairly easy to extrapolate. In any case, I am not a fan of the entire situation, because i'm a PC gamer that doesn't give a flip about mining. The design intent of Radeon and Geforce is and always has been gaming from the get-go. That's what I want a Maxwell for. So as hilarious as this entire mining situation will become (IMO), it's not something I care to see happen to either side. If someone likes mining that's great, just aint my thing.

 

[KingFatty]

As for price effects, I agree that many gamers have decided to go Nvidia for their next gaming card.

Another effect of price is that some people actually perceive the goodness of a thing based only on price. So an effect of the increase in AMD prices would cause such people to believe that AMD cards are suddenly better because of the price increase. I think these kind of people would be materialistic or not the researching type, who just make spur of the moment decisions. Probably not many computer enthusiasts are like this. But if you ask a lady shopping for her son which video card is the best, she might say the most expensive one is the best, and so high prices will increase the general perception of AMD branding.

Another pricing issue is I think Nvidia will really help out here, because they will release cards that are good at mining, and bring more fans into crypto currencies. This is the rising tide effect, raising all ships, because the more enthusiasts behind it, the more demand and volume, and that will raise crytpo coin values for everyone. So I am eagerly anticipating the new Nvidia cards, hope they kick some serious butt and balance things out for mining between AMD and Nvidia!

 

[Rikard]

I don't really know what the fuss is about. Looking at my notes from back when I did LTC mining, I pulled 257 W from the wall, and my idle was about 85 W. Assuming all that difference was the graphics card (hint: it wasn't), and assuming a 85% PSU efficiency the GPU only power draw would be about 146 W. Spending that power, I got 604 kH/s, so that would equate to a 4.1 on the chart from the OP. So it is worse than the much discussed 7870, but his values are not completely crazy compared to mine. It is all about undervolting while overclocking, people. It is not magic.

 

[TeknoBug]

I hope not, and I doubt it since 750/Ti can't be SLI'd, miners tend to stack 2-4 cards together.

If it does happen, then the prices of video cards in general will just be ridiculously higher than needed and investing in a console for gaming would end up being a cheaper solution.

 

[x3sphere]

I hope not, and I doubt it since 750/Ti can't be SLI'd, miners tend to stack 2-4 cards together.

If it does happen, then the prices of video cards in general will just be ridiculously higher than needed and investing in a console for gaming would end up being a cheaper solution.

You don't need SLI/CF for GPGPU tasks... in fact having it enabled often causes issues. The only downside to the 750 Ti is the low hash rate per slot. Smalltime miners may go for these but for the big operations it makes more sense for them to stick with 290/290x.

 

[3DVagabond]

If Nvidia became good at mining prices would go up across the board, they most certainly would not go down. If miners are purchasing all the cards supply dries up and prices skyrocket.

This would not stabilise prices, it would simply mean we pay more for less from both Nvidia and AMD.

This^ It would raise the prices to the value they represent to miners. Because of higher supply, mining inflation would be less than it is today, but it would still be there.

What about the decrease in AMD sales to gamers to go along with the increase in sales to miners? Surely one would have to agree that the price gouging of AMD cards serves as quite the deterrent for potential AMD buyers/gamers?

It doesn't matter. They are selling out. It doesn't matter who is buying them.

This could make AMD cards look like better values when prices do/might drop. You know, like the 780 @ $700 looked like a good value after Titan. Considering they are $500 now, it's obvious it was still terrible value, but it looked good at first.

 

[Keysplayr]

This^ It would raise the prices to the value they represent to miners. Because of higher supply, mining inflation would be less than it is today, but it would still be there.



It doesn't matter. They are selling out. It doesn't matter who is buying them.

This could make AMD cards look like better values when prices do/might drop. You know, like the 780 @ $700 looked like a good value after Titan. Considering they are $500 now, it's obvious it was still terrible value, but it looked good at first.

Well, they aren't selling out to gamers. Just miners.

 

[serpretetsky]

Well, they aren't selling out to gamers. Just miners.

I arrived kind of late to this dicussion, but he's simply pointing out that as far as AMD profits are concerned, in the immediate timeframe, AMD does not care who they sell to. Since AMD is selling out of all of their supplies, then if one gamer couldn't buy a card because one miner beat them to it (and paid a premium at that!) then AMD's profits don't change.

In fact, if AMD was the one actually setting these high prices, then AMD would LOVE the miners, who are willing to buyout all of their supplies and pay more money then gamers.

Now, this is assuming that buyers don't have any memory, and also dont get their feelings hurt. If all of the gamers right now are currently getting their feelings hurt, and they start saying things like "I'm never buying from AMD again!", then this can change things in the future. But if you imagine every buyer as a perfect buying agent that only cares about the current prices and buys the best bang for their buck, then AMD really has no reason to care if gamers aren't getting their cards, because for every gamer NOT buying a card, a miner IS buying a card.

If they weren't selling out then things might be different since AMD isn't the one raising the prices and then they might be selling less product then they wanted to.

 

[chimaxi83]

Well, they aren't selling out to gamers. Just miners.

1. Proof?
2. If true, what does it matter?

 

[Erenhardt]

EDIT:
Aida numbers were wrong. Aida power consumption is core voltage x VRM current. It is possible that Aida doesn't take power over PCIe into account, or is just simply rough approximation.

So, to clear things up I did some testing with system power consumption using Kill-A-Watt.
I disabled in BIOS everything I don't need. Turned off QnQ so it doesn't screw with my results by changing CPU speeds widely.
Here is a graph that shows system power consumption and GPU VRM current (from AIDA):

First things first.

Mining is less intensive than furmark by a lot. Not only system power usage is 30-45Watts lower, but I could cut another 0,1Volts off core.

Fan speed have a big impact on power consumption! It probably have a lot to do with VRM temps which go from 60'C when mining @0,95V to 95'C during furmark @1,25V. Not sure why the difference between quiet and uber custom fan profile is much wider during furmark than mining.

Idle power consumption was 93Watts.

mining system power consumption @0,95V was 179(Uber)/ 183(Quiet) Watts
mining system power consumption @1,25V was 249(Uber)/ 258(Quiet) Watts

Furmark power consumption @1,05V was 216(Uber)/ 230(Quiet) Watts
Furmark power consumption @1,25V was 277(Uber)/ 303(Quiet) Watts

Now isolating GPU power consumption by taking out Idle power consumption:

mining GPU power consumption @0,95V was 86(Uber)/ 90(Quiet) Watts
mining GPU power consumption @1,25V was 156(Uber)/ 165(Quiet) Watts

Furmark GPU power consumption @1,05V was 123(Uber)/ 137(Quiet) Watts
Furmark GPU power consumption @1,25V was 184(Uber)/ 210(Quiet) Watts

I have 82% efficiency (or lower at that load) Chieftec CFT-750 watt power supply:

mining GPU power consumption @0,95V was 70,52(Uber)/ 73,8(Quiet) Watts
mining GPUpower consumption @1,25V was 127,9(Uber)/ 135,3(Quiet) Watts

Furmark GPU power consumption @1,05V was 100,86(Uber)/ 109,6(Quiet) Watts
Furmark GPU power consumption @1,25V was 147,2(Uber)/ 172,2(Quiet) Watts

Comparing these values to aida current readings:

mining GPU power consumption @0,95V was 70,52(Uber)/ 73,8(Quiet) Watts AIDA(Uber):55AMPS(52,5Watts)
mining GPUpower consumption @1,25V was 127,9(Uber)/ 135,3(Quiet) Watts AIDA(Uber):92AMPS(115Watts)

Furmark GPU power consumption @1,05V was 100,86(Uber)/ 109,6(Quiet) Watts AIDA(Uber):83AMPS(78,87 Watts)
Furmark GPU power consumption @1,25V was 147,2(Uber)/ 172,2(Quiet) Watts AIDA(Uber):118AMPS(147,5 Watts)


While not most accurate, these results are very close to each other (Aida vs Kill-A-Watt).
Decreasing core voltage by 24%(16% for furmark) decreased:
mining power consumption by 44,9(Uber)/45,5(Quiet)%
Furmark power consumption by 31,5(Uber)/36,3(Quiet)%

Fan speed BY A LOT!
Test sample(Golden 7870 of Golden 7870's) Club3D HD7870 Coolstream:

Shoutout to Club3D for not voltage-locking thier cards!*
*These test were not sponsored by Club3D

I think voltage tuning is very interesting aspect of tweaking hardware. With proper tools this could be looked at closer and could possibly lead to many distressing conclusions. I think this matter deserves a separate thread, not only to stop derailing, but it completely changes the nature of a card.

Also, this little card took 172 Watts?! Holy moly, that is a lot for such small heatsink, VRM, ETC.

If the card takes 70Watts, can I safely unplug 2x6pin? Can something bad happen?

TL,DR: Bunch of numbers on how golden sample of golden samples is close to becoming Perpetuum-mobile heat(and crypto-coin) generator .

 

[blackened23]

LOL. What did I just read. Really. You don't have a golden sample. AIDA. And the killawatt that doesn't exist. You do have great fictional story ability, though.

Whatever. The outrageous stories are hopeless at this level. And they'll just keep coming. Not sure why anyone bothers to even say anything with insane stuff like this every other thread. /shrug

Okay. For the next two weeks, don't bother.
-- stahlhart

 

[Elfear]

LOL. What did I just read. Really. You don't have a golden sample. AIDA. And the killawatt that doesn't exist. You do have great fictional story ability, though.

Whatever. The outrageous stories are hopeless at this level. And they'll just keep coming. Not sure why anyone bothers to even say anything with insane stuff like this every other thread. /shrug

Do you have reason to doubt his character as a poster to the point that you believe he made that whole post up?

Erenhardt posted up hard numbers to back up his previous claims. Can you do the same to add some facts into all the speculation? Simply saying you THINK something is false multiple times in a sarcastic and condescending manner doesn't do anything for discussion.

 

[chimaxi83]

LOL. What did I just read. Really. You don't have a golden sample. AIDA. And the killawatt that doesn't exist. You do have great fictional story ability, though.

Whatever. The outrageous stories are hopeless at this level. And they'll just keep coming. Not sure why anyone bothers to even say anything with insane stuff like this every other thread. /shrug

Hey Blackened, what happened to you dude? Seriously?

 

[Erenhardt]

LOL. What did I just read. Really. You don't have a golden sample. AIDA. And the killawatt that doesn't exist. You do have great fictional story ability, though.

Whatever. The outrageous stories are hopeless at this level. And they'll just keep coming. Not sure why anyone bothers to even say anything with insane stuff like this every other thread. /shrug

And here go 2 hours of my work down the drain. Oh well, hopefully other people mining coins will see this and start to consider downvolting their cards, which can increase mining efficiency by up to 45%.

I made this short analysis for myself aswell. 400kh/s at 70-80 Watts > 5 kh/s/W and I can stick a bunch of 7870's without a need of new powersupply.

 

[Erenhardt]

I made a short analysis on downvolting GPU and power consumption benefits.
Don't want to post this wall of txt, so anyone interested can read it here:
http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=36103676&postcount=112

Long story short:

45% decrease in power consumption during DOGE minig just by reducing voltage from 1,25 do 0,95
30% decrease in power consumption in furmark.
Much quiet! Such ECO!

Decreasing voltage lets you keep your hashes (stock values) and save coin on power bill.

 

[3DVagabond]

And here go 2 hours of my work down the drain. Oh well, hopefully other people mining coins will see this and start to consider downvolting their cards, which can increase mining efficiency by up to 45%.

I made this short analysis for myself aswell. 400kh/s at 70-80 Watts > 5 kh/s/W and I can stick a bunch of 7870's without a need of new powersupply.

Don't worry, just because one member dismisses your work out of hand doesn't mean others don't appreciate it. :thumbsup:

 

[cmdrdredd]

Honestly, given the insane efficiency improvements with Maxwell - the real interesting aspect of this story is what happens when GM200 and GM204 are released and the Maxwell uarch is scaled with tons of CUDA cores. Kepler from what I remember scaled very linearly in this respect and there is no reason to expect otherwise from the large die Maxwell parts - given GM107s relative hashing performance, big Maxwell should outright beat AMD across the board in terms of hashrate. Ignoring the implications of the hash per watt of GM107 in terms of how it will directly affect the hashrate of big Maxwell, one would have to essentially wear blinders. GM200 and GM204 will be hashing monsters. It should be mentioned that the directly comparable AMD counterpart to the 750ti in terms of TDP is the R7-250 (65W TDP). The hashrate of that part is far lower than the 750ti.

Now with that stated - I am not a fan of this whatsoever. Personally I don't really care for mining and never have, as funny as this entire situation is i'd rather people just used these GPUs for gaming. I don't have any ill will toward those who do mine, it just isn't my thing. Anyone who's into it, cool. But as for me.....I want a Maxwell based GPU for PC gaming, which is what consumer level Radeons and Geforce cards are designed and marketed for in the first place.

My problem is that when it's time to buy a new card but they are all $200 over MSRP there's a problem and it pushes me toward consoles. I don't imagine I'd be the only one. You can buy a PS4 and a couple games for around $500 but a single higher end GPU that should cost $500 is now selling for $750. That's a problem to me and if Nvidia cards suffer this fate along with AMD, it will be 100% out of the question to upgrade again to me. It's not that I can't afford it, it's that I don't want to be gouged. Amazon stopped listing some of the 290x cards at all and only offer them from a third party unless you want a reference card. Looking at a MSI regular 290 on amazon says "usually ships in 1 to 3 months" that's seriously messed up.

 

[KompuKare]

@Erenhardt

Excellent work. I know there will moaners but given that you don't have a lab of testing equipment, you did well. Review sites do not go for this kind of detail which is fair enough it's not part of their remit. I fully understand why the Anandtech GPU testbed uses an LGA2011 IB-E platform. Fair enough (they want to show the GPU in ideal circumstance; or rather no point in benching with CPU limitet). But i7-4960X and LG2011 are very power hungry (230W running OCCT according this http://anandtech.com/show/7752/msi-x79agd45-plus-review-building-up/4), which is fine they are about pure performance. But most miners are about squeezing the max hash per watt.

Fan speed have a big impact on power consumption! It probably have a lot to do with VRM temps which go from 60'C when mining @0,95V to 95'C during furmark @1,25V. Not sure why the difference between quiet and uber custom fan profile is much wider during furmark than mining.

You didn't log temps: higher temps = more leakage = more power needed.
Hm, I don't think my mains power meter thing (Kill A Watt seems to a trademark for those sold in NA; available on ebay (everything is!) but no good in 220V Europe) is accurate enough to measure draw from fans. But I guess it could be done with a constant load (idle) and finding the point were the fan cannot cool the card down any more. Then try ramping the fan up further to find the power consumption of the fan itself. I would say only part of the difference you notices are the fan speeds, the rest is temp/leakage.

I would love to see some more tests about GPU temps, undervolting, leakage etc. Something like IDK's legendary i7K posts.

 

[KingFatty]

I didn't know the 7870 had an Uber mode and a Quiet mode, isn't that for 290 cards?

It seems counter-intuitive, but did you find that increasing fan speed could actually save power consumption? I mean the fans will take more power for them to spin faster, but then again, they are cooling the VRMs and GPU, and those will therefore use less power at that cooler temperature, compared to the previous hotter temperature. But is it a net savings in power consumption overall? Like just turn up the fans to 100% and you save power?

 

[3DVagabond]

My problem is that when it's time to buy a new card but they are all $200 over MSRP there's a problem and it pushes me toward consoles. I don't imagine I'd be the only one. You can buy a PS4 and a couple games for around $500 but a single higher end GPU that should cost $500 is now selling for $750. That's a problem to me and if Nvidia cards suffer this fate along with AMD, it will be 100% out of the question to upgrade again to me. It's not that I can't afford it, it's that I don't want to be gouged. Amazon stopped listing some of the 290x cards at all and only offer them from a third party unless you want a reference card. Looking at a MSI regular 290 on amazon says "usually ships in 1 to 3 months" that's seriously messed up.

I also believe that if nVidia cards were on par +/- with AMD cards for mining, they would suffer the same inflation. It's not just supply that's causing it, it's perceived value. If, for example, a 770 was as good as a 280X at mining people would pay more for it than they do for 280X's because it uses less power. If people are willing to pay more that will drive pricing up.

 

[Erenhardt]

These are my custom fan profiles - one stock (Uber) and one defined by me (Quiet)
Fans take little to no power (less than 1 Watt?).
I noticed that the moment I decrease the fan speed, temps (VRMs especially) sky-rocket - power consumption follows.
Or opposite, when I tested mining power consumption, I started with Quiet fan profile, and then run Uber mode round. Increasing fan speed lowered power consumption.

I will try to look more into VRM efficiency dependence on temperature, when I will have a while.

 

[nwo]

How did you undervolt your 7870s?

 

[Erenhardt]

I used sapphire Trixx previously, but now I'm using MSI Afterburner 2.3.0 because I don't need additional ranges offered by sapphire overclocking software. Afterburner have better monitoring tools aswell.

Sapphire TriXX can overvolt cards that Afterburner can't. That happened with my 7770 - voltage locked even with modded afterburner. installed TriXX and could go up to 1,3V

What is interesting is, you can mine with voltages that otherwise would result in driver crash or BSOD in any other workload. I had a hard time benching furmark @1,05V - crashed a couple of times. Mining at @0,95 crashed once, but I'm not sure if it wasn't something else that caused it.